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build blackpowder weapons and artillery

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by knight133, Jan 22, 2015.

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  1. knight133

    knight133 Trainee Engineer

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    matchlocks, to wheellocks, to doglocks, to artillery that uses blackpowder and, even the power of making it plain would just be grand for Medieval Engineers. I'd prefer the black-powder Dog-lock muskets.
     
  2. Merandix

    Merandix Junior Engineer

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    520
    Most of the stuff didn't exist in the Medieval period the game is in.
    Matchlock - appeared in Europe in the mid 15th century - barely inside the scope of this game.
    Wheellock - appeard around the early 16th centurey - outside the scope of this game
    Doglocks - 17th century - very much outside the scope of this game.

    the game is 'generally medieval, 5th to 15th century, as stated by Marek Rosa in his interview with Arron from LSG.

    Also remember that gunpowder weaponry generally would be prone to failure, blackpowder was hard to make (recipes didn't use exact measurements, so it was guesswork) and metallurgy wasn't up to the task half of the time. Early hand cannons actually were mounted on long poles for safety. Also, they generally were less effective than contemporary weapons of the time. Bows and trebuchets generally would give you more range and power. If they are implemented, I would love to see us struggle to make blackpowder through medieval non-scientific recipes. Also, the ingredients were incredibly hard to acquire.
     
  3. muffins

    muffins Trainee Engineer

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    They were building these bad boys back in 1449.

    (Mons Meg)
    [​IMG]

    Imagine if you could build bombards the same way as catapults in the game (with blocks) then load them with gunpowder blocks which create physical force when ignited. If the charge is too great or the metal isn't strong enough your bombard explodes. If it doesn't explode then the projectile is propelled out of the barrel by the physics.
     
  4. Zh3sh1re

    Zh3sh1re Trainee Engineer

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    I always imagine some slow-loading, fat cannons prone with failure and inaccurate, as well as slow to move. But I think they should be a part of the game, just very late game. Most of the technology should still be catapults, ballistas and trebunchets.
     
  5. Martinineter

    Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    2,253
    I think that cannons would be a case of bigger=better instead of the engineering marvels that come from building trebuchets of catapults. Player build weapons would just mean that battles will be more versitile and players can be amazed by the awesome siege machine that their opponent build instead of the size of their cannon...
    Traversing unknown lands whilst building your weapon (advanced sling mechanisms, gear systems, building up tension) is also more fun than just trying different sizes of barrels and fiddling with different amounts of gunpowder IMO.

    However, exploding barrels filled with gunpowder should still be present, because explosions, fun and explosions
     
  6. Roebuck17

    Roebuck17 Trainee Engineer

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    I feel the only use for gunpowder should be barrels or kegs which could be rolled to a gate and ignited to breach
     
  7. Chrono13

    Chrono13 Apprentice Engineer

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    I'll reiterate what I said in another thread.

    [SIZE= 13.1428575515747px]I think the use of Gunpowder (a bit of a game changer) SHOULD be in the game [/SIZE]<em style="font-size: 13.1428575515747px;">HOWEVER</em>[SIZE= 13.1428575515747px] it should be something the host decides if it is accessible in their game/server. That way you can control what "age" your game takes place. Purists get their stone throwing and Field scorpions, and sappers get their cannons and powder barrels. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 13.1428575515747px]It is a [/SIZE]HUGE[SIZE= 13.1428575515747px] part of the game that I don't think should simply be left up to modders to develop. Absolutely the traditional tech should come first, and gunpowder second (like in the real word). You could also have something like a need to research the technology before it can be used. That way in your servers, only the more advanced factions will have a Dardanelles Gun ^_-

    In addition, (early) Cannons where a pain, effective, but also a pain. They required a massive amount of resources to build, huge amount of metal, months of forging, possibly years, depending on the cannon. They are a chore to move, a cannon like the [/SIZE][SIZE= 13.1428575515747px]Dardanelles Gun required nearly 200 people to move. That's the thing, moving a large metal cannon from your castle to the field of battle would be a very slow process, you can't just break it down and set it up when you get there.

    Many siege weapons where built on site with the surrounding wood and stone, a Cannon has to be brought from home. Also Cannons require specific ammo, unlike a catapult you can't just shove random rocks in it, you need purpose built ammo, so your shots are limited.

    Cannons are NOT super weapons, they are advanced weapons, with advanced demands and logistics.
    [/SIZE]
     
  8. Roebuck17

    Roebuck17 Trainee Engineer

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    I think the only use for gunpowder in the game should be kegs or barrels that could be rolled to a wall or gate and ignited to breach. Maybe even dig out a mineshaft below the castle and have another gunpowder plot
     
  9. Roebuck17

    Roebuck17 Trainee Engineer

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    30
    I think that gunpowder should be in the form of kegs or barrels. You could then roll one to a gate or wall and ignite to breach. Or you could have a gunpowder plot under your neighbours castle

    Sorry didn't realise previous post had worked
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015
  10. Merandix

    Merandix Junior Engineer

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    520
    @muffins
    They weren't building 'these bad boys'... they ORDERED exactly ONE in 1449... they used it for the first time in 1489. And they only used it a handful of times during the span of over a hundred years. The thing was dangerous, unwieldy... and slinging a 60 kg stone a mile away wasn't even THAT impressive. Some trebuchets did that with entire horses &lt;.&lt; (though likely slightly less far due to the unfavourable properties of horses for ammunition in the department of aerodynamics :woot:).

    edit: though I'll readily admit that there were multiple instances of these TYPES of huge guns. Much smaller bombards were far more common actually. Those didn't do all that much damage, but they helped, and could play decisive roles occasionally!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015
  11. Chrono13

    Chrono13 Apprentice Engineer

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    105
    Umm.... I love me a good trebuchet... but you are GROSSLY overstating their range. Only recently, with modern technology and carben fibre arms have they recently broken the WORLD RECORD range of over a mile.
    Average mass of the projectiles was around 50–100 kg, with a range of 300 meters. On the high end a REALLY good one could hurl a stone upwards of 1,000kg.

    Trebuchets do NOT have the range of a mile.
     
  12. X__INFINITY__X

    X__INFINITY__X Apprentice Engineer

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    177
    I will have a trebuchet launching a platform that has a cannon on it, with a guy to fire the cannon, then have the guy jump off with bombs strapped to his sides and blow up a castle. :D
     
  13. Merandix

    Merandix Junior Engineer

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    520
    I know... I know I shouldn't have used the expression 'as wasn't that impressive' when I wrote it, especially not with 'a mile' directly afterwards.

    Yes, it was impressive, and yes, I should have more clearly stated that no, trebuchets do NOT lug stones over a mile. I just wanted to downplay the use of cannons and have made a silly mistake doing so in wording my post.

    You are absolutely right. And that last post is worded so stupidly that I myself am awarded a stupid award because of it :D

    Bottom line: your average bombard didn't greatly differ in range or projectile weight from your average trebuchet. They both lobbed chunks of stone far enough for a siege. But the bombard did so using very valuable resources, while the trebuchet did NOT do that (though it did use pretty high quality wood to build).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015
  14. Chrono13

    Chrono13 Apprentice Engineer

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    105
    Badges of humility are good for you, and it's commendable that you acknowledge it. &lt;3

    But you did make a good point earlier, these super guns where used very rarely, the reason being as I stated earlier, they are a logistical nightmare. However they do/did exist and should at some point be brought into the game I feel. That being said it is ultimately up to the Devs if they want to implement them. I think the on/off switch for gunpowder is a good avenue when creating a game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015
  15. muffins

    muffins Trainee Engineer

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    80
    @Merandix They've been using cannon since the 13th century in Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannon

    ... plus I dare say that a bombard firing (for example) a 20kg projectile at ballistic speeds would do more damage to walls than a big stick throwing a 20kg rock at a wall at essentially free-fall speeds.

    Plus they go "boom!" which is super-cool so all the cool kings probably had one.

    :cool:
     
  16. Chrono13

    Chrono13 Apprentice Engineer

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    105
    Boom is good.

    But the stone is hardly moving at free fall speed. In the same way a bullet fired into the air does not fall at terminal velocity because it is on a ballistic trajectory. You have to consider the conservation of energy.

    But yes, it's not all range ans size, quite the contrary, a good engineer knows that the true lethality of a cannon is in Velocity baby! (some restrictions may apply see store for details)
     
  17. shaufenhund

    shaufenhund Trainee Engineer

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    33
    Cannons were in frequent use in the late middle ages, though they often exploded and didn't work well. I think Keen should include them if it is feasible to do with the game's mechanics. Cannons could be a super late tech you have to work up to and would present an intricate engineering challenge that seems very much in harmony with the game's focus on engineering.
     
  18. BB.JoeNado

    BB.JoeNado Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    70
    Historically gunpowder was basically what ended medieval warfare. (probably didn't just make that all up) So definitely gunpowder and cannons should be difficult to get.
     
  19. calxllum

    calxllum Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    131
    Although cannons do go boom. And boom is entertaining, I don't think they would be a great addition to the game. Because you wouldn't be engineering your own cannon design, you'd be building just what existed in the past because that's the only thing that really works. Meaning someone could spend hours working on their own self-engineered super trebuchet. But you can just build a cannon for a bit more metal and have something better.
     
  20. FishBrains

    FishBrains Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    131
    Players shouldn't really be given arbitrary limitations, if we have black powder and we have metal we should be able to make a cannon of any design we want. The real limiter should be in the resources. For example if we take that mega cannon muffins linked as a base point it weights roughly 7.5 tons, now if we were to take that metal and make suits of armor which weight about 35-50 lbs. In this example lets use 50 lbs so 7500/50=150 which means you would need enough metal to make 150 full suits of armor in order to make a cannon of that size. Even at 1/10th that size that is still a whole lot of metal to just find laying around.


    Lets assume you just so happen to have murdered a kingdom and have an army's worth of metal laying around so you decide to make yourself a cannon.

    Step 1, Design: Now you get to choose how big a bore, how long should it be does it load from the front or the back(if they had those back then) can you make steel or is it just iron. Its not a huge problem to just copy what someone else has and hope it works so lets move on.


    Step 2, Ammo: You now have to carefully make each round so it's small enough to fit in the cannon and big enough to fire properly. I don't know how exactly keen would go about doing this but I imagine it's going to be tedious or at least take some time.

    Step 3, Black Powder: Lets imagine you already have a bunch of materials and have made yourself a whole store room full of black powder, otherwise precede to take another long time to set that up, get your ratios right and not blow yourself up the whole time.

    Step 4, Testing!: Now if your enough of an engineer to actually have designed your own cannon I'm guessing keen isn't going to be nice enough to add a button that says "put just enough black powder in here" so you have to figure out exactly how much to put in so it works and doesn't blow itself to bits. You have a few options either gamble and put what you think it the right amount and hope your right or slowly work your way up using slightly more powder every time.

    Meanwhile your enemy has just chopped down your forest and build them self a repeating trebuchet that is about to unleash a storm of rocks and logs and maybe animals on your castle

    So if your lucky enough to have a working cannon and your enemies have yet to kill you with the perfect measuring cup/bucket to not blow your cannon up you can use it right up until it gives from the pressure of being fired to many times, hit by a rock, wrong sized ammo anything really. After which you can rejoice as you melt it down and build it again.




    I have no idea how much of that would really be accurate, it all really depends how keen implements a bunch of features but its my two cents as to why cannon are not the be all end all.
     
  21. Evito

    Evito Apprentice Engineer

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    163
    All we really need is metal in a form placeable in similar manner to the small wooden parts as in a trebuchet, every part of making a cannon should be manual no ready made part you just spawn when you have resources.

    And as many others have stated, if the scope is 500-1500's then yes we need to have black powder but it should be realistically hard to make, at that time and age it took a Lot of man hours to get all the requisite things
    correct to actually get a workable cannon to the right place, loaded and actually fire instead of blowing in your face. Make the economics the same as they were back then and 95% of the time people will opt for the
    traditional siege weapon due to ease of use, trajectory and cost. counterweight trebuche wins the average cannon of that age in all practical parts of considerations for warfare, cost / weight / manhours / resources / safety and transportation while providing very little real advantages, it was a niche weapon in that age. Not quite as rare as people make it out to be but even an army that had several they were still the minority compared to the number of total siege engines
    used in a given siege.

    They're scary flashy things that go boom Boom! that can really mess up someones day if you get a bombard up close to someones wall but thats about it really.


    What i REALLY want to see is ability to burn pigs fat under the enemys castle to bring down the armature and cornerstones so the enemys keep comes rumbling down on the owners head!!!!
     
  22. calxllum

    calxllum Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    131
    What is one of the big things people want to do in medieval engineers? Build castles.
    What made medieval castles obsolete? Cannons.
    They couldn't be added realistically without them being ridiculously imbalanced.

    It would be like adding nuclear missiles to ARMA, sure it's fun to watch maybe to use as a mod. But when it's part of the game it couldn't stay realistic and balanced at the same time.

    Also it's possible that bricks won't be added to the game as it's trying to keep a medieval feel. But star forts(Forts designed in a specific way to counter cannons, engineered in mid 15th century.) were built out of brick, also technically outside of our time frame.
     
  23. paswert

    paswert Junior Engineer

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    756
    Earlier cannons AKA the ones in our timeframe would be using stone ammunition, not iron, which would usually shatter upon contact with walls. Also you're complaining about the power of cannons when a trebuchet can knock massive holes into castles according to the trailer, so saying that cannons would be OP is a bit off when trebuchets are already doing far more damage than their historic counterparts.

    Also cannons can be used in defense and we would be able to build a star fort in this game.
     
  24. BB.JoeNado

    BB.JoeNado Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    70
    Cant we just all agree that gunpowder will be one of the best parts of creative. But as far as survival goes i think it will still be great. Also to all those people saying it will break the game SO WHAT IT EXPLODES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
     
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