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Cloaking Tech for MP

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Peanut, Nov 7, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ralith

    Ralith Trainee Engineer

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    79
    Well said. Ships should always be visible. If you want to be stealthy, do it the way it's been done throughout history: make it small, paint it black, and fly it where nobody's looking.
     
  2. Unit

    Unit Trainee Engineer

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    14
    Since I don't really know what to vote for, gonna write it out here. Also gonna repeat what others have said earlier in the post;

    Yes to stealth, no to invisibility.

    Stealth should be -coloring your ship to blend into asteroids/the blackness of space, disabling running lights, disabling or lowering your engines power to reduce heat radiation or extra light, masking radar or radiation or anything that can be used to track your ship if any such system is ever implemented. I can also kinda see what others have suggested of reflective plates to help blend in better. But no, no outright invisibility.
     
  3. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    As I said in one of my first posts in this forum. The only stealth mechanic in this game should be managing the signature size of your ship. No cloaking, and no hiding in plain view in a vacuum. Its impossible.

     
  4. AustinVT

    AustinVT Trainee Engineer

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    65
    The outcry the community would have when all the people start ramming invisible ships into the visible ones. Way to much abuse potential. I will pass.
     
  5. Evito

    Evito Apprentice Engineer

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    163
    Active cloaking systems even in the hypothetical future have more issues than they solve. Absolutely no for active magic fields (yes i know you can bend light, that dont mean its feasible on a combat craft)

    Hell yes to Radar/Lidar/Stealth/ECM

    I finally want a game that friggen gets it right! We've been waiting long enough.
     
  6. AustinVT

    AustinVT Trainee Engineer

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    65
    :thumb:


    Thank you Evito. I was afraid I would have to get into a complicated explanation on how a cloaking field would hypothetically work and why it would go against the foundation of this game.
     
  7. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
  8. Mookie

    Mookie Trainee Engineer

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    27
    The only way I would ever really agree to the idea of cloaking, would be; Only available for small ships. The Cloak only applies to a radar, not to visual appearance. The module for the Cloak being incredibly large and heavy, so the ship would have to be purpose built for the use of stealth.
     
  9. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    I still disagree.

    Stealth in space is impossible. But again like gravgens I would be willing to overlook some mechanics for the sake of gameplay.

    Such as the only 'stealth mechanic' should be how 'noisy' your ship is, and that only influences its detection range for sensors. Nothing is undetectable and nothing can hide in plain view.
     
  10. Peanut

    Peanut Trainee Engineer

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    9
    This is an interesting discussion, however there are a few things I would like to point out:

    As has maybe been mentioned above, if you use something like radar you are visible to enemy ships. This would mean that a stealthy aircraft would have no way of detecting nearby threats.

    Another thing, heat seeking tech doesn't work in space. At all. The medium for heat transfer is absent in a vacuum, meaning that all heat-seeking tech doesn't work. However, infrared detection would work, but not if you're stealth craft can block the infrared radiation.
     
  11. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Project Rho is an absolutely wonderful site, and should be required reading for everyone on this forum.
     
  12. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    That is semantics.

    Ships will have a heat signature, which will be detectable. So stuff can seek it.

    Also you can't block the infrared radiation.

    You can't freeze your ship either, even at the temperature water freezes you're still 273k and will glow against the cold background of space.

    Again as Dwarf-Lord Pangolin said, https://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php is a fantastic website and should be mandatory reading :p
     
  13. RustedKitsune

    RustedKitsune Trainee Engineer

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    32
    No cloaking, but yes to stealth. You could even put trade-offs in there, like a radar/lidar-absorbing "armor" block, an option to jam sensors that also increases your signature to beyond the jamming radius, etc...
     
  14. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    [​IMG]

    Heat is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. All of which goes through space just fine, just like light and radio waves. This is why the sun is ... y'know, hot. You go outside to stand in the sun, you feel warm. You actually feel less warm than you would if you didn't have the Earth's atmosphere between the sun and you, because then if you stood in the sun, you would feel like bacon.

    Crispy, crispy bacon. Mmmmm ...

    Actually, here's a quote from Wikipedia on "Thermal radiation:"

    "Thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation generated by the thermal motion of charged particles in matter. [...] Examples of thermal radiation include the visible light and infrared light emitted by an incandescent light bulb, the infrared radiation emitted by animals and detectable with an infrared camera, and the cosmic microwave background radiation. [...] Sunlight is part of thermal radiation generated by the hot plasma of the Sun. The Earth also emits thermal radiation, but at a much lower intensity and different spectral distribution (infrared rather than visible) because it is cooler. The Earth's absorption of solar radiation, followed by its outgoing thermal radiation are the two most important processes that determine the temperature and climate of the Earth."

    There's also a great link here describing sun/Earth interactions. Relevant quotes are "The sun emits energy as electromagnetic radiation. Unlike sound, such radiation requires no medium, therefore this energy is able to travel through the near vacuum of space from the sun to the earth." Basically, our atmosphere is super-good at absorbing heat ... though not as good as that of Venus, thank goodness.

    ... so, yeah.
     
  15. Unit

    Unit Trainee Engineer

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    14
    Damn, just read that Project Rho article and now it's hard for me to justify stealth in this game lol :p still kinda want it for gameplay since it's still cool mechanics but now I won't be as upset if they don't include it.
     
  16. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Yeah, that article makes me depressed about how the Normandy in Mass Effect wouldn't actually be able to stealth. Sad panda.
    (At least, I don't think it would. The hand-wave is that they have "lithium heat-sinks" which can catch and store all their heat emissions, letting them go undetected as long as they don't use their engines, and don't store the heat long enough for it to cook them. No idea if you could actually catch all your heat. Seems quite dubious, though using them to temporarily reduce your heat signature, as has been mentioned here, seems reasonable.)

    There's also a good article here that Project Rho links to (Rocketpunk Manifesto is another great source, lot of good articles on there). Some of the suggestions in it would work quite well in multiplayer in this game, such as stealth achieved not by hiding yourself, but by making yourself appear to be different from what you are. Considering that multiplayer servers will likely end up with multiple factions (informal if not formally supported by the game itself), stealing someone else's ship or making your own ship that looks to be different than it is/is just a decoy are all valid options. The article also mentions some possible forms of countermeasures that go some way to reintroducing that "fog of war" effect.

    I have to say, one of the things I like about both Project Rho and Rocketpunk Manifesto is that although they're very much in favor of crunchy sci-fi, they're not unsympathetic to people that want to tell a story. They know people are likely going to fudge things in the name of a good story, they just want to help them do so in the least "you fail at science forever" way possible. Which makes sense, because stories (or games!) tend to be more fun the less you have to employ Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
     
  17. Evis

    Evis Apprentice Engineer

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    240
    If cloaking does make it into the game, we'll have to mod ourselves a cloak-seeking nuclear missile.
     
  18. Ralith

    Ralith Trainee Engineer

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    79
    Except by using any of the absolutely massive suite of passive sensors which have been discussed at length in the thread as impossible to realistically hide from.
     
  19. Unit

    Unit Trainee Engineer

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    14
    IFF tags anyone?

    Agreed, yay handwavium.
     
  20. hatdudeman

    hatdudeman Trainee Engineer

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    94
    What if we did a half backed predator style cloak
     
  21. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    No.

    never going to happen.
     
  22. Kamoba

    Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    1,389
    Anything half baked is under cooked and only good for the bin.
     
  23. Qestroy

    Qestroy Trainee Engineer

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    94
    Radar cloak yes, visual cloak no
     
  24. Sims_doc

    Sims_doc Junior Engineer

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    876
    i guess to combat this we will need thermal imaging.
     
  25. johncage

    johncage Trainee Engineer

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    56
    you can cover the ship in fiberoptic camoflage. it won't be invisible, but will be transparent
     
  26. Gentry

    Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    spaceships don't use really use visual identification though so it'll still show up the same.
     
  27. Bear

    Bear Trainee Engineer

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    28
    Visual cloak seems unrealistic, and if we go with both a radar and a visual they should not be able to coexist(too op).

    For radar cloaking, I suggest that radar should detect the amount of energy being used or running on a ship. So, to avoid radar, a pilot needs to click y and turn everything off. Visual cloaking, which theoretically could be done with lots of small cameras and projectors(very expensive) could not coexist with energy cloaking, because it requires energy to run.

    Both are very simple to implement, given radar is added. Installing visual cloaking would simply make your ship not render to people in other ships(I still think its op). Radar would simply detect ships in radius, and amount of energy use would determine size of signature on radar screen.
     
  28. jetcutter

    jetcutter Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    129
    This^
    Heat or Radiation signatures.
     
  29. mikeloeven

    mikeloeven Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,162
    I would totally like to see cloaking however i would like to see balanced cloaking like in eve online where while the field is active the ships speed is reduced to a crawl, weapons are non functional, and the cloak is broken if another ship gets too close
     
  30. kalnedrilith

    kalnedrilith Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    26
    all active sensors send out a signal, and 'see' based on the return signal.

    make the side of the ship that is toward the enemy deflect the signal in a direction away from the enemy, and it becomes invisible to that sensor.
    for thermal, heat sinks work fine, and a 'radiator' on the tail end of your ship to send the heat out the back, where your engine wash is going to be anyway, and all you are visible as is a thin cloud of 'something' - keep your engine emissions to a minimum, and you look like a BARELY brighter than ambient glow, with the possibility of a dark spot in the middle from your ship masking the thrust particles..

    so, lets see,
    - radar, useless, signals are deflected away from the sensor, so no return for the radar to pick up.
    - thermal, through the use of heat sinks and sending your thermal signature behind you, which you're already masking, nothing for the sensors to see
    - light, looks like i'm going with a mirror, the light sensors will pick up the reflected light from stars perpendicular to my trajectory (this would be a problem ONLY if the target is using stellar navigation on a star you happen to be blocking, but would probably still just look like an error to the navigation system, and might never tip off the threat detection software.(solution, approach from the position of an asteroid, their nav system will think you're just the asteroid blocking the system)
    - energy signature, there's this thing on earth called a Faraday cage - essentially it captures the EM energy and dissipates it along it's surface.. it does work both ways though, without something looking around it toward the target, your sensors would also be blind

    by the way, I do NOT believe that my ideas, even taken all together, would be particularly OP, primarily because it's rather unidirectional.. anything behind you is going to see ALL your energy signature, heat, light, engine wash.. so set up your sensors far enough apart and all looking toward one another, and you'll have one of two ways to be aware of an attack.. either one of your sensors dies/explodes, or it catches the attacking craft as soon as it passes the sensor on it's way toward your base.

    set those sensors on the outlying asteroids around your base, and they might not even be detected.

    my favorite way to cloak would be to remove the 'asteroids can't move' thing, and just use an asteroid as either an attack carrier, or as the shell of an attack craft.. or just throw the asteroid at the other guy's base.. which if they catch it would just be handing them resources... so /shrug


    all that would be hard to implement without WAY slowing down the system.. so how-about this, the device gets put on the outside of the ship, and anything in that direction receives some small percentage of the 'sensor' data picked up from the ship. everything in the opposite direction gets all that sensor data EXTRA... result, those people who thought, well i'll just put it all over my ship! HA! nice try, they'd cancel each other out and do you no good... actually, make it multiplicative.. ie put a 'cloak' for the front of the ship, and anything behind you gets 200% sensor feedback, while you only reduce the front to 20%.. so putting two on the front might reduce your signal to 4%, but your signature from behind would be 400%, so putting one on the front, and one on the back would mean you'd get : first device = 20% front, 200% back.. opposing device gives 120% forward AND 120% back.. further eliminating the value of putting the cloak front and back.. unless your plan is to intimidate your foe by looking WAY bigger.. which might work, but would be easier and more efficient by putting the 'cloak' on the wrong side of the ship.
     
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