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Combat Range

Discussion in 'General' started by BigDog, Dec 3, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. BigDog

    BigDog Trainee Engineer

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    The range of combat will depend on the weapon's ranges and damage output which will also affect how long combat lasts and how damaging it can be to a ship.
    Weapons with little range and little damage will create close quarter brawls between players and encourages ramming.
    long-ranged powerful guns could create 800 meter slugging matches between capital ships with fighters dogfighting in between.
    Also note that if a round is fired into space it should keep going until gravity gets its hands on it or it hits something so theoretically we could have unlimited range combat where long-range missiles are fired from as far away as possible and try to make it past a hail of point defense fire.
    So my question is what kind of range and damage would you like to see on weapons and why?
     
  2. Azi Dahaka

    Azi Dahaka Apprentice Engineer

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    I would like most of the combat to be close-range fighting. Now, by close range I mean close range in space. I'd say short range is 50-500m, medium is 500-1500, long is 1500-3000, and anything longer than that is sniping. To clarify, I would like projectiles to not slow and keep going until they hit something or despawn. However, accuracy with most weapons would be extremely poor at longer ranges as a few degrees of deviation can cause huge differences over a couple kilometres.
     
  3. Cyrus Deacon

    Cyrus Deacon Trainee Engineer

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    I was going to reply. But I could not have said this better. +1
     
  4. KriegsMeister

    KriegsMeister Apprentice Engineer

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    It depends on what you define as Close and Long range. On earth with modern ships and aircraft and their weapon systems, combat can range from a few hundred meters to several dozen kilometers, things like CIWS and aircraft machineguns have an effective range of a few hundred meters to about a kilometer. Ship Cannons and and Aircraft missiles have ranges of anywhere between 1-15 km. And then you have Cruise and Intercontinental ballistic missiles which pretty much have indefinite range. And all of that is while taking into account Earth's gravity, geometry and atmosphere. Then we also have some in-development weapons like combat Lasers and Magnetic Acceleration weapons that for the most part almost completely ignore those factors to become insanely accurate for insane distances.

    Now lets take all of these weapons and put them in space where you don't have to worry about bullet drop or air resistance or the curvature of the Earth, their effective range will increase by an insane amount. Take for example a G36C (which is what the ingame Assault Rifle is based of off) It fires standard 5.56x45mm NATO rounds with about a 750m/s muzzle velocity, here on Earth with air resistance and gravity affecting the bullet's speed and trajectory it's effective range is only a couple hundred meters, but in space it will retain that muzzle velocity for ever, never slowing down, and it will almost always fly in a perfectly straight line with only a fraction of degree deviation (and this could be further improved by removing the rifling on the gun which while in atmosphere imparts spin on the bullet which makes it more accurate but in space will actually bounce and deform the trajectory of the bullet in a very minute but significant way when considering such long ranges of possible space combat but we can go into those physics another day) But yeah, the weapon will be much more accurate and be able to take out more distant targets with relative ease.

    And that's just a little ol' carbine, now imagine what we could do with a Railgun whose current projected combat range on Earth is several dozen or even over 100km. The potential is astounding, but we still need to remember that this is a game so combat from 100km might not be feasible. So for me I think that the current weapons we have (Gatling guns and small Rockets) should have an effecitve range of about 0.5-2km, and then other weapons that may or may not be introduced later in development such as Larger missiles, Nukes, Lasers and Magnetic acceleration weapons should have an effective range of well over 10km and maybe nearing 50km depending on how stable they can make the game. Which even by modern day standards these ranges are pretty modest.
     
  5. MrBlack103

    MrBlack103 Trainee Engineer

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    In an indirect response to the above post:

    No nukes, please. Nuclear weaponry is severely reduced in effectiveness when it is used in a vacuum. There is no medium for the shockwave nor the heat of the explosion. Any physical damage is more likely to be from the shrapnel of the delivery device itself, which can just as easily be from conventional explosives or controlled projectiles. Not to mention the pressure will largely take the path of least resistance - into space, and not into the structure of the ship itself.
     
  6. Mac D

    Mac D Junior Engineer

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    521
    I could just add a +1 to each of the posts so far. Good thinking about this topic all round.

    I yesterday put this comment up on the main railgun thread.

    Talking about "effective ranges" and what ranges the game engine could handle like KriegsMeister is also a good discussion to have.

    I will be interested in giving very long range 10km to 100,000 km railgun and missile duels a go at some stage. I am not sure if such combat would be practical, easy, or fun. Worth giving it a go in a game with realistic physics at least once to see how it could work and what tactics would develop around it.

    The alpha game sand-box is around 100 km across at this stage (before too much weird stuff starts happening) to give an idea about in-game distances (to an order of magnitude).
     
  7. MrBlack103

    MrBlack103 Trainee Engineer

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    There's also going to be the effective range for any fighter escorts that larger ships or bases might have. If a fighter is more sturdy, has more ammunition etc it is less likely to fear straying too far from its base.

    If the effective range of a ship's fighter escort is larger than the ship's actual mounted weaponry, it suddenly adds a whole new tactical dynamic to combat.
     
  8. Mac D

    Mac D Junior Engineer

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    521
    ^^^^^^ I agree with MrBlack103 on this one.

    Looking at the game so far, I get the impression that ammo storage and fuel levels are going to be important for fighters in-game. Will be good to see a few wings of fighters and bombers jet out to engage up close a few larger "artillery ships" trying to safely bombard the main battle with railguns and long-range missiles from dozens of km away.
     
  9. TechyBen

    TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    It would be very hard to cover realistic attacks in space. I'd assume it would be MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) in most instances. :/
     
  10. ataaron

    ataaron Apprentice Engineer

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    just add some asteroid fields for small ship battles and free spaces for large ship battles
     
  11. BigDog

    BigDog Trainee Engineer

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    antimatter weapons could be used. Antimatter could also be used as a powerful but dangerous fuel for ships. It should also be hard to produce of course and even harder to weaponize
     
  12. jlf1976

    jlf1976 Apprentice Engineer

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    For the purposes of this game at least, I would like to see the combat limited to the viewable distance. Maybe a few long range guided ordinances, but you shouldn't be able to simply fire a couple of missiles to take out the other cruiser from a distance. Launching of fighters should be encouraged and combat should be driven so that it almost always ends with a close up fight. After all, we are fighting over resources, we need to go where the resources are.
     
  13. KriegsMeister

    KriegsMeister Apprentice Engineer

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    Nukes are still effective in space via two different ways

    1.) If it detonates in empty space it basically becomes a giant EMP device with a radius of several kilometers, used as such it could temporarily disable ships and stations within that large radius (IRL it would be permanent but this is still a game and that wouldn't be fun)

    2.) If it the physical device comes into contact with an enemy ship while detonating it will still have tremendous amounts of physical force that would tear the ship apart. but again that is only if the warhead comes into contact with the target
     
  14. The Leftenant

    The Leftenant Apprentice Engineer

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    I would like something similar to how space combat is described in the Mass Effect universe. The larger capital ships (dreadnaught-class and above) sit at the edge of the combat zone shooting at each other while the smaller capital ships (heavy cruisers and below) duke it out up close with fighters in between. Think Battle of Midway, where the enemy fleets never actually got within line-of-sight of each other.
     
  15. killerdude

    killerdude Apprentice Engineer

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    102
    I've always been a fan of the Extreme range battles that took place with the Battleship of WWII, I would LOVE to see some weapons to fit that role sometime in the future, Alongside the smaller, closer ranged weapons.
     
  16. Skeloton

    Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    Its funny i was thinking the same about Mass Effect.
     
  17. Mengmoshu

    Mengmoshu Trainee Engineer

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    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Honor Harrington books yet. While I don't think those sort of ranges (millions of kilometers) are suitable, I do kinda like the idea of an engagement range that consists of missiles and countermeasures. In the Honorverse if you can use directed energy weapons then it's close combat.

    So I guess what I'd really like to see is combat within the view distance using the existing weapons and constructs which tends to divide into short and long range. Then maybe some day an "over the horizon" equivalent combat range using very large easier to shoot down missiles. (AI piloted small ships?)
     
  18. anybodysguess

    anybodysguess Apprentice Engineer

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    I think that the Bullets should not slow, because they wouldn't in space, also they should not despawn until they reach the edge of a "cell" if that is how they end up making the procedural generated worlds work.
    I think it would be interesting to be in a freighter and somewhere miles away is a epic battle and suddenly in comes a hail of rail gun bullets!


    I have not done extensive testing. But it seems that the assault rifle does not have unlimited range. I will construct a huge target and do more testing. I think its effective range should only be limited by its accuracy, which seems to be quite poor.[

    Anybody watch Stargate SG1? On the X-304 remember the railguns with tracer rounds, they used them like water hoses, just spraying bullets everywhere. It was great!
     
  19. Stiletto

    Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

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    While I wholeheartly agree about giving the game a more realistic spin on potential space combat ranges, from short to extreme ones, let's not forget that we don't have access to the actual things as of yet.

    Also, we do have to put in consideration of the game engine's limitations and obvious compromises needed to make the gameplay enjoyable for all of us.

    Though, I would love to have extremely long to short combat ranges like you folks myself, that would be incredibly cool. :D
     
  20. jlf1976

    jlf1976 Apprentice Engineer

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    +1 to what Stiletto said. While I would love to see true space combat realized in a game somewhere, SE probably won't be that game. The engine just isn't robust enough for such distances, nor accurate enough with the physics.

    That doesn't mean it still won't be fun.
     
  21. ArcherV

    ArcherV Apprentice Engineer

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    We can hear the assault rifle when its shoots. So yes to nukes...
     
  22. Falidell

    Falidell Apprentice Engineer

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    the suit plays sounds to give the user a better sense of surroundings.... you don't actually hear the gun.... you can't hear in vacuum
     
  23. Skeloton

    Skeloton Master Engineer

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    Makes sense, the Mass Effect universe had audio emulators to help people cope with the silence of space.
     
  24. Slade

    Slade Trainee Engineer

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    Shattered Horizons also did the suit emulated sounds.
     
  25. anybodysguess

    anybodysguess Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm fairly sure that you would hear the gun, because you are holding it, the sound waves can travel through the body of the gun, through the material of your suit, and into the air in your suit. If you were standing on the floor of a ship you should be able to hear impacts and engine noise and such because it would travel through the hull.
     
  26. SaturaxCZ

    SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    I agree, but sound from resonations are diferent from sound you normaly hear.
     
  27. anybodysguess

    anybodysguess Apprentice Engineer

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    I'm sure they are, but us terrestrials would think it sounds weird, and I don't think anybody knows what a gun sounds like when fired from inside a space suit in a vacuum. So I think normal sounds for connected objects will work just fine.
     
  28. ArcherV

    ArcherV Apprentice Engineer

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    https://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#boom

    Very interesting @ nuke vs spacecraft
     
  29. bwc153

    bwc153 Trainee Engineer

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    The assault rifle is touching your character. As such, no air is needed (outside the suit) to hear the sound.
    Please place your hand against your ear in such a way that you would be holding your ears to block sound. Then bang on your elbow repeatedly. You will hear the vibrations through your arm.

    (practical way of explaining what everyone else just said ;) )
     
  30. ArcherV

    ArcherV Apprentice Engineer

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    166
    Hm k i understand that.
    But it is possible to see the muzzle flash in vacuum/space?

    Since it is damn cold in space the muzzle flash should be smaller?
     
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