Update 01.062 - Super-large worlds, Procedural asteroids and Exploration

I did some more playing. A quick overview. I was lucky enough to find uranium on my starting asteroid. I maxed out the range for my beacon without worry. Most ore types were 10 km out. I later found that nickel was be 5 km out. Unfortunately, it took me to about 25 km out before I found silicon. I also found it difficult to retrace my steps back to sources of ore. I have the general idea of where to look, but I would need to do some wondering around to find them again. I'm not happy about this, as it has increased the difficulty in getting a new game started.

Since cargo ships were enabled by default (and I didn't turn them off when I generated the map), I ended up nabbing a few private sails. I got some other ships, but I wanted the private sails because they can be solar powered beacons. For 200 kW (which can be covered by 2 solar panels indefinitely), I can use the antenna to tag things nearly 50 km out (and keep an eye for more ships). Considering that the only source of silicon that I've found thus far is 25 km out, I need them. I would hate to have to mine all the resource manually before I could build equivalent ships the hard way.

I don't know the odds of finding ships in this game (the new ships recently added), but I haven't found any yet. Just the old kind like private sails.

As already mentioned, some sort of nav system would be very valuable. In these new maps, I've found it hard to figure out where you've been, and what locations are worth returning to. Some means to mark a location in your computer system would be handy. Additional features, like sorting bookmarks, or hiding bookmarks (so your UI doesn't get cluttered), could be used to help make sense of your surroundings.

 

As cool as a doughnut shaped asteroid might be, they aren't very realistic. Most asteroids are thought to have been formed by a process called accretion. Small bits of matter begin to clump together to form larger ones. Eventually asteroids and even planets are formed. Most real asteroids look like lumpy potatoes as a result. None of them have a hole in the middle. Asteroids with a hole in the middle should be rare, like one in a thousand or so.

 

So like the asteroid behind the doughnut is more realistic

 

Yeah, 50% of the ship missing would count as derelict
https://imgur.com/a/N6qcr
Still the reactor survived, even if the cockpit didn't.

 

yay, now i have some place to take my mobile factory.

 

Aw, but Hauler worked fine before ._.

 

Really hope we get a map after this, it's getting harder and harder to navigate.


Really though, what can I say, I have pushed and wanted this update since I got here over a year ago now. Keen, you have my eternal praise after this. Thank you.

 

I like the direction this is going, but it definitely needs a lot more polish.
A few points I can think of:
- Navigational System. Not that hard I would think, just show us coordinates. Make it possible to make waypoints. In another thread the idea was mentioned to have a "ship computer" block that saves the waypoints, which could be lost if you loose the block or power.

- Asteroid generation needs to be improved. I have found a few very nice ones and the tunnel and hole generation creates exceptionally good caverns and holes. A lot of "shells" remind me of fractals, though and there are a lot of donuts. I would also suggest to adjust the grouping so the asteroids generate a bit more centralized in clusters. Maybe 2-5 asteroids with a few smaller rocks in a 5-10km sphere. In that way you can concentrate your actions on a region. At the moment the single asteroids are too far apart. For me a average distance of 15-20km to other clusters would be good. This would work in favor of MP-faction-play and even support the faction designs for exploration mode.

litte side note: maybe a new tool, a gravity detector. Fly through space and a compass-like arrow points to a nearby center of gravity. That way you could navigate from cluster to cluster, leave beacons for navigation.

my 2 cents so far.

 

From the look of that ship, it ran INTO something to cause that kind of catastrophic damage, and it wasn't the rotors exploding, as one is left.

Sudden deceleration could have torn the door off that one that's left, and the only thing I can think of was a Procedural 'roid was in it's flight path. If it was truly running at 104m/s, that could account for it, especially if it only 'clipped' the rock.

And remember, you were chasing it, and could 'see' it till it vanished. Quite possibly a roid jumped out and attacked it.

 

Use Midspace' Mega script. Find something you like, use /pos in chat to get the location. Want to get back there from your base, use /setvector to aim you ship, then accelerate.

I know, it's a bit like cheating, but ONLY mostly if you use the teleport functions.

 

At the current speed cap, and assuming you start from the center, it would take about 150 years to reach the edge of the world. I think they can safely increase the speed cap some without this being an issue. Even bumping it up to 1000 m/s shouldn't be an issue, it would still take 15 years.

 

GREAT Update!! However, by searching through this thread for hints on how to setup a dedicated server with these new settings I only found this post where it is stated to add

<ProceduralDensity>0.25</ProceduralDensity>
<ProceduralSeed>740643198</ProceduralSeed>

to the config file and world's save config. Can anyone confirm that this is working?

 

A link for the lazy

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=316190120

 

Keen FIX YOUR GAME, Rotors and Pistons still suck, check this thread out https://forums.keenswh.com/post/rotor-piston-stability-multiple-grid-ships-7171163?&trail=15 and respond already!

Not to be a dick but most of my best ship don't even work as ships because when I move them parts break and my ships go BOOM!!! In my opinion this means this game does not work, so I have not been playing it though I would really like to, but then I think to myself what's the point what ever I build no matter how cleverly I think it is built. It just goes boom. So please fix the Rotors and Pistons with out them working or in the game the ingenuity in this game is dull and pointless. Someone just told me that I might like a game called Starmade more than Space Engineers so I am downloading the demo right now (may not have even considered that if SE wasn't broken, just saying). My bro said that because his retractable solar panels kept breaking off inside his ship and destroying it that he once again wouldn't purchase this game, I'm tired of hearing him B!tch at me as if it were my fault for turning him on to SE, I know he just really wants SE to be the great game it has the potential to be. I really miss playing SE. Well Starmade just finished downloading so Peace.

Posted post playing Starmade: I just lost sixty minutes of my life that I can never get back.:bawl:

 

From the blog:

I hereby request Warp-drives or something similar! I don't have 552 years! :rof:

Maybe only allow the warp-drives to jump a certain amount of world clusters (defined as a config option).

 

We need some space cheese for that space whine.

 

Why would you need to travel across that far in the first place? Also for the people who keep saying to up the speed limit HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT the HAVOK PHYSICS currently DONT handle well at faster speeds then the current cap.

 

I hope they implement these ideas! You are spot on with this!

The generation is a great start but needs improvement. Needs more randomization, clustering of asteroids, and better shapes and ore distribution.

When it comes to the new exploration ships/bases feature, the spawn rates need to be increased and they need to randomly be powered on with active defenses to make capturing actually interesting. Also it would be nice if they had randomized inventories, as right now a lot seem to be filled to the brim with resources.

 

Another point I must make currently keen has VERY FEW PLAYER EXPLORATION SHIPS IN THE GAME like 20. This will increase over time and I doubt they are even done looking through the first wave of them and more are to come that's why their are so few ships.

 

Wow, I didn't expect an update this Thursday and its quite frankly...EPIC! Thanks Keen! This looks awesome!

 

As per your recommendation, I just posted an epic summation of all the potential game features, or lack-there-of, which keep me up at night: (https://forums.keenswh.com/post?id=7218482), with the INS at the top of the list.

As to keeping things balanced, lets look at modern day aviation:

The first tool that pilots use to get around is visual pilotage. We do this all the time in SE, learning the layout of the field, finding common points and references. Pilots use aeronautical charts called Sectionals (and WACs, TACs, etc) to locate themselves, you can see what this looks like here: (https://skyvector.com/). We don't have 3D maps in SE yet, but it would be nice, and totally within the realm of computer vision and SLAM (Simultaneous Localization and Mapping) for the tech of 2077, all using vision alone. To build a map, you would just have to fly around while your computer system builds a map from all the asteroids it observes with a spherical stitched camera system (The F-35 has a stitched camera system that allows the pilot to sit in a "chair in the sky", not hard in 2077).

All modern aircraft; small single-engine aircraft, jet liners, and military aircraft, use various radio navigation methods to locate themselves. These navigation aids are mainly GPS and VOR. VOR is a system that tells your how far you are from the station (as Beacons and Antennas already do in SE), and they also provide the bearing to the station (2D, would have to be 3D in SE). GPS of course is based on at least 4 GPS satellites to determine the intersection between 4 spheres using timing. The use of XYZ beacons in servers is pretty much the analog of this.

Not so common on small aircraft, but universal on jet liners and other long-range aircraft, is the INS, or Inertial Navigation System. The step above this is the ANS, or Astro-Inertial Navigation System, such as that used on the SR-71 Blackbird, and the Apollo missions, and all deep-space mission ever since. Even with modern day technology, these can drift over time, such that, whether moving at 1000 mph or standing still on the tarmac, the system will lose a few km and ~0.1 degrees per hour.

With new MEMS accelerometer and gyroscope devices such as in your smart phone, small aircraft are starting to get the same grade of INS as that had decades ago. It isn't a stretch to have one or two of the computers that we weld into the cockpit of our space fighter in 2077 to have a full INS suite. But to address the balance issue: I'll bet that even space-grade, insitu-manufactured tech of 2077 will be "good enough", sort of like how we accept MP3's over CDs and movies streamed over the internet rather than DVDs/Bluray. Being "Good Enough" means that the system will be lossy, and you may need to return to base every hour or so to reset the position estimate to (0,0,0), or whatever you decide your base coordinates should be. Otherwise, after several hours, the position estimate will be off by several km and you will be slightly lost.

I don't really like the idea of having the INS being very lossy in SE, and would like it to be far more accurate if not perfect. The only way then to justify having it may be that it is easy to lose the position estimate, such as powering down while coasting. But even this seems a bit draconian, and realistically, such an important system would have a back-up battery. Powering a MEMS-based INS should only be milliwatts, so a large 2077 backup capacitor would be able to maintain the INS estimate indefinitely. What does make sense is having the cockpit or remote control block being destroyed, thus losing the INS.

But this is all missing one important thing: Is navigation only going to be available to ships, or will the player character's suit also have an INS integrated in it? I would like to see a full INS in the character suit, because the technology needed is basically a cellphone, like what is already mounted to the character's left arm. As long as the character suit is powered, which basically means as long as our character is alive, the INS position estimate is communicated between his suit and the ship. Whenever the character builds a new Remote Control block or cockpit/ control station, the character's INS position estimate is seamlessly transferred to the new INS being installed. Whenever a character jumps out of his ship to hunt for ore, his suit is synced to his ship's INS, and both ship and character INS estimates are fantastically stable if not perfect. The only remaining issue is how to initialize the (0,0,0) position, which, because factions might interact with each other, may as well be the universal/actual world origin. We can assume that when new players spawn in the world, either as a astronaut suit or in a spawn ship, they enter the world with the INS already calibrated to the sector's universally accepted origin.

I think in the end, we just accept that having the navigation system in SE is "free", sort of like the blueprints projector. It takes minimal energy, basically the power already required by the Remote Control block or the cockpit, and adds a lot of functionality that we all have silently been screaming for. Does this mean we scrap antennas for navigation? Probably, yes, but we will still use those to control ship systems remotely, to act as mesh networks for remote controlling drones, and potentially for being the comms network for faction chat messages, a function I would like to see. Antennas are also a fine signaling device for navigation, such as revealing your position without having to type out the coordinates or revealing them in the general chat console.

I hope the developers have considered, or will consider, these arguments, and I look forward to seeing how they implement navigation.


EDIT: Just noticed your line "...any new navigation system would have to be clearly justified compared to the existing system of antenna broadcasting and beacons. If a beacon's signal is set to unlimited, you always can find your way back...". Don't know if you noticed, but beacons don't do the infinity thing anymore, at least, not the small beacons. Fairly sure large beacons also now only go to 50km.

 

Try increasing the displacement slider on the rotors :thumb:

 

Why would you need to travel across that far in the first place?
Why not? Maybe I want to rush to a friend's defense, maybe it would be an awesome move towards a strategic attack, maybe I need to make a quick exit, there many reasons why.

...HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT the HAVOK PHYSICS currently DONT handle well at faster speeds then the current cap.
Sorry to say... I don't follow you and therefore have no idea how many times you say that... but now I know you have said it at least once! :thumb:

As for the high speeds... easy fix... just gotta think outside of the black-hole:
Step 1 client/server: Move the ship in the right direction until it hits it's top speed.
Step 2 client: After top speed has been reached, do some video card magic and stretch the surroundings.
Step 3 client: After the video stretch, stop drawing objects but leave stretched background.
Step 4 client/server: remove ship from current position then place it into the new world cluster.
Step 5 client: Update all clients with, the ship's new coordinates and a visible graphics showing exit/entry of the warped ship.

Tadaaaa..! no worries on the so called speed cap. I can't imagine this being any more intensive than when a player joins a server. And, should be easy to implement... so says the guy who has very little programming experience! :comp:

 

Well I remember hearing problems about little silicon flew to first asteroid first thing a found a HUGE deposits of silicon .

 

Its randomized. SOmebody might get all the ores on first 3 asteroids, somebody might get all except one ore, that might be even 100km away from you. RNG is a biatch.

 

I think I under stand the problem currently asteroids are made up of 45% iron, 10 to 20% other ores, and the rest stone. To fix it I think it should be 30% iron, 25 to 35% other ores, and the rest stone.

 

I've uploaded a video of the old server world converted over to a procedurally generated world. Paste in those lines to both the server config and world file, modify the parameters in them as you wish, then run the server. I don't feel like looking for my mic atm, so its without audio though.

<ProceduralDensity>0.5</ProceduralDensity>
<ProceduralSeed>1763206327</ProceduralSeed>

the .5 from the first line can be lowered, .5 is the value for the dense setting
the seed from the second line can be any integer, different numbers there meen different asteroids in different places.

 

I love this! Sadly, or detectors seem to be broken. Otherwise amazing job!

 

I was just playing on a Keen testing server and some guys had problem with regenerating asteroid

No matter how much he dug it, it eventurally respawned all iron after some time. So he build an base in it and like 20 to 30 minutes later it was full of iron

Other ores did not respawn, jsut the iron.

 

I've actually played with the density, and have concluded you can go higher that the max:

.5 = Infinite/High Density
.75 = Infinite/Mega Density
1.00= Infinite/Ultra Density

I haven't tried to push it past 1.00 yet ops: