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Workshop Top Rated Cheat? or what?

Discussion in 'General' started by Spets, Mar 23, 2015.

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  1. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    so, I was about to take a look at the workshop Top Rated All Time submissions and expecting some incredible awesome crazy beautiful creations, but no, the most rated is just a generic ship, nothing special, but with thousands of votes. like WTF is going on here? I mean, they are not bad, but, they are not the best I saw in the workshop. I wish we can have a button to delete or hide those :mad:
     
  2. Tyriosh

    Tyriosh Apprentice Engineer

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    478
    Collections + "Do you want to see these creations in the exploration updates?" It seems that ratings are far more important than actual clicks and downloads. ;)
     
  3. Howitz

    Howitz Junior Engineer

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    Thats just because I have'nt seriously started building ships yet spets :-D lol
     
  4. Xocliw

    Xocliw Public Relations Staff

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    2,615
    I feel you Spets, this issue really grinds my gears too... :nono:
     
  5. Captaindan

    Captaindan Apprentice Engineer

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    172
    Which kind of generic ship you mean? When I look for top rated Ships their are nothing bad on the first side. I wish they would add a searchfilter for Ships with Mods and without mod's. Personaly I'm more interested in Ships/Blueprints withoud mods. Some people build Ships for a complete Faction thats amazing! This could be added later for NPC Faction.
     
  6. piddlefoot

    piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    1,182
    The whole rating system is up the shat.
     
  7. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    this is the kind of Top Rated stuff I want to see
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=290698168

    this is the crap I get
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=368713555

    yeah I said crap. I dont care about what you think JD Horx, but that is a freaking box whit thrusters, why th f*ck is rated first? God! atrhrhhhggg :mad:
     
  8. Jikanta

    Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Betting a lot more low end pc's can handle the Bumblebee better than the Valhalla.
     
  9. Arcturus

    Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    View this specific post (which includes a relevant quote, source thread unknown): https://forums.keenswh.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1286402052&postcount=39
    "How do I get famous/many downloads on Steam Workshop?"

    This exploit may also influnce KSH's choice of exploration ships to include with the game.
     
  10. galacticon

    galacticon Apprentice Engineer

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    440
    How did JD Horx get all his crap to the top. Doesnt make sense...
     
  11. Neverathome

    Neverathome Apprentice Engineer

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    109
    Maybe with an account creator, let the program run for 15 min. bam 2000 likes....
     
  12. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    Yeah... I noticed this also.. I checked the other day while looking for fighter designs and looked at top rated and it was just... mostly stuff by JD.Horx and Dibble..

    JD.Horx has some nice things.. and Dibble has some nice things.. I just don't know why they are top rated.. as Spets points out, there are much more amazing things on the workshop.
     
  13. Howitz

    Howitz Junior Engineer

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    591
    For this one i must come to JD horx defense. Lol jd horx crap is actually very good, might not be the ''most complicated single item design'' ever ( which were former workshop top items) but all of his ships are well made, survival compatible , efficient and serve a precise purpose, the only reason why it came at top of workshop is because of how workshop organize stuff, as he made a whole collection and each piece of collection gain ratings, the whole collection goes up. I dont want to be impolite but next time think twice before saying other people work is crap on the forums, even more if it obviously is not crap.

    Also I dont really care about the ''issue'' I must say sometime I prefer to start from the last pages pf the workshop :-D I just like to see work people do in general no matter the rating, and I often find rare pearls there as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  14. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,785
    One of my ships was selected and is now a part of the game... I am not popular, I have like 4 followers on steam and I'm pretty sure no one has rated any of my ships.
     
  15. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    I have to agree with Howitz/Zeratul here; both JD Horx and Dibble's stuff may be basic, but it's very well-designed basic stuff ... and saying something is "basic" isn't an insult to me. Their ships look really good, they're not heavily reliant on mods (which is very appealing to a lot of people, including myself), and they work. I tried loading the Valhalla up, and gave up because it lagged my computer out. It looks fantastic, but it's not terribly practical. The stuff JD Horx and Dibble make is stuff I can actually see myself using in Manual.

    The collection thing is a bit annoying, but on the other hand, it's not an unreasonable system; if you like one thing an author made, you'll probably like another thing they made. The lesson I'm getting from this is "dang, I need to start putting my stuff in collections."
     
  16. Volfram

    Volfram Senior Engineer

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    1,564
    That is understandable, and I didn't really care initially

    However the top 12 ships on the workshop are from Horx's fleet, followed by Darth Biomech's thrusters, the Stargate mod, yet another Horxcraft, then 11 ships by Dibble, another by Horx, a third ship from someone else, and then it's Dibble all the way down.

    The nature of something with as large a userbase as the Workshop means that it is statistically improbable for a single individual to get more than a couple of items in the top 10 "best," but Horx has all of them. That should raise flags.

    Honestly, I'd have expected Dibble's stuff to generally outrank Horx's stuff. Assuming they're equally "Survival"-viable, Dibble's is generally easier on the eyes and has a more uniform appearance.

    Reading the "How to get popular" thread seems to suggest that the best way to get your stuff highly-ranked is to put out a pack of mediocre ships. That pack will then get upvotes, and every last one of your mediocre ships will be catapulted to the top of the rankings, past all singular ships which may individually be "better" than any single ship in your Bland-Pack.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  17. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Question: how exactly do collections work? Because if the way it's working is one item in a collection getting liked = all items in a collection getting liked, then that does indeed need to be fixed.
     
  18. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,785
  19. Howitz

    Howitz Junior Engineer

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    591
    If anyone is ''cheating'' by running programs or wathever to get his stuff on top or workshop as some of you suggested, all I'd say to him is think about what you do lol... there is no logic in forcing your items in top, it doesnt bring you anything and break a nice sharing tool for thousands of players of a cool game that you like too... so just stop and let the workshop work fairly. But again, I doubt cheating is the cause of the issue, its probably just the collection thing that should be fixed somehow.
     
  20. Volfram

    Volfram Senior Engineer

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    1,564
    Honestly? Couldn't tell you. I didn't bother trying to make ships for adding to Survival, partly because I didn't think I could come up with a fleet, partly because most of my ships really only make sense to me.

    My best guess as to what's going on is that a collection of ships can be rated as a collection, but the ratings it gets are added to each individual ship, instead of to the collection as a set. The obvious solution, I think, is to treat a collection as a single entity and segregate those ratings from the ships themselves. This would yield Horx's fleet being probably the top rated workshop item, but it would take up only one slot instead of half the front page.

    I also don't know what end of the system the mechanic is handled. I suspect it's Valve.
     
  21. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    anyhow, I didnt mean to be mean, but, I was a little angry... wanted to see awesome stuff, to only see generic and basic stuff. I just have to pass the pages very quickly until I see something...
     
  22. Tajin

    Tajin Apprentice Engineer

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    270
    Valhalla is certainly nice but not the best. It doesn't automatically deserve a good rating just because its big and impressive. I think really well designed small ships have just the same right to come out on top.

    In fact I personally tend to prefer the more realisic ship-design that are designed to fulfill a specific role instead of making a badass gigant battleship with all sorts of funny deco-elements that serve no real purpose.
    That really comes down to personal preference though... so it doesn't add much to the topic



    However, the whole rating system has its flaws. Some of which can not be avoided.

    Even without any manipulation, there are several factors at play.: One beeing that if you upload several good ships, you'll usually get more ratings on each of them than if you uploaded just one. Simply because people wo see one of those ships might check out your other creations and like them too which practically makes for a bigger "fishing net" to catch attention.

    Another big factor is that once you make it to the front page, its easier to stay there since many people don't even bother looking at the following pages. Hence, the gap gets bigger and bigger. So staying on page 2 probably means more than beeing on page 1.






    What I tend to do when I look at the top-rates contributions is that I usually skip the first few pages with all the "overrated" ships and start from there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  23. Sarekh

    Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,202
    I take pride in building ugly bricks that are sturdy and make some sense in the context of my playstyle - If they would end up top-rated then I would seriously be questioning the sanity of the folks out there - there are ingenious contraptions, systems, worlds and ships on the workshop that do deserve loads of attention - but do not get it thanks to those upload-spams.
    Appearantly the exploration inclusion is not what they get from that (as KissSh0t pointed out with his creation) - So I too wish for a better upvoting system in order to see those wonderful designs I admire - but this could be difficult as part of the problem seems to be the steam workshop infrastructure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  24. Tristavius

    Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    1,368
    For me there has always been multiple categories of ships which are totally different to each other.

    At a minimum, there are four...

    Survival - Designed to be a usable in-game asset. Usually simple and only with necessities for game play. Doesn't necessarily mean they're ugly or badly designed though!
    Creative - Ships designed for aesthetics or RP purposes. This is a really, really wide category which needs further differentiation really*. May or may not be gameplay usable.
    Replica - Copies of ships from movies, TV, games etc.
    Experimental - All the weird and wonderful stuff - homing torpedoes, gravity cannons, floating doors, elevators; you name it.

    Personally I'm not interested in Survival work and it does annoy me when they're clogging up the workshop due to the collection-voting system. I'm also not very interested in replicas - just boring for me personally. I'd love it if there was a way to separate out the final two categories.

    The other problem in the workshop is legacy work from times when we had greater numbers. Most of the front page for all time rated ships is taken up with work that at the time of release was groundbreaking and awesome, but by todays standards may well be dated and nothing special. Some of the numbers they achieved are unbeatable with today's player base even if every currently active workshop user voted.

    Due to this I often use the Top Rated function set to a year or six months for my own browsing.


    * At a very minimum I see creative as further sub-divided between attempts at real-world realism (or roleplay orientated) ships such as my own Tristavian Shipyards, and pure aesthetic design such as the aforementioned Valhalla.
     
  25. Tristavius

    Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    1,368
    For anyone that hasn't release a collection; authors are presented with three choices for the type of collection...

    1) Rarely used in Space Engineers, it's possible to create a mutually exclusive collection for things which should not be used together.

    2) The most common basic collection on the workshop is simply a list of items which 'work well together' to quote steam. This type of collection gives people a 'Subscribe to All' button.

    3) The type of collection which were currently talking about here. This final type means that any rating given to an item in the collection counts towards every item in the collection. In short, the items have a shared pool of ratings with each other.
     
  26. Tristavius

    Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    1,368
    Also, if you find something slipping through the net that deserves more attention, why not post it in the Show Off Someone Else's Creations thread...!

    https://forums.keenswh.com/post/show-off-someone-elses-creations-7320887?pid=1286404148#post1286404148
     
  27. Killacyte

    Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    The idea behind that last type of collection (all ratings add to all items) is just BAD. It doesn't make any actual sense to me.
     
  28. Tyriosh

    Tyriosh Apprentice Engineer

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    478
    Had this some time ago too, as I'm unable to create collections, I asked someone else to make one for my ships, after let's say about half a day suddenly really really old ships from me appeared on the second(few one the first)page. A bit weird and probaby not what the guy intended who made the workshop.
     
  29. Brenner

    Brenner Junior Engineer

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    609
    Wait a second ..

    So I just have to create a type 3 collection, name it "Brenners stuff", put every workshop item I ever made into it, and all of the sudden all my ratings go up?

    And its not even some kind of average rating, which would be abusable enough - its additive, so popular stuff gets even more popular by other popular stuff in my collection?
    If so, that is madness.


    And if I create 2 or more lists, will that count even more? If so, this would be total and utter madness.

    Definitely a bug.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  30. Tristavius

    Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    1,368
    Unsure as to what happens with historic stuff. Looking at some of the examples for this, there are often a few votes difference between the ships in the collections (though many are extremely similar). It's possible historic does not count or there's some other way they can be effected.
     
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