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I don't want this game to be ruined.

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Sumyjkl, Jan 1, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Sumyjkl

    Sumyjkl Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    16
    Not sure Pretty damn sure about everyone else, but I now thoroughly believe SE is on the same path as would Skyrim if it was crossed with Minecraft. A complete and utter farce full of "hey this'd be funny!" features, buggy to an unplayable degree, saved only by excessive modding by a disappointed community.
    I don't want this. Neither does anyone else.

    Who can actually say that cybernetic dogs fit into the Space Engineers universe? Who can justify a complete failure to fix any engineering part of the game, when that is the whole game's premise? Pistons and rotors which are one of the few movable parts in the game have been broken since their addition. Multiplayer doesn't work, no matter how you sugar-coat it, and at present the only engineering in the entire game is to do with ship decoration.

    The fact that additions generally stay forever in open development is not an excuse not to remove cyberhounds. They don't fit. They don't make sense. No-one wants them.
    I can almost guarantee the line of dialogue regarding their addition was something like this:
    "So we want to add a threat to Earthlike. It's a little boring."
    "Wolves?"
    "No, then people would just climb up on stuff or build something and they'd be safe." (Ahem, like a certain reality we know of. Seriously, they'd be dangerous enough.)​
    "And I guess making them bite through stuff is a bit weird right?"
    "Yeah."
    "What if they were robotic. Then they could have a failsafe explosive."
    "Screw it. It'll have to do."
    /rant

    Here's what I would suggest to KSH.
    • Get your priorities sorted out. What is the game meant to be?
    • Write down what the scope of the game is.
    • Remove features that don't fit in the scope. For example, remove cyberhounds and make spiders more believable.
    • Fix things that fit in that scope. Rotors and pistons dammit.
    • Add more things that fit in that scope. You know, like drone faction AI, or actual animals.
    • Explain to people that it's an alpha, and **** happens.
    • Anyone who complains about it is a complete moron.
    Really hoping this doesn't turn into yet another "don't buy games in early access" story. I think a lot of us have had enough of those.
    Thank you for taking the time to read this. Happy-disappointed-new-year everyone. Expect magic in Medieval Engineers any day now. Ironic trolls, anyone..? That would be bloody hilarious.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Dr. Krunch

    Dr. Krunch Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    182
    I'm going to assume this was something put out quickly because New Year's was coming up and nobody wanted to sit around at work. But yeah, I don't see where cyberhounds fit into the game at all. Hopefully they'll be removed / made toggleable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Ghostickles

    Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    2,077
    There will be a toggle, but for the sake of 2077 lets keep the uber sci-fi well out millions of meters from the Earth-like.
    I would not mind planet Alien being hilarious and deadly, make 'zones' for different lifeforms, whatever, its fun.
    TBH I am enjoying the occasional dog attack now that explosions are disabled (thank you community modders!) it keeps me alert and two interior turrets is enough for the task. One of the hounds dropped some magnesium, lucky me I guess, so give it a go first, they aren't as bad as meteors and they have biscuits in their pockets.
    So yeah, please banish the sci-fi and give us more natural exploding deer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. The MoSS 2

    The MoSS 2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    159
    It's a sandbox game. Its scope is everything player wants to do with it. Best thing KeenSWH can do is maintain player's freedom and don't make any obstacles. I don't think this game can success as RPG (forced progression), first person shooter or story based action. This is why want option to turn off tiered tools, lower jetpack time or completely disable any block to allow more interesting and themed game (or server) setup.
     
  5. Sad_Brother

    Sad_Brother Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    198
    Is this game called "Fun sandbox"? No. It's "Space Engineers". So I suppose it should be space themed and about engineering. It should be fun enough to play of course.
    Engineering in space probably should relay on physics. Not Einstein ofc, but Newton definitely. And what is here?
    1. Static objects in space? Bug? Definitely. Hard to fix? Probably. But should be fixed. It seems static "spations grid" was in developer's mind from the start. But it is still bad design.
    2. Sun rotates around static planets and asteroids. Where is physics? Lost for the sake of arcade. This desorganize engineering mind.
    3. Speed limit. Engine limitation of course. But this only means engine is bad for this task. "Speed dampening" ... in relation to what? To static diamonds on the solid sky?

    To be fair I like constructive part of this game. But it's arcade side ruin it in my opinion. I can alow Jump Drive as removing boring aspect, but Gravity Generators in this game are bad. They should not differentiate between things, blocks, players etc. And should apply reaction force. Else you would get stupid gravity drive. It is too arcadish to be engineering here. Please keep closer to reality.

    And Firefly are really nice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Nemesismax

    Nemesismax Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    89
    I'm going to be blunt here. I've never seen any company trying to sabotage their own game to this extend.

    I've waited my whole life to be able to play a game like this. But now, it's going way off course. I still don't know the reason for adding these cyber NPC's at all... What was the point of it? And these things are mechanical. Where do they get their power from? If it's internal battery, how are they keeping themselves charged? Why are they in that planet?

    Anyway. I'm still expecting KEEN to actively participate in this suggestion forums. Sure there are some unreasonable requests. But at least there are some diamond in the rough suggestions here which are waiting to be discovered. KEEN, please just don't make any changes before asking the community if you have no idea about what to add next... It just worsen my disappointment. I had high hopes for this game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  7. The MoSS 2

    The MoSS 2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    159
    Cyberdogs, drones and cargo ships won't destroy the game as long as turn off button works. If it can be turned on and off, it won't effect your gameplay at all. Forcing others not having cargo ships is as rude as forcing you to have them if you like it or not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. HunterX

    HunterX Apprentice Engineer

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    156
    You obviously haven't played with cyberhounds
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. YtramX

    YtramX Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    238
    First of all, KSH would love to have as much success as Minecraft and/or Skyrim. Secondly, I agree that the cyberhounds were a mistake and poorly thought out, but missteps are going to happen during alpha testing. The most important thing is to provide constructive feedback, and not vitriol. It's also important for fanboys not to interpret all negative feedback as vitriol and get in a defensive tizzy.
     
  10. Ulfsark

    Ulfsark Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,057
    You'd be very hard to find any fanboys defending this update, trust me :(
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Maegil

    Maegil Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,633
    All these problems (and several others) could be solved by relative reference frames. If only they separated stuff into their own chunks of universe, you'd be able to spin them around the main grid at will, at any speed necessary. Ground vehicles would be bound to the planet itself, and thus liable to break up if they tried to speed up like racing cars which is perfectly reasonable, but ships would be able to zip in the sky at supersonic speeds.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Shabazza

    Shabazza Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    689
    I like the fireflies. Does that count? ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. The MoSS 2

    The MoSS 2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    159
    Yes I have. Turn off button doesn't work yet and they are instantly exploding my base as soon as I log in. New game nechanics needs this trial of fire, but most bases were not ready for it. I'd like to give cyberhounds a fair chance, but I don't want to start a new game. But only mistake I see is rushing into cyberhounds release before turn off button is working. Or at least a warning week before hte patch, something like "we are testing new and maybe game ruining enemies next week. Get ready to test them". Some rushed pathces and minor mishaps are understandable, especially for patches released on 24th and 31st of December.

    I think few days of panicked testing is not enough to say cyberhounds are just bad and won't work.
     
  14. Cronos988

    Cronos988 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    545
    People always say that, but when is the last time something was actually, properly fixed and/or completed?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. BobbyHill

    BobbyHill Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    216
    i couldn't possibly care any less about the cyber dogs. i will always turn them off and never think about them again. at this point all i want is for rotors/pistons to work, multiplayer to work, cargo containers to get a same "drain all" and filter options as the conveyor sorter block, and some ability for assemblers and refineries to automatically throw out what ever ingots/ore they may be holding onto.
     
  16. SenorZorros

    SenorZorros Master Engineer

    Messages:
    7,063
    I wouldn't mind a bit of realism either....
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Sonylization

    Sonylization Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    23
    I hope people still realise that this game is in heavy development? Why cant people just take a nice update for what it is, a fun new thing. Yes, id love to see a finished game within the next week with Star citicen like graphics, great optimisation, unlimited physics core support and a bug free world. But that wont happen right now at least. It takes a ton of time and work to get the core support working for example and they have greatly increased the performance of the game compared to a year ago.

    Sure, instant blowing up wasnt the brightest idea, but hey, They try to make the game fun and exiting too.

    Do you really think that all the developed updates are done in one single week?
     
  18. SenorZorros

    SenorZorros Master Engineer

    Messages:
    7,063
    the problem is mostly that it looks like the dev team has no plan and simply inserts things that look cool. in the meantime the promise of near-realism is withering away. the game is getting something akin to the Chris Carter effect where people wonder if the game will ever getting a coherent universe instead of what looks like a patchwork of ideas.
     
  19. Ghostickles

    Ghostickles Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,077
    Going to agree not only should areas of the game respect the original realism on which the game was conceived, but also extend the suggestion that there should definitely be more configuration options for NPC/Sci-Fi additions as the game progresses in the future; this so each player can maintain their universe's recipe and not ruin the pie, as well allow others to fill the pie as they like.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    While I agree in principle, I can't imagine how this will be possible without creating an unholy mess (as it's starting to become even now). IMO it's better if Keen decides on a proper, single direction, whichever that may be, keep to it, and leave all deviations from this to modding - and make sure these deviations are actually possible. That would make it much easier for them to retain control, and they can keep a more consistent code base designed to work towards that single direction.

    For all I know they actually have decided on a direction, but they have had far too many base features unfinished. I imagine that now, or more likely after the new netcode has been stabilized, is when we'll start to see changes and updates to gameplay.

    TL/TR: I'd like to see more focus rather than trying to cater to everyone. Let the modders do the rest as it should be.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Sumyjkl

    Sumyjkl Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    16
    Because added features, no matter how dumb, are never, ever removed.
    Spaceballs. They were a damn April fools joke, and they're still in the game.

    I don't think the updates are developed in a single week.
    Instead, I expect that due to common sense, it would take several weeks, possibly months to deal with an idea before releasing it to make sure it's not absurd.

    Yeah.
    Although, options can, technically be numerous and still not be an unholy mess. It's just that the GUI makes it like that. If the options were part of a server config or advanced menu, and there were presets, it would work just fine. Ever played UT2004, Xonotic or the original Nexuis? They had it all figured out when it came to lots of options.
     
  22. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    They removed the ladders, so it's not without precedence. But that was a long, long time ago.

    I'm not talking about UI, but code, structure and planning :)
     
  23. Sumyjkl

    Sumyjkl Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    16
    Ah, yeah, that I totally agree with. That is, trying to appeal to two or more totally separate concepts of design is never a good idea. It was merely the fact that some options that can be allowed without the focus being confused can be done so without confusing the players' choices about their gameplay.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Dax23333

    Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    Spaceballs have also been nerfed massivly, having many of thier attractive features removed.
     
  25. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    Indeed. The difficulty with that though is: Where to you set the limit? How do you judge such an option? What is "too much"?
     
  26. SenorZorros

    SenorZorros Master Engineer

    Messages:
    7,063
    well... after the ladders they almost promised they would never remove anything again...
     
  27. SaturaxCZ

    SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    You guys meybe didnt get it but:
    1. They study AI behavior = cyber hounds
    2. Fireflies = us similar princip to weather, so rain, storm, fog, atc... can be next.
    Meybe bother to check how new adds work in game.... and what can you do with it or dont critize development of game....
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  28. Sad_Brother

    Sad_Brother Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    198
    Did not see ai in hounds
     
  29. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    The cyber hounds have just a very, very basic behavior. A "here's the position of an enemy, run there" type of thing. Pretty much the same as the Sabiroids, and the pirate drones for that matter, although those at least are somewhat extensible by us. There's barely any AI there to study yet.

    While I don't really think the following is what you mean, @SaturaxCZ, just in case I'll state: this has nothing to do with GoodAI's work, which is a separate company and is studying general AI, not game AI. The brain stuff we've seen is supposed to be addin stuff, modlike, not vanilla. Not that it's really important. They may even change their minds. However general AI is massive overkill for a game.

    The fireflies are simple decals. They have more in common with the damage effects than weather. I don't think it's worth reading more in them than that.

    This is obviously an early adaptation. And I have every confidence they'll fix that. I just wish they'd be moved away from the Earthlike.
     
  30. SaturaxCZ

    SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    Meybe i reading too deep in it like you said, but meybe not and fireflies are one step from weather + testing hounds and sabroids first step for AI. ;)
    Hounds + Sabroids - I see it like step ensure thinks like: models will not faling under map ( specialy on surfface witch can be deformed ), textures on object dont tear apart, dont overburden game + crash, atc.... after you know this work you can start testing AI.
    Fireflies - multiply+replace fireflies with diferent effect like clouds, rain drops, snowflakes, ( hope- light sources ), atc... + direction, speed, other movements, witch fireflies already have = weather. I didnt check it yet, but if its moving particle effect , i expect a lot of player made mods with it. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
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