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Mareks Dev Blog: using ships from the workshop

Discussion in 'General' started by Lancar, Dec 4, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Lancar

    Lancar Senior Engineer

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    As said by Marek in his recent dev blog post
    https://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-exploration-call-for_3.html
    a
    nd as indicated in the poll linked in it, it seems very likely that Keen will use our workshop added ships as a base for adding exploration content.

    I'm all for this idea, but feel there needs to be some sort of additional interaction from our side before a ship or station get seeded into a game world.
    As Marek said, some ships are simply not suitable. This is either due to copyright, using modded blocks, or just junk submitted for other purposes than gameplay such as bug fixing.

    I would like to see some sort of "submit" button or similar added to the workshop for this. Perhaps we could tag our creations with "Game Seedable" or something along those lines, to indicate that we've built this particular thing to be suitable for inclusion into the procedurally generated game world for other players to discover.
    Naturally, Keen always has the final say on which creations to include, but with this they'd have a starting point instead of having to manually inspect every single construct in the steam workshop, wasting time and money better spent on actual development.

    Also, this would instantly dispel any and all arguments about creative ownership of a certain design (no matter how legal or not it may be).
    If you tag your ship with this, you forfeit any right you had to complain about it, and in return you (might) get your stuff added in the base game.

    I know I'd do it. How about you?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2014
  2. soat7ch

    soat7ch Junior Engineer

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    It would certainly help those people who want to filter out the useless stuff.
    I have uploaded some useless stuff to the workshop myself and would like to tage those ships that are usable as such.
     
  3. JamesL86

    JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    I feel like I don't really have a horse in this race because I never upload anything I create. However, I think it would be easier for the devs to actually sort through workshop ships if a submit feature was added that was filterable in some way. Also, as Lancar pointed out, it would pretty much nullify the whole "no, I don't want my ship in your game, blah blah blah, intellectual property" whinny crap.
     
  4. Leadfootslim

    Leadfootslim Senior Engineer

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    1,300
    I can't see anyone arguing against this; less work for Keen, more peace of mind for any Terms-of-Service squabbles, and - most importantly - it'd give people a chance to custom-tailor their submissions. Nothing to lose.

    I could see KSH supplementing submissions by also sending out invitations to the makers of highly-rated creations (that meet their criteria) in case those people aren't closely watching the news space.
     
  5. MegaMiner

    MegaMiner Junior Engineer

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    Well, by publishing them on the workshop you are declaring them public property. If you dont want them going in everyones game, dont publish them. That said, some things I have made are not suitable as Procedural Content. I would prefer an Opt in/Opt out feature, so I could at least self sort what I think would be useful to others.

    I definitely want the ability to filter other peoples content, otherwise we end up with hoards of dick ships
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  6. Thedevistator

    Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    The poll seems slightly biased though, because they act like number 3 is the best and should go that way, not saying that's a bad thing just saying
     
  7. entspeak

    entspeak Senior Engineer

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    But they are subscriptions and you have a choice to make them private and you have the choice to remove them from the workshop. And, the difference is that nobody is making money off of your creation - which would clearly be the case here. They would be using workshop creations to save money and would, in essence use your creation to make money. Also, the Subscription Agreement doesn't allow them to simply take whatever user-generated content they want. It states that content can be "considered" for inclusion... that doesn't mean they can just take it if they want. A user survey isn't going to take precedence over an individual's Subscriber Agreement.

    I think having a "submit for consideration" option in the workshop during early access would be the best solution. It can always be removed once they've got the ships they need. There would still be tons of submissions - I have ships that I'd love to have in the game - but, then it would be the player's choice and more in keeping with the Subscriber Agreement as I understand it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  8. Cronos988

    Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    I think the idea is solid, though I, too would like some actual interaction with the creator of the work before the work is included.

    What I am worried about is balance. Even with the current cargo ships, there are some that offer absurdly high amounts of resources and have basically no protection, while others offer relatively appropriate rewards for the risk in tackling them. With more prefab ships, the differences will only increase.
     
  9. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

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    1,503
    I think it is better to make a procedural generation for ships, but add a number of custom ships from the workshop.
    Most ships you encounter would be autogenerated, but rare number of them will be custom ships. That would add more enjoyment to exploration and it would be more awesome to find a uniqu ship :3

    Oh, and I'd like to see my ships added to the game. It's not like it's going to happen, since there are much more designs that are way better, but whatever :)
     
  10. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I wouldn't mind seeing a number of my ships flying through space as I've made bare bones freighters and whatnot. But I wonder if nominees will have to be restricted to vanilla parts considering that I tend to standardize a lot of my vessels now with Darth Biomechs Airlock and usually at least a bunk.
     
  11. DJToxica

    DJToxica Apprentice Engineer

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    Why don't they just use a basic set of ships.
    The ones we now have...

    If a server owner wants more, he can include Workshop Ships with world generation...
    So no Problem with copyright stuff.

    Everything else would be too much the effort...
     
  12. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

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    I guess, that's because there are too few of them.
     
  13. Krovennan

    Krovennan Apprentice Engineer

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    While seeing people's ships in the game would be interesting, I still believe that creator interaction is necessary before implementation. There may be 50000 creations, but there are not 50000 creators, and not even all of those will be considered. If you take someone's ship without even telling them, you have done them a great disservice, they'll feel cheated and probably steer their friends away from the game, even more so given the fact that using someone's ship WILL save money and Dev time.

    It seems to me the very least KeenSWH can do, if they're going to use our ships, is ask our permission beforehand. Simply asking permission to use a creator's roster of ships is not labour intensive, and if I decide I only want to share among a couple people, want to use the workshop as an online backup for my ships, or I simply don't want to give a reason for declining, Keen should honour that and not include my ships. I put the hours into building the ship, by all rights, the decision should be mine.
     
  14. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

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    2,596
    Well Krovennan the whole survey and blog thing is probably the start of that.
    Even if there is a tagging/submitting feature added to allow the devs to find the appropriate ships, the influx of vanilla ships that people will build to get their name on the credits will be staggering.
    I'm of the opinion that they should ask some people to help vet the ships that appear on the workshop for inclusion and that way get a smaller more ready list passed on to them to consider. That drops their work load, means they can keep working on the code more, and lets some of us help them out.
    I'd certainly be up for exploring and vetting ships.
     
  15. Leadfootslim

    Leadfootslim Senior Engineer

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    1,300
    Perhaps the thread title should be changed to mention the "submit" suggestion? :p

    Volunteer vetting would be good to give KSH a narrower list of near-final candidates, for certain. And more community involvement would definitely help.
     
  16. Communist Penguin

    Communist Penguin Apprentice Engineer

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    +1

    It would also be useful so I can still build ships with mod parts and upload modified vanilla versions aswell
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  17. Lancar

    Lancar Senior Engineer

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    I intentionally left the suggestion bit out to encourage discussion of the issue more than just my brand of solution for it :)
    The blog did say they wanted our feedback.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  18. entspeak

    entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    They will allow communities to use modded ships instead of vanilla ones, but it makes no sense to include modded ships in the vanilla game - not everyone is going to have or want those mods.
     
  19. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    you submit the ship to the public workshop and you dont want it to be randomly included to the game? makes no sense. Make it private then! like what? oh dooh I made that ship give me some money, get out of here! makes me mad...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  20. fabricator77

    fabricator77 Apprentice Engineer

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    399
    I'm also wondering what this means for "Cargo Ship" mods, will the majority become extinct because Keen have included them in the game directly ?
    There is no practical difference between a blueprint and a prefab used in spawn/cargo ship mods, 99.9% of the file is the same.

    Anyone else find it odd that Keen are fishing for "donated" mission levels, and workshop ships in the same month ?
     
  21. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

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    2,596
    They're making a sandbox and giving us the tools to create worlds, ships, and missions. They're also wanting to include player-created content in the game. That's not a bad thing in my opinion, that's awesome community-inclusion.
    If your point is that they're 'cheating' by using players to make their game then so what?! They're a small team with a big vision, I'm happy and honoured to help.
     
  22. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    I can confirm that I am 100% vibrating with excitement.
     
  23. Krovennan

    Krovennan Apprentice Engineer

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    I didn't say anything about getting money, I'm pretty sure nobody else said anything about getting money, only you said anything about getting money. Like it or not, they ARE saving money by taking player ships, so if they want to implement my Tigershark (assuming I can figure out the backup save after I had to reset my PC and get it back) then I deserve some goddamn agency over it's inclusion. I don't give a damn about money, I care about having the last say in how my ships are used, and I don't owe anyone an explanation for how I choose or choose not to have it distributed.

    Whether I choose to put up ships for inclusion or not should be my choice. Allow me to reiterate I lost my save when I sent in my PC to be fixed. Unless the file I copied can be put back properly, I've lost all those ships in my thread with the exception of the Buzzard and Beluga, which I decided to put up on the workshop to share with the community, if I had known they would be used without my express consent, or even my knowledge until it happened, I would feel cheated and unvalued, and I wouldn't have done it. Hell, what if I decide I don't like the game in a few months and find out they're using my old designs in a game I don't even like anymore? In what way should I feel "grateful" in that situation?

    They see value in my ships enough to include them? Fine, that's a nice compliment, but I will have the last say, and I'm not going to be in their debt over it. Keen is a wonderful group and have been open and honest with the community, is it so unreasonable to ask the same treatment in this situation?
     
  24. Jarin

    Jarin Trainee Engineer

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    I get where you're coming from, here. It seems like the best option is a tagging system. I think I'd prefer to make it an opt-out rather than an opt-in, since it's still entirely a courtesy of the devs, as the workshop license gives them baseline rights to use things posted there (morality vs. legality, I'm not disagreeing with your position here either). What would you think of just making an opt-out flag like tagging the ship "unique" or something for people who don't want their creations to end up implemented in core?
     
  25. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    it was not direct to you, I was being a little harsh. yeah the money thing... like... I really will not going to understand if somebody start to complain if the game will use some of your ships, also I think he said that your name/nickname will be included in the credits, dont remember now, which I think is not even necessary. Like I said, just put it on private, problem solved
     
  26. Krovennan

    Krovennan Apprentice Engineer

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    That's all I want, literally all of my problem are solved with a simple "Mark for inclusion" checkbox. I don't even mind the idea of seeing my ships in the game, but I'd like at least to know that it's happening and have an option to opt out on certain creations. It would be simple to implement, and would solve all problems, 10/10 best feature ever. That's not an unreasonable request is it?
     
  27. entspeak

    entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    It's more the principle of the thing - and it's definitely not about giving me money. It is only about money in the sense that the developers are paid to create content for the game. And, certainly any content a dev makes belongs to Keen. That's not the case with the workshop. The Subscriber Agreement does not, as far as I can tell, allow them to take any content they want from the workshop and include it in-game without consulting the content creator first. It's about having a choice. People keep claiming that uploading to the workshop makes your stuff public domain and anyone can do whatever they want with it, but that's just not true - not according to that agreement. We should have a choice - and it's not for Keen to make that choice for us and that choice should not be subject to the whim of a majority.

    That's why I am for the idea of using an opt-in "submit for consideration" option in the workshop while Keen is looking for ships/stations to include. This way, we have the active choice and Keen can still make use of the workshop for content... win-win. An opt-out solution would mean that everyone would have to go through all of their workshop content and turn off the ones they don't want included. Some people have a lot of ships on the workshop. An opt-in would mean they'd only have to change it for those ships they would like to be considered for inclusion and not have to go through every single ship they built.

    This would also save time for Keen. Ships that have opted-in will most likely be ready for inclusion and so, the sorting process will be easier and less time consuming.

    I'd love to have some ships included in the game. I think it'd be a cool challenge to make ships and stations for that. But there may be some designs that it would be odd to randomly come across. "Oh, that's a ship made by my 'corporation'... oh and it's trying to kill me." May be okay for some, but not for everyone... we should have a choice. I didn't buy the game so that Keen or the community could take that choice away from me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2014
  28. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

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    2,596
    "You grant Valve and its affiliates the non-exclusive, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site."
    This is in the section of the Steam Subscriber Agreement marked 'User Generated Content' so I believe this is the passage that Marek refers to in his blog.
    Not only that but:
    People actually keep claiming that uploading to the workshop makes your stuff available to the devs to do whatever they want, which it seems the SSA does allow.
    Having said all that, I do agree with the opt-in submission idea. Not only does it prevent people complaining about the inclusion of their ship, but it means less ships to have to consider, and a filter to find them.
    As always, I also think the devs should ask some members of the community to try and vet these submissions for them, something I'd be happy to do.
     
  29. soat7ch

    soat7ch Junior Engineer

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    I fully agree with you (as we already did in all the other threads about this topic ;) ) and i would be interested in offering part of my time to be the first line of defense against all those creations that won't fit into the game.
     
  30. Steelpanther

    Steelpanther Apprentice Engineer

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    I doubt that Keen suddenly bought out Value. And affiliate typically means a much stronger relationship than having your game up for sale on your software.(could though, depends how Valve decided to apply it.)

    Sometimes those rights are revoked when the creator pulls the creation down as well.
     
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