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A brief analysis regarding the new 64-bit build

Discussion in 'General' started by GeneralApathy, Nov 16, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. GeneralApathy

    GeneralApathy Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    This is such a REVOLUTIONARY update that I'm going to, for this one time, go into a quick analysis of its potentials because I need to convey to you just how CRITICAL this build will be to the game.

    [​IMG]


    What you're looking at is 1,591,380 blocks, each separated into 540 individual large ship entities of 2,947 blocks each. That's 1,035,184,320 kilograms. Over a billion kilograms.
    Think about how god damn big that is for a moment.
    Furthermore, this isn't just some borg cube with six sides to render. As you're already well aware, every single one of these ships has a highly intricate interior and exterior, all of which need to be rendered. Additionally, all of these ships are packed close together, confirming that they're a good chunk of them are being rendered simultaneously in high detail and that they're all, at the minimum, being rendered as basic models.
    This build is currently using around 6.4GB, but the lead developer has already confirmed that memory usage higher than that is on its way.
    A few conclusions I've made:
    • Concerns about multiplayer's feasibility are practically voided with this test. I'm expecting the developers to use individual sectors/quadrants to minimize performance concerns to a defined area around the player (and for gameplay, but who knows), but the fact that the 64-bit build can run this well on its first test shows just how far this game is going to go.
    • Builds bigger than anyone could have ever imagined are now possible. Want to recreate The Citadel? The Death Star? No problem, kiddo. All you need is time, patience, dedication and skill.
    • Large fleets with multiple capital ships are also possible. I've currently got a little surprise on my end cooking up for people at the SE Forums that'll benefit from this aspect.
    • Inevitably, I'm also expecting that the type of complexity associated with maintaining and running a ship will also rise.
    • The possibility for higher level physics just opened up. The game will most likely never support in-game relativistic or near-relativistic speeds, but I'm still rooting for thermodynamics, statics and fluid dynamics. Adding gravity to objects beyond players seems inevitable (and feasible as well), but I fear that this update will be the hardest and most controversial one to develop. If you take a moment to think about how the dynamics between two large masses with heavy gravity will affect each other, and then replace "large masses" with "ships filled with 1000 gravity generators", and then throw in tens of asteroids moving in orbits, you might see what I mean.
    • Planets will most likely never be possible, but large planetoids (like Ceres, for example) might end up being feasible. The developers seem to be highly interested in this idea, seeing as they created a stickied thread specifically for hearing discussion about it.
     
  2. redneckpirate

    redneckpirate Apprentice Engineer

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    225
    O_O Sweet Jesus... Those are some interesting conclusions you've made, as well. When you say "sectors", you mean like a specified boundary-enclosed area of space connected via teleporter/mass driver/FTL launcher system?
     
  3. GeneralApathy

    GeneralApathy Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    Yes, I feel that'll be the best way to work with this game. Simulating the entire universe and all its reactions would be too hard, but sectoring it off might help. Whether you'll have to "travel" via lightspeed between sectors or you'll simply switch over to the new dimension in real-time is up for grabs.
     
  4. Kamoba

    Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    1,389

    Real time would be my preferred option.

    Thanks for the overview of that General.
    Very insightful
     
  5. GeneralApathy

    GeneralApathy Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    No problem! Glad people are interested.
     
  6. CptTwinkie

    CptTwinkie Master Engineer

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    4,458
    You know, if you ever get pilots for all of those, you'll be able to flatten anything.

    That said I can't wait to see a fully built out citadel! ...maybe a co-op build
     
  7. TKirkman

    TKirkman Trainee Engineer

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    11
    Yup. 10 to 20 players welding different sections at the same time. Great image in my mind. Or different sections assigned to crews. Oh yeah. We could have it built in no time. LOL

    TK
     
  8. Mishka

    Mishka Junior Engineer

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    862
    My atlantis i estimate is going to be around 800k of blocks and due to using heavy blocks around 1.5bil :p going to be interesting once 64bit is released for sure!
     
  9. Wyvyrias

    Wyvyrias Junior Engineer

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    555
    6,4GB in use...
    I just have 4GB total. :woot:
     
  10. ryudragon27

    ryudragon27 Trainee Engineer

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    i am so glad i got 8gb for my laptop a while ago, i've gone high before, but i wanna use 7gb on just this game!
     
  11. ghosttr

    ghosttr Trainee Engineer

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    58
    Ram usage still needs to be optimised. This is just the basic single player game without really anything else going on. Multiplayer/physics/anything else is just going to add to it.:(
     
  12. hrdrok

    hrdrok Apprentice Engineer

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    183
    All great assumptions on how things will work GA.

    A few thoughts though. Large multiplayer battles will still be effected by more than RAM usage. The processing required by your CPU/GPU will still have a larger effect than the RAM. While RAM will effect the amount of blocks allowed to be playable it won't effect physics. The more the ships the more separate entities, allowing for more calculation of physics...

    Add with that each ship housing dozens of weapons and possibly manned by several people, the game will need Multi-Thread support for all 4 cores of most peoples CPU's. I have high hopes for multiplayer, but I am thinking if they can get up to 10-15 separate fully manned ships in one fight with little lag, I will be happy.
     
  13. BlankWarningsign

    BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

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    278
    I am so excited =^_^=
     
  14. TodesRitter

    TodesRitter Moderator

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    2,127
    16 Gb are ready :3
     
  15. bwc153

    bwc153 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    Do consider though that unless everything is handled by the server (Doubtful), you're going to alienate a lot of people with anything above 4 GB of RAM if you make a lot of stuff though. In fact you'd be alienating 52% of all Steam users who have taken Steam's systems survey in October, 2013. Anything over 6 GB and you'd alienate over 60.74%. Anything over 8GB and you'd alienate over 88.5%!
    https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
     
  16. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    This game can't work with a decently sized MP experience if you don't have enough hardware. Alienation or not, if you don't have a powerful machine to get the most out of this game its just a sad fact that you're going to have to deal with on your own.
     
  17. XOIIO

    XOIIO Apprentice Engineer

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    325
    holy crap, how did you get them all in one map? lol.
     
  18. bwc153

    bwc153 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    Please read more. If the devs did this the'll piss a bunch of people off who would be unable to play their game after buying it. Note how drastically different the changes in system requrements would be... If one assumes that the system demographics for people who bought SE are the same as the steam survey system demographics - by going above 4GB memory usage as a BASE requirement for the game (and bear in mind that mass multiplayer, or larger scale MP, implies the game is centered around MP, or that MP is in fact the main point of the game - and thus would have the high ram usage) then they would subjegate over half of their early-access backers on ram usage alone! I understand the argument, and I agree with it - usually - but in every instance I've agreed with it it's been over trivial things when a small minority (<15%) has obsolete hardware, not a small majority!

    Linked for your convenience

    He didn't - the developers did. Check their twitter page. ;)
     
  19. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    You're making a mistake in assuming the steam survey is the same as the Space Engineers playerbase. Steam gets installed on lots of obsolete computers all around the world, in internet cafes and so on. People who are interested in this kind of video game are likely to have more powerful machines than those who just have steam to play popcap games.

    You're really overstating the problem that this game will need 4gb+ to really enjoy multiplayer.
     
  20. bwc153

    bwc153 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    Thank you for stating what I directly stated in my post, "If one assumes that the system demographics for people who bought SE are the same as the steam survey system demographics". While I did forget to state that they are different, you are making the mistake that I am assuming they are the same (I never did say they were). You have completely avoided my point about how different the minimum system specs would be, which is undeniable. The simple fact here is that many people have bought space engineers already based on it's current system requirements, and that by changing the system requirements so much, the developers will alienate people who have purchased the game already who meet the current system requirements, but not the minimum requirements if said requirements were raised to be much higher.
     
  21. YtramX

    YtramX Apprentice Engineer

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    238
    Minimum specs can mean a lot of things. For single player, the minimum specs are going to be much lower. They could break it down into three main categories:
    • Minimum Requirements - Single Player
    • Recommended Requirements - Single Player
    • Recommended Requirements - Multiplayer
    It's always important to realize that minimum requirements are always going to be at the low end and will not provide an optimal experience. In this case, optimal experience might mean 400 ships on the same screen that requires 64-bit and 8GB of RAM.
     
  22. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    its an alpha

    system requirements are subject to change

    deal with it
     
  23. bwc153

    bwc153 Trainee Engineer

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    76
    Argument is 10/10 would read again.
    You're assuming that MP would be large-scale. The developers have still not released any information about how multiplayer would work. Of course, as mentioned above System requirements are subject to change due to it being an alpha, there likely is a bit of thought tossed into the system requirements before they were released. Also if MP was large scale - what's the point to even playing SP, as the only way large-scale MP works is if you force players to rely on other players for stuff.
    Here's the RECOMMENDED system requirements. I'd like to point out that the things you guys are suggesting are that the Minimum requirements of the game be raised above the current recommended requirements. It's radically changing the requirements for the game. Sure the developers CAN do this - but it would be outright stupidity for a business to alienate their consumer base.
     
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