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[VRAGE 2] What more do you plan on doing to combat the issue with poorly optimized rendering?

Discussion in 'VRAGE' started by tracasseur, Oct 24, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    Not only has this been a trailing issue from the first iteration of VRAGE, but it seems to have intensified in your latest title; 'Space Engineers'. I suspect this is due to the magnitude of things that you are asking the engine to render, when it simply isn't properly equipped (or written) to do so in an efficient manner. We are seeing machines equipped with the highest end performance components being brought down to ~50 frames from the 60 frame cap that is enforced. We also noticed that there is a resolution being forced upon rendering, which is much lower than 1080p (1920x1080) that, in consequence, causes a frustrating fuzziness to remain present when playing with a display that outputs a greater resolution than the resolution that is being forced within your game.
    If you want a better description of the technical symptoms and obstacles that the user encounters due to the poorly written nature of your engine, please refer to this thread:
    https://forums.keenswh.com/post/discussion-forced-fps-cap-forced-renderresolution-forced-mouse-accel-unoptimized-rendering-etc-6586776
    So, what is your plan?
    What will you do?
    Reddit is watching, hope you don't close or delete threads to try to hide my inqueries because I just archived it in case you decide to. We are all aware of the enforced censorship policies on your Youtube channel. Do the right thing.
     
  2. Kane

    Kane Junior Engineer

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    570

    I'm sorry but as a redditor you are an ass and they would agree. You don't say stuff like reddit is watching.... In fact they hate people like you who do just that... Second the devs not been going left and right deleting things. In fact I'm amazed how little deleting they have done..

    Ask your questions be friendly and don't be a an entitled little brat.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Kane

    Kane Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    570
    This post will be now deleted:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    You talk like they aren't notorious for censoring anybody that might criticize their axiom-razor of an engine, or their 'extremely polished' titles...
    Not only was I scammed by the Miner Wars scandal, but I foolishly spent $15 on this, assuming that a new iteration of VRAGE meant a fix of the basic rendering issues that were present in the first one; so forgive me for being a little curt.
    Sure they can act like children and ignore the merit of my question, jumping to the sensational 'Reddit is watching' comment and using that to deflect my question just like you have; or they could be productive for once and actually perform some critical thinking as to how to fix this issue and finally realize a cool idea like SE with the equipment that is needed to do so.
    Maybe instead of turning this into a drama-vacuum you could have just targeted the technical arguments I presented- you certainly sound like the toxic plague that overwhelms Reddit now, always seeking to eat up drama, never actually has anything of technicality or merit to contribute in a discussion. If you are planning on continuing the drama, just do not even reply.
     
  5. Kane

    Kane Junior Engineer

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    570
    You have never bought Miner Wars. I have it.. Would I not actually have more say over you? You just read a lot of drama on the Internet and then QQ... Rather then fighting with a Indie Developer who has failed in the past why not go after triple A company like EA and pull your protest there?

    Why punish the young and the learning why not be a man and go after someone who has done the same stunt dozens of times and keeps doing it?
     
  6. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    So now I am punishing them by making pleas for them not to ignore the issues that have been a crippling aspect of the problems that polluted Miner Wars, and now which hinders their latest title?


    I must really not care, I must really want this game to fail.... :(
     
  7. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    So the staff makes replies to stupid unproductive threads like "What caught your attention to space engineers" or "What is your favorite thing to do in space?", like how is that even relevant besides for marketing- I am just lost at that...


    1. Ignore feedback on forums
    2. Encourage people to derail criticism/feedback
    3. Censor all potentially 'critical' comments on all media sites
    4. ???
    5. Reap profits on Steam
     
  8. g4borg

    g4borg Apprentice Engineer

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    271
    I see the rendering engine as fine for a dotnet 3d game, responsive and very well done for an alpha release, nor is it greedy or overfetched in terms of pricing.

    This kind of game has big potential, because there are multiple projects currently running which try to bring the space-ship-building-sandbox-sim-for-everybody, (which even Notch is working on)

    The Language will be the problem. C# may be in edge and corner cases native speeds, and is way more responsive than similar languages, but when it comes to networking or computation, its even slower than computations done in a language like python, not to speak about the possibility of optimizing things through native addons, which is possible here too.
    Also, the language will always also impact memory size - C# is simply not designed for more than small projects or learning to code, it performs very poorly in terms of high scale memory stuff. It's a very beautiful language, however. But it was designed for enterprise development. Big Object Oriented tasks with a responsive GUI. And it does very well there, it just lacks one important need for enterprise solutions, being platform independent (so it still has a very active competitor: java)

    Same goes for this game: it seems it has some native components, and I really hope, they focus on expanding the native code once the proof of concept works well in the C# layer, but I also hope, they do optimize the physics in native code, and design a binary protocol for the networking engine.

    If they do, things could get very cool, and there are no doubts, this game will grow into what one might miss in miner wars, and become a long-term title for the studio.

    Otherwise, this isn't miner wars, so if you have problems regarding that game, please don't take the rage about it over here. I only played it's demo, but it was actually pretty much that, what I expected it to be, and i found it pretty funny and cute, so I don't know about that games' problems.
    All I am is disappointed a bit about the dotnet fact, let me be clear, I just fear, the game will not scale well to what we expect it to become, and knowing C# development, things grow fast, and then the project gets stuck in trying to beat the beast behind it; I very much hope however, the devs will find a way for this to work.

    After all, most elder programmers didn't think Minecraft will be ever more than a little single player toy, especially since most of the coding community around it was very young and much of is code was awful, but still it managed to become quite an impressive game, especially as the server hardware scaled enough to keep java happy.

    Like Minecraft, this could be an expanding title and become a classic. Miner Wars on the other hand was clearly a "boxed release game". It just really depends, how open it will be for the community, and it seems the producers know exactly well, what they are trying to achieve here.

    I do add however, that I would also love some reflective thoughts about the possibilities and fears of the devs at this state, so some answer to you and me aswell, I just state, the opening post is clouded a bit by anger.
     
  9. chessmaster42

    chessmaster42 Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    I know we shouldn't feed the trolls but I can't help myself when someone says things that are this ignorant so here goes.

    1. The devs are VERY busy right now upgrading the game to use .NET 4.5 and finishing up the manual/survival mode. It's a small studio so they can't reply to everything that everyone says.
    2. From everything that I've read here on the forums all of the dev posts have been normal and involved with the topic at hand in the given thread. I haven't seen them derail or disregard criticism. The game is in early alpha and they are taking all of the criticism quite well.
    3. The "censoring" that has happened has been taking place only on the Steam forums and that isn't directly moderated by the development team. There are community members on there that are doing the moderating and could stand to take things a bit easier on the negative posts there.
    4. Writers block perhaps?
    5. The dev team has worked hard on this game and they deserve compensation for the work. Ergo they are making money on the game. I don't see a problem with earning money for work.

    The optimization has been happening even since the early release windows and the performance has most definitely improved. The game has only been out on Steam for 12 hours so take a deep breath and relax while they do their work.
     
  10. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    If they think that C# is going to do it for them, then you are right, they will be battling the beast with band-aids until they realize they just need to completely rebuild the project.
    https://forums.keenswh.com/post/discussion-forced-fps-cap-forced-renderresolution-forced-mouse-accel-unoptimized-rendering-etc-6586776
    Read that, you will see what I am talking about in terms of band-aid fixing, it's embarrassing what they are doing just to make the game run at all; forcing an internal resolution- the only motive behind doing this is because without it you would need more resources than it's worth (3x a nv Titan) just to make it run at 60fps...
    I must imagine what the dialog was between the development staff when this was decided..

    QA:
    "First play-through was nearly unplayable, it can't run any higher than 30 frames on our gaming machines"
    Lead:
    "Oh, well, what resolution can it run at without dipping?"

    QA:
    "1280x1024 ......"
    Lead to Engine team:
    "Cap resolution at 1280x1024, if their monitor is greater than that then just upscale it"
    Engine team:
    "Uhhh.. Should we at least give them the option to change the cap?"
    Lead:
    "No, then people with 1080p and mid-range cards won't even be able to play"
    .......
    Probably something like that, like just admit to it and tell us what you're going to do to fix the optimization besides rolling out code like the stupidly irresponsible band-aid fix you have implemented right now...
    I feel bad for anyone who spent $15 on this.
    You don't fix optimization issues rooted in language limitations & coding incapabilities by simply updating .NET dependencies, wow, the development staff is even more stupid than I thought. Either the lead designer is forcing these decisions or they are hiring $10/hr "engine programmers", possibly both.. what a joke
     
  11. yttrium

    yttrium Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    141
    Uhh, really? Why 4.5? I mean, it has a few performance improvements over 4, but at a huge cost: it isn't supported in XP. Since this game still uses DX9, I'm heavily surprised they're dropping XP support. I mean, I guess it had to happen sometime, but... are we really that far into the future?
     
  12. g4borg

    g4borg Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    I also want to humbly point out, this section of the forum is "Question from the developers", you will notice, before I bought the game, I posted a question about it's tech here too, and never got an answer.

    I suppose because it wasn't for users to ask questions to the devs?

    If this would be the case, if any developer or moderator might stumble over this, it might be wise to call it "Questions BY the developers", and not allow people to post topics here, but also make a Tech Question section, please.

    I see it a bit differently in the cases you describe btw., I am not angry at all at them, so I cannot completely share your view (nor do I really want to because I feel pretty happy atm, but I can understand how you feel). I am most possibly just a bit disappointed at this very moment. I see a small studio trying to do honest work and release a multiplayer title which revolves around a technology, most big studios could easily afford to do, but don't waste resources on, because regurgitating the old titles sells better. They did deliver network based space shooting with destructible stuff, and the dev blog does mention, at their time there was only unity as an affordable engine (they did forget Ogre or Clanlib, tho, but at least ogre obviously falls off of many rosters), and atm. I am pretty glad they didn't go unity, when they did miner wars, and believe me, so would you be, if you would have waited for miner wars to come out with a unity engine modded to do destructible stuff... To get out a multiplayer title is not an easy task, to deliver something new neither; I mean this now as a developer, who actually studied most of the techniques required to do projects with networking, graphics, and stuff, and I am also already in my 30s and a bit experience, what happens in corporationworld. It wasn't like the scandal with WarZ, where it was clearly a rip-off of somebody else's success, and tbh. i'd whish more people would look past modern releases and mention the scandal other games deliver, where graphics are perfect, but you just accept, that all the promises made around that game were actually just empty PR phrases. I am way more forgiving, if a title cannot reach it's potential, or all promises, due to financial problems, than mentioned business practices.

    I really think, this title is also a promise to stay focused on this concept to be done better.

    But I seem to share your criticism a bit :) At least on the technical level.
     
  13. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    I am not quite as old and experienced as you perceive to be, however, I am baffled at how few people notice these issues and then it seriously bothers me when I am the only one with the audacity to challenge this dense crowd to try to exchange with developers only to be continuously attacked because people took my feedback as a personal insult to their livelihood. Now I understand why the guy who left used the term 'fanboy' mentality.. It is true.
    I spent my own time to make the thread to provide feedback only to be ignored by the staff and targeted by the 'fanboy' crowd.
     
  14. g4borg

    g4borg Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    I have to say, I am one of the most conservative people I ever met in gaming; And I tried to keep windows xp as long as possible. But we survived Vista and 7, and even me, as somebody who keeps windows really and explictly only for gaming on one machine, have upgraded to 8 metrocrap; i am even a bit happy, that i only have to use it for gaming purposes, but also happy that win8 actually performs better and more memory saving than even xp... also hardware is pretty cheap atm. and it's a good time to grab a nice 1155 board.

    So, with this background, sorry to bring you this, but we are really that far into the future. :D
    But no worries, I think, we just got there yesterday.

    However, as one, who hopes for the demise of windows on the pc gaming market, and also see it as a the most probable future event, I would rather see them working on the mono port for the steambox :D but 4.5 might be a good step for people with performance issues.
     
  15. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    So by your hopes, they would spend all their time trying to refactor a mono port for steambox, woot finally arrives on steambox after all the deeply rooted engine issues for the PC were but on backburner, but WAIT, oh that's cool, the game is capped at 30fps on steambox; and resolution is down-scaled even more! What a gem. If I bought the game and saw that when throwing it in my steambox, I would just throw the game away... Like what a waste of money that would be.

    Half of their "engine programmers" haven't even touched C/C++ before, I can almost promise this is the truth..
     
  16. Acela5

    Acela5 Trainee Engineer

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    70
    I honestly don't see the problem please inform me (not flame me out for not seeing it). All i see is people arguing over nothing important. The game runs smoothly in a broad spectrum of hardware and looks pretty darn good to me.
     
  17. g4borg

    g4borg Apprentice Engineer

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    271
    I don't see any problem yet either, however I am curious how it will scale. I just expressed that, but you all seem to have a little thread history.

    I do see some arguments as important, but would not expect them to be important to everybody.
     
  18. tracasseur

    tracasseur Trainee Engineer

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    26
    Pretty much this, the guy who is just trying to get the game to run on his machine at all doesn't have a care that the resolution on 1080p has an upscaled rendering, or that the frame-rate cap is at 60...
    These are more so problems related to the extent that the game can scale, quality-wise, which would be more relevant to the mid/high end PC users.
    A game engine typically doesn't force a downscaled resolution for higher-end display resolutions (like 1080p) or at least provides an option to decide the amount of scaling, when it doesn't, then that is a red-flag.
     
  19. Ferigad

    Ferigad Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    71
    I am just curious.

    Did you ever checked your facts before you posted? Yes at the moment it is forced in one resultion. It is a alpha version. The engine itself is capable of a higher resolution. If you would have checked the facts, Minerwars 2081 (play that too and supported too) had the same issue in Alpha. Now it has the option to set the resultion like you are comfortable with it.

    They had a freeze date for features and wanted to work on stability before 23th October. That was 1th October. The game is still Alpha and they allready announced to check out the 64bit options, they are not stupid and they know if they wanna get the full potential out of the game, they will need 64bit compatibility.

    So yes, it´s a alpha, you cant change resolution and the FPS has a max cap and the Ram is capped too from what i read. I mean, no offense really... 60 FPS is smooth and if you really see a difference between 60 FPS and like 120 FPS then you must have the most advanced set of eyeballs on the planet. I cannot see a difference between 60 FPS or 80 or even 100. And personaly i don´t know anybody in my agegroup that is able to see a difference from 60 FPS upwards.

    So if you check out Minerwars 2081, witch uses the same engine, you will see it has no FPS cap, no Resolution cap, and it works very smoth and good. The reason is simple:

    Minerwars 2081= released game
    Space Engineers = alpha

    So give them time, let them do their job, and don´t jump to conclusions because you saw an alpha-state game. If i had jumped to conclusions from the first Planetary Anihilation Alpha with it´s poor stability and memory leaks i would have died of a stroke.
     
  20. JerikTelorian

    JerikTelorian Trainee Engineer

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    tracasseur, how many video games have you programmed?

    You act like you're a master of programming and project management, since you seem to know the ins and outs of their studio's internal affairs. Are you a spy or something?

    Can you actually show me what this upscaling looks like? You said it is an option in PS2, can you just show us some screenshots of the effect there and here so we can actually see this thing?

    EDIT: The reality at this point seems to be that tracasseur has some sort of agenda against the developers. Whether it is actually based in reality or on some sort of rational argument is hard to tell, since his ravings are indistinguishable from the crazies wearing tinfoil and screaming about the flat earth and UN conspiracies. His reddit profile is here: https://www.reddit.com/user/tracasseur
    Many of his posts are downvoted for stupid, trolling crap.

    A
    s you can see, he generally posts a heated condemnation of the developers and then shouts down anyone who disagrees or asks for proof of any kind. He is the silliest kind of goose.
     
  21. Drenferalis

    Drenferalis Trainee Engineer

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    3
    I went through this whole thread and was just going to stick out of it until I saw this.

    First off, precision actions relying on positions of an object rely on framerate when time is introduced.

    Let me give you an example, if you are using the mouse or a joystick trying to fly through a "space parkour" world you may need those extra frames for the perfect movement, not everyone can SEE the difference but the truth is you can FEEL a difference. Open any game (without mouse acceleration) that has a selectable frame rate (60, 120, unlimited) and move the mouse around quickly, now turn the frame rate to 120, now set it to unlimited, you will see a HUGE difference in the smoothness and flow of your cursor.


    Now the main topic here is, rendering engine is upscaling renders on higher resolutions. Plus some frame drops. Inability to unlimit frames sucks too.

    Is this right?
    No.

    Is this a big deal?
    Not really, it would be a big problem if this game was being developed by an AAA studio with 100+ different people working on it, not a small studio. Wanna talk about a game with rendering issues? Look at how minecraft couldn't get its light rendering working properly for 6+ months. (Still not perfect IMO) And they are what... the number 1 selling indie company of all time?

    Think about the big picture.

    Edit: (This is a game that doesn't even have SOUND EFFECTS yet...)

    Speaking of money... Can they afford to fix it?
    Not when you're encouraging people to pirate the game.

    Even with rendering issues do I think the game is still worth $15?
    Yes. This is the first game (that I know of, correct me if I am wrong) that uses a non voxel destructible environment in a voxel game, and it creates a KSP-like experience without the difficulty curve. And who knows? Maybe they will squash the bugs that are causing the frame drops and remove the resolution cap.

    So whats this big picture?
    In my own opinion this games big selling point is MECHANICS. Its priced to be affordable for most gamers, and is therefore targeted at gamers with average computers. Number 1 concern for the engine: Can lower end computers run this game? Answer would have to be yes. Being an alpha release I would personally start by focusing on making the games mechanics stand out and give players a feel for what the final product is going to be, how do you do that? Add the features first, then polish it.


    TL: DR;
    Let me put this in a metaphor anyone could understand, picture the game like a car. Your telling the developer to start polishing the engine before they even get the wheels on the car.
     
  22. Ferigad

    Ferigad Trainee Engineer

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    71
    The only issue where you see a difference i know of is a error with a flatscreen/plasma. In that case i would assume the person has a desync error that splits the FPS in half, so 60 would look like 30, and 120 like 60. Then you could see a difference. Otherwise... i cannot say i see it, sorry. Just tested it, nothing. Maybe i´m just to old ;) If you can feel the difference... i don´t know. I know a friend who say that a to high FPS creates dizzines and headache over time. I tryed it with Freespace 2, but i think the fighterengines doesn´t move you quick enough to feel that difference. And i don´t think that Space Engineers will have that kind of speed in small crafts in the end. Still, even a real 120 FPS sucks if my brain can only handle 32 FPS :woot: In the end i am happy with smooth 50 FPS and a ping of 40. If i hit a wall i would assume that the pingspike killed me, not the FPS.
     
  23. Thunderbolt

    Thunderbolt Trainee Engineer

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    62
    What are you even talking about, the game isn't upscaling anything, here's proof

    I took a screenshot on the lowest video quality, meaning no antialiasing = nothing making the image blurry

    [​IMG]
    (right click>view image)

    1920x1080, no upscaling whatsoever

    Feel free to count the pixels yourself
     
  24. TechyBen

    TechyBen Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    542
    Yep. As said, plain old requirements of information are needed to solve problems. We cannot work in a vacuum, unlike Space Engineers who can... ;)

    I would assume resolution scaling is applied (non-native screen, something like a TV or a TV like monitor, or a simple misapplication of the res). Or MSAA applied by the card (could be a driver bug, so no ones fault). Or it could be a bug with the game, but without any logs, drivers, etc, it's a needle in a hay stack.

    If you wanted something with a timestamp on when bugs are fixed, don't buy an Alpha, sorry. :(
     
  25. Admindeath

    Admindeath Trainee Engineer

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    21
    Sorry I'm new here but some of the issues I have not seen. I have been playing on a laptop that is 5 years old, and the game runs great. I have capped the memory a couple times on grossly over-sized builds but I chalk that up to creative mode being over powered as usual, and it's alpha.

    Give them a chance tracasseur



    Why? because $15 that you spend on minerwars was not a complete waste, im sure you did have some fun as well.... I'm sure that helped get the company going, and onto bigger and better things.

    I have yet to see a game as cool as SE, and it is just in alpha. Give them a chance and as people support it and buy in they will have the resources needed to make it legendary.

    Be safe.
     
  26. RandomAccessModule

    RandomAccessModule Trainee Engineer

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    16
    Tracasseur means Troublemaker in french.
    The game is good, it's alpha. If you buy it, you know you test it for development use.
    The game is stable and runs smoothly for me. Low fps, bugs and so on are made to get solved, just like you mountain guy.
    Wait and see, be positive and constructive.
    Merci a+
     
  27. DarkGhost

    DarkGhost Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    765
    Exactly what I thought and that's why I didn't even read the whole opening post. Knew it was a ragepost posted randomly after 5 bottles of vodka ...

    1 voice against ... 100, 200, 500 ? Who would care of him precisely, even more with poor reasons that I'm sure he has.
     
  28. Evito

    Evito Apprentice Engineer

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    163
    Only question i have is... What performance/quality issue?

    And my computer rig is decent for gaming sure.. or rather was 2 years or so ago.
    You cant expect to play a physics intensive game with a garbage bin sale computer from 5-7 years back.

    And don't use plasma or projectors if you cant afford the proper gear to get quality level gaming out of them.
     
  29. eablack

    eablack Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    1
    On my PC alpha build of this game works pretty good. No issue with performance, just stable game. Only on crashes im getting fps drop but its normal for games with physics.
     
  30. Smeowkey

    Smeowkey Trainee Engineer

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    17
    Fifteen dollars. Not fifteen thousand dollars. Stop bitching and moaning as if you bought a brick house and later discovered it's all made from rotten paper. FIFTEEN DOLLARS. If that much money is of concern to you then maybe you shouldn't be spending it on video games and computer parts.
     
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