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Do we need horrific aliens to inhabit derelict space stations and ships?

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Rec0n412, Oct 27, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Vigilance

    Vigilance Trainee Engineer

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation ;)
     
  2. Oselotti

    Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    Yea I know abiogenesis new and old versions :)

    But in generally I think space monsters should look like strange creatures from deep ocean or something. Or they could be something mysterious if they are intelligent. But if they are round head greys I will shoot instantly :D
    Seriously thinking alien can mean so many things that probably we all have very different idea. They can be even old alien probes. I'm happy with or without aliens. Anyway they should be very rare, if there's any.
     
  3. TechyBen

    TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    With no "real" aliens to point to in RL, then yes, all aliens would be "assumptions" and not real. Aliens don't fit the theme and feel and gameplay. Not that they are not fitting in other games. This one is very much set up that space and other ships are the enimy or challenge. Not "magical" laser beams and teleportation and FTL drives from aliens. Aliens is one of the things putting me off RimWorld. Why? The game is not setup like Halo, where it invites an alien like character and gameplay, it's setup like SimCity, which is about people (not imaginary creature, magical or sci-fi).
     
  4. KriegsMeister

    KriegsMeister Apprentice Engineer

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    A lack of evidence does not necessarily mean that aliens do/don't exist. And I disagree that they don't fit the feel, this game is about building space craft to explore and exploit the vastness of space and it's resources, It is not too abstract of an idea that we would stumble across other forms of life in our travels in a similar fashion that the first europeans sailing across the atlantic were searching for a route towards asia and discovered the Americas and it's inhabitants. And while this game may not be setup like HALO, it is setup in a way similar any background story to any game with alien antagonists (including HALO) where Humans after expanding from earth in search for resources discover alien life. And finally this is still a game, we can do whatever the hell we want
     
  5. Kieve

    Kieve Trainee Engineer

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    I'm not a fan of PvP, faction warfare, things of that nature. I was drawn to this game because mechanically, it seemed to be Minecraft-in-Space-but-with-physics. Construction-wise, it feels like a step up from Kinetic Void, where instead of preset ship chunks, you can assemble a ship in literally any shape you please (a minor quibble really, I know how flexible KV's system can be).
    Having established that, I'd rather point my firepower at enemy AI, in a cooperative endeavor - helping out fellow players to clear out a space station, take down a pirate dreadnaught, or rid some asteroid chunk of malicious life-forms.
    Would aliens fit with the theme? Maybe, maybe not - it depends on how they're implemented.
     
  6. Undeadpizzaboy

    Undeadpizzaboy Trainee Engineer

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    I feel like it needs both, It needs Combat *MULTIPLE TYPES OF ENEMIES* ,survival AND engineering gameplay, you guys are stuck to the idea that IT HAS TO BE exactly like what you want but you need to keep in mind that the devs most likely want to target a LARGE audience rather than only selling one copy to just you *pretty sure that was not their plan but IDK*

    "hardcore simulation players" do not have a big enough market to make it acceptable to just "throw out ideas" that might attract other styles of gamers just because "Oh it might not be totally 100% realistic"

    What are you going to do after basically you have built every type of ship imaginable/in your skillrange... "human enemies are all fine and dandy but that will get boring too. you need SEVERAL elements to make a successful game and not a flop, If you just want your "simulation" I am sure there is a peaceful mode with no enemies which would be "realistic" because hostile factions would most likely just find a different area of space rather than try to fight you. *if we are talking about 'realism'* I think this game needs to take a route that is focused on gameplay rather that "super realism" it will surely make for a game whose "appeal" lasts much longer for most people and the "building/realism/simulation" aspect could still be included without sacrificing much at all but if they don't addsomething like this then the gameplay element WILL suffer IMHO.
     
  7. wsales

    wsales Trainee Engineer

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    So I can understand everyone's inclination to keep it about the physics and ship building. But the fact that the devs are planning to put in mining and resource management already begins to take it out of that realm. I think that, even if its not a gooey malevolent alien or something like that, there needs to be an incentive to go out and explore and find rare objects. And if you there's going to be an exploration mechanic, why not make it involve possible hostile encounters? Just my two cents.
     
  8. johncage

    johncage Trainee Engineer

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    lets turn this in call of duty with space zombies so the devs can make a quick buck.

    realism and simulation were the words chosen by the devs to describe the game, so i don't see what you envision happening anytime soon.
     
  9. Undeadpizzaboy

    Undeadpizzaboy Trainee Engineer

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    You are stuck on the idea that some sort of creature could not possibly exist in space, how do you know this? As I pointed out it does not even need to be alien in origin...

    it can still be a "simulation" with some sort of life-form apart from humans to attack you, humans have used animals in wars for like all of time... I personally think that if someone somewhere has not created a genetically modified species by this point in time "No Scientific laws in Space" then that is even more unrealistic than just adding actual human zombies or something.

    Humans can only do so much, Shoot, fly ships, shoot more stuff.... More types of enemies to fight can only make it that much more interesting for the players who want to create PVE ships, it brings more threats and you have to think about your designs more and use specialized combat ships for different jobs rather than a "One size fits all" combat ship. This in turn only brings more tactics to PVP battles and in turn to the whole game as the "Life-forms" could be harvestable for certain resources THUS making it a legitimate job to "scrub down" infested ships, not to mention the salvage and hulls you might get from cleaning it.

    So "Call of dooty with space zombies" I don't really think so... Realistic? Neither you, I, nor the developers can HONESTLY answer that.

    In-short I think your counter argument is a little lacking.:thumb:
     
  10. Kieve

    Kieve Trainee Engineer

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    I don't think anyone wants to see this become CoD:In Spaaaaaace!, nor is it likely to (does COD let you build your own ships from scratch? Harvest asteroids for resources? ...you get my drift).

    A variety of enemies is important to any game that features AI combatants - in games where that variety is lacking, you will undoubtedly hear a reviewer call it "repetative," at the very least. That doesn't necessarily mean nonhuman enemies are required, but it tends to be the simplest way. As an alternative, consider the plethora of Cerberus enemies in ME3 - the basic grunt with the assault rifle, Centurions have armored riot-shields, not to mention the snipers, cloaking ninja assassins, engineers and their turrets, or Atlas pilots.
    I'm here for the building, I don't want to see this become COD in space (or Mass Effect) or anything else where FPS gunplay becomes the primary focus. But the reality of the matter is, there are already chest-high walls as building components, assault rifles as viable equipment, and sooner or later there will be PvP on a personal scale as well as the ship-to-ship warfare. I don't think there's any harm in advocating for an AI alternative if you're not the type to go hunting down your friends (or rival factions).
     
  11. Hawthorn

    Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    I myself feel that the game needs nonhuman life. The non-humans do not need to be horrifying, nor do they need to be zombie-esque; but part of the space genre is the presence of non-humans. The game can maintain its current basis of being a realistic space simulator while still integrating scientifically correct "alien" life.

    The extrasolar life does not even need to be completely alien, it may be demi-human, or human created. Whatever sort of "aliens" are added don't need to be like the Flood or Tyranids, they can be perfectly reasonable sentients, without having horror at their core; though they may be tough adversaries if angered.

    I feel that if nonhumans are integrated into the game, they should be realistic and not horror-centric.

    Edit: I've seen several people referencing Mass Effect as being a combat oriented FPS. They obviously have not played ME. . .
     
  12. Kieve

    Kieve Trainee Engineer

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    12
    Small digression:
    -My mistake, it was third-person over-the-shoulder. :p
    -While the focus of the game was primarly story-driven, the actual gameplay was combat. Of course, depending on your class choice, you could use tech or biotic powers instead of firearms. I grant you, it was certainly more than just a third-person-shooter. The point I was trying to make above is that while the focus of SE isn't combat on a personal scale, the framework is there and some effort should be spent to make it engaging.
     
  13. TechyBen

    TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    Did you ever see Firefly? Plenty of action without the need of aliens (though they did do the "crazy savages" bit. But less for the "zombies" and more for the play on the "old wild west" tropes of the natives).
     
  14. robdelobe

    robdelobe Trainee Engineer

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    I really don't get why people are so hung-up on aliens in space engineers. I've had fun with Mass Effect and the like, but I got this game because I thought I'd be mining and engineering. I want to mine and engineer, bro! Honestly, I never really liked the idea of NPCs either, since from what I can tell the game is only set about 60yrs into the future and I doubt we'd have the tech and infastructure to support large colonies of civilians and pirates. But aliens would just be weird(and they would kick our asses! You don't mess with a race that has mastered FTL travel) unless we're talking about space mold and stuff since we do have organisms that can thrive in really messed up conditions. Space mold is still a bit of stretch, though.
     
  15. Undeadpizzaboy

    Undeadpizzaboy Trainee Engineer

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    Nobody said sentient-plasma rifle shooting-mothership aliens, lol you should read some of the comments that other people *including me* have left before.

    I don't see how having a good amount of enemies to fight would take away from you mining/creating ships in my opinion... as they can be avoided or even disabled... not to mention the game has weapons systems already, not everyone is set on the idea of creating ships specifically for mining, and not everyone wants to do PVP so that leaves PVE, which without multiple types of enemies can become repetitive.
     
  16. robdelobe

    robdelobe Trainee Engineer

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    If you want aliens to be an enemy type, your choices are between Blue-skinned dudes with plasma guns, necromorph type-things and big weird bugs. None of which are plausible given the 2077 scenario. vacumes are too hostile to support anything but the simplest, hardiest organisms(like bacteria and tardigrades) So no big dumb bugs. There are no know deseases or organisms that can cause shapshifting in humans, and I'd imagine shape-shifting into monsters requires ALOT of chemical energy, so the thing and necromorphs wouln't be likely to show up. So that leaves blue-skinned dudes, and I'd imagine they'd have something better than plasma rilfes if they are extrasolar life forms. You best bet would be rival mining faction AIs, which is plausible given how much space there is between most asteroids.

    But then you'd have to code the AIs. Which is a whole different issue. And SE is an open world sandbox, which gives the AIs alot options to act. The more stuff you give them to do the more they'd have to think. And the more they think the more complex the coding gets. I'm sure that if they did get a servicable npc threat up then it wouldn't get too much in the way of mining and engineering(necessity is the mother of invention anyways, npc threats would only give players a reason to invest in defence solutions) but I'm not sure they can pull this off. I'd much rather they focus on the space engineer part of Space Engineers.

    Also, if you're gonna get bored mining and engineering then maybe Space Engineers isn't the game for you. You could always go find a game that does cater to your interests, but it would be unreasonable to expect to have a complex feature to the game that isn't part core mechanics.

    Besides, there'll probably a modder who will add them in anyways. Because necromorphs are awesome.
     
  17. Undeadpizzaboy

    Undeadpizzaboy Trainee Engineer

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    Coding AI is not that complex, "Again I speak from experience" and I didn't mean to imply that I would get bored of mining but what happens when my empire is overflowing with riches? Which with enough playing and a strong faction WILL happen.. Mining is only useful for getting resource and if done without crashing shouldn't use up too much of most of that resource...

    PVE is the next option for those who do not want to specifically PVP, which In my opinion, should not be limited by having only human enemies to fight. Why limit this great game to only one aspect when adding more wouldn't interfere with that aspect any? *Nobody is saying put them on every single asteroid that has a speck of gold onboard* It would be a different element to the game, salvaging derelict ships... Exploring cave systems in mega sized asteroids... Trapping and experimenting on the lifeforms yourself then turning them on your enemies...

    I would prefer a living enemy but I wouldn't mind if they were robotic IF

    *There was a type that can damage ship systems
    *You could make them and plant them on hostile ships then set them to proximity or remote activation then they will start killing people or the ship
    *There were derelict ships that had them
    *Abandoned stations big and small that have them
    *Multiple types

    I still think something living would work better, even if it is a goo-monster that sucks the uranium from your reactors and then eats people.

    So far none of the arguments I have seen against it hold much ground.

    If PVE becomes repetitive then more people will resort to PVP or even pirating and and that means more of your ships will get damaged anyway.

    "Engineering" does not have to be "building mining ships" that is why they are implementing guns.
     
  18. zyphyer

    zyphyer Trainee Engineer

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    Yeah I agree. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We have yet to experience half of the game elements for this. Once we've played with that we're going to be using we should then determine what would fit in.
     
  19. Double_Hertz

    Double_Hertz Trainee Engineer

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    I personally like the idea of necromorph/xenomorph type "Alien" life-forms, and they don't have to be extraterrestrial; after all, Space Engineers is set in 2077, with genetic engineering becoming more advanced, it would only make sense for some rogue state or mega-corporation to start screwing around with human and animal genes eventually. The possibilities are endless.
    For example:

    What if the genetically modified things started out as some kind of experimental weapon, and can only be found on certain derelicts, like old military ones. Maybe the beings breed quickly and can move easily in a zero-g environment, they could take over and inhabit ships in a matter of minutes or hours. The creatures could have some kind of naturally-occurring armor, and maybe a self-contained respiratory system with oxygen producing bacteria in their lungs that would allow them to survive in hard-vacuum conditions. Perhaps after more than an hour in vacuum, they go dormant until food (an unlucky engineer) comes along, it would be absolutely terrifying trying to fight off a dozen hungry xenos in a tight space.
     
  20. PB-DK

    PB-DK Trainee Engineer

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    the biggest baddest enemy humanity has ever faced and will ever face is humanity... and they are more than enough of a threat... having aliens to fight is not necessary... but sure if the devs or modders have time on their hands to make another set people and equipment then sure... i may even try it... human pirates and hostile factions/empires will be enough to begin with
     
  21. TechyBen

    TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    In fact that's a good point. AI is hard, not an excuse, just it really is hard. But what if that's part of the game? :)

    Make the problem the gameplay element. What is the opposing force (other than other players)? A rouge AI! :D

    It would have a chance to hack derelicts only, so as not to be OP. It could "be a big dumb game AI" because, well, it only has to crash into you/shoot. It fits the timeline and game, because it does not need to be smart, and if it is improved later, no changes are made to the way players understand it.

    The AI does not need new animations or models, characters or clever walking through ships (would be rather interesting to code, could take teams years to do :p), it just needs to fly a ship. Which most AI can do already. :)

    So from there, you have a reason to keep derelicts safe. Either rebuild your own ships, or salvage lost ones. Even while salvaging a derelict... it could suddenly come alive if your not careful! The ship has an AI (boost stats if safe, works repair systems and navigation etc), but do you fix the reactor and risk it being a rouge AI? Or do you dismantle the whole thing to be safe (infected blocks must be destroyed/dismantled to be safe).

    Later you could get a scanner, but it needs to be very close. This would keep your own ship safe at times, and help remove infection. To give you time, infected blocks don't cause on their own harm you till your own cockpit/AI is infected. There could even be a chance for it to reconfigure your refinery etc to build it's own turrets/fighters! :eek:ops:

    Granted, I'll be the first to admit "rouge AI" has been done to death just as the other sci-fi tropes. But it's the most fitting I can see, alongside pirates, for the building/space/crashing/mining elements of the game. (Memories of Decent and all similar games :) )
     
  22. Nosto7

    Nosto7 Trainee Engineer

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    I think many of you are saying the following:


    A) Survival (PVE &/OR PVP) Gameplay requires elements that make it hard to survive against. (Food,Enemies,Environmental Hazards etc...) This creates challenge to the game.

    B) PVP Gameplay does not require Ai enemies necessarily.

    C) Enemies that are not human may not fit the theme of the game, pirates (human) may fit better. However aliens could fit, perhaps if they were "long dead ancestors" of humans. Kinda/sorta/MAYBE...

    D) Robot enemies of different kinds/shapes could be good too!

    E) Modding, could bring these elements to the game, in a way the developers perhaps shouldn't. (meaning supporting the player created content)

    Hope that sums it up a bit for everyone.
     
  23. kafka

    kafka Trainee Engineer

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    YES

    IMHO Space Engineers needs both friendly and hostile NPCs, however I cant help but notice that there's a huge amount of crybabies on this forum that only want to be left alone so they can build a spaceship with their boyfriends in peace (apparently failing to notice that weapons are already implemented)

    Perhaps the hostile AI option could be turned on or off as to make everyone happy? (or better yet - probability of presence sliders could be used, allowing to set the chances of encountering them in game anywhere between 0 - 100%)

    Considering the sandbox nature of the game, these encounters should be non intrusive.
    i.e. " horrific alien infestation" could have some some way of warning the player of its presence before the contact is made, maybe by providing visual clues, or broadcasting some weird signal in the area, or interfering with electronics on the player's ship when it gets close etc, while pirates/raiders/bandits could simply talk to player before attacking, allowing him/her to resolve the matter peacefully (i.e. giving them a part of resources/ promising to pay double if they come back later etc etc)

    I am most definitely against the idea of introducing superior alien races with advanced technology to the game as it will kill the spirit of SE - this game is about using your brains - since everyone has the same choice of parts, so its players imagination and critical thinking that make all the difference.
    If more advanced ship parts can be researched/captured, the whole SE gameplay would break down to mindless alien parts farming... meh..



    However, introducing some less advanced alien species would be pretty cool as it would add depth and diversity to the gameplay.
    I think some kind of extremely powerful predators (think Xeno from "Alien"), capable of sneaking unto players ship, if its left unattended, would fit rather well within the concept of SE as it would motivate the player to take security aspects of ship/base designing more seriously (i.e airtight doors, motion detectors, heat sensors, turrets, alarms, traps etc etc)

    Of course, this would only make sense if these creatures are next to impossible to defeat in direct combat - if not, people would simply railgun it in the face, instead of carefully planning their designs...
    Also, just imagine capturing one of these things and then sneaking it into your opponents mining outpost.. Priceless!

    If done right, it shouldn't be too taxing on our machines - firstly due to their low population, as 1-2 of these creatures would be more than enough to keep a ship/station crew entertained for a while, and secondly because they wouldn't require AI as complex as, say, human NPC AI (since the latter is expected not to act stupid in combat, while an alien would simply have to run at you and attack)



    One of the obvious problems, associated with this is navigation, and as it was mentioned in other posts, making an AI capable of finding its way around custom ships/stations can take eternity, however, in case of aliens the solution might be very simple - destructible environments! - i wonder how hard it would be to implement an AI that, when aggroed, would simply move from point A (alien) to point B (target) in a straight line, destroying any obstacle that happens to be in the way?


    Another possible infestation model would be introducing some weird and fairly weak insect-like creatures (kinda like those from the starship troopers movie) that, if left alone on the player's ship/station, would multiply, occupying empty cells around the initial spawn point, stacking on top of each other if they run out of empty space, and eventually attacking once the player is close enough (that's when AI would once again move towards the target in a straight line, breaking/crushing/chewing anything on its way, only this time in a swarm).


    The threat of that kind of infestation would motivate people to walk around the ship from time to time as to make sure that everything is OK, and it would stop players from making unnecessarily big designs that serve no real purpose other than lagging the s*** out of everyone's game.
     
  24. Outlaw

    Outlaw Trainee Engineer

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    I vote that we need something to challenge those of us who wish to play the game solo or on a private server with friends in a co-operative setting, but personally I don't think they need to take the form of horrific aliens. There is plenty of that in science fiction as it is, so lets break from that trend and allow the AI controlled hostile parties to be malicious humans as we all know for a fact historically humanity can be just as malevolent as any of the evil alien invaders we have seen in movies or read about in science fiction novels.
     
  25. jetcutter

    jetcutter Apprentice Engineer

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    I didn't vote,, Lets get core functionality working first.
     
  26. thejackal

    thejackal Trainee Engineer

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    yessssss. I agree! sounds a bit like the flood from halo or aliens from Predators vs Aliens (except not ripping out of peoples chests), but definitely something like that. Most likely a scientist ship would have that beautiful monstrosity on it, which would make more since cause miner, military or merchant ships wouldn't have a frozen man eating/killing creature on board. So the developers would only have to script/make a cryo chamber and an alien beasty which wouldn't take much of their time unlike alien ships because they would have to design and model new blocks that they didn't have prepared when the alpha was released and makes less time for new updates to come out with making new blocks/materials at the same time.
     
  27. Guest

    They will eventually need some kind of antagonist for Survival besides the challenges of harvesting. There is no reason 1) enemy NPC couldn't be turned off, 2) difficulty adjusted. Whether they are aliens or not doesn't really have importance for me.
     
  28. Vrmithrax

    Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    If potential conflict sources (aliens, pirates, robots, angry pudding cups, etc.) must be added, give the players a choice. If you force hostile enemy forces on me and require me to constantly be dealing with them, I will probably rage quit. I'm here for the creativity and building, not for shooting rabid amorphous jello molds in space. I have plenty of other space horror and combat games to fill my need for that type of action.

    That being said, it would be nice to have the OPTION to deal with enemy combatants. If nothing else, it might help ease the eventual boredom plateau that most people will hit.
     
  29. Mac D

    Mac D Junior Engineer

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    521
    I voted no to “horrific aliens” for the main game. I think they should focus the main game on good clean engineering and related sand-box construction activity. They should avoid the need for gunning down and dismembering hordes of swearing pirates, gory aliens, and space zombies for two reasons.
    First: they should keep the rating low (G or PG) and suitable for kids (and parents/teachers), because they should be playing this game in school to learn real-world physics early (Instead of the useless “Hollywood physics” from other games). You can still have some gore in terrible industrial accidents because even young children need to learn to be safe around heavy machinery.
    Second: There are plenty of other games which focus on lots of gory combat so make this one different (echoing many other posts).
    They don’t have to be completely boring and pacifist, so I would add in some robot or AI enemies. The backstory for these AI enemies could be that they are some kind of automated robot/drone/mine booby-traps left over from some old human war and there should also be no ethical or ratings issues with shooting at these AIs and trying to make space a safer place. (Space is bit too safe at the moment, so adding some optional basic AI threats would make things more challenging for users).
    I am all for optional extra content and downloadable scenarios featuring horrific aliens, swearing pirates, and lots of combat. A sand-box scenario creator would allow the creation of plenty of user generated material to cover this. In fact, I would be willing to pay to buy a second combat focused game which used the same physics/design engine and allowed the importing of ship designs developed in the Space Engineers sand-box (like a long campaign were we fight a relentless alien invasion across the solar system to stop them getting to earth).
    I definitely support salvage missions to spooky derelict space ships/space stations for the main Space Engineers game. Just make the threat a rampant AI defense system that may still be active.
     
  30. Evis

    Evis Apprentice Engineer

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    240
    You do realize this game has hollywood physics...

    It seems silly to have just ships and weapons, and no one else to test them on but your buddies.

    That said, we may need some alien race to beat on. This will be essential for SP/COOP.
     
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