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Camera feeds to LCD display

Discussion in 'General' started by tyrsis, Dec 14, 2015.

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  1. tyrsis

    tyrsis Junior Engineer

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    Another video showing how it rotates through camera feeds on a single LCD. This is in DX9, a much more complex ship that drops my FPS to 30 (with the feeds off). As you can see with the feed it only eats up 3-4 FPS when turned on.

     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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  2. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    That is pretty amazing. :tu:
     
  3. Krutchen

    Krutchen Apprentice Engineer

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    159
    It would be awesome to have rear view cameras feeding to an LCD display, so I wouldn't be completely blind as to what's in front of me while i'm docking. Lots of situational awareness!
     
  4. Nimrod

    Nimrod Trainee Engineer

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    4
    Can... can you have the camera look at an LCD that is displaying feed from that same camera? I'm highly curious.
     
  5. atcrulesyou

    atcrulesyou Trainee Engineer

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    45
    Yes. here's the video he posted of the feedback loop:
     
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  6. Wizlawz

    Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    ^ THIS

    are you gonna link it here as well or just in the modding section?


    awe man that sux, could you make it available for all but with client side option on / off?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
  7. Sinbad

    Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    If this can stream video from anywhere, doesnt that imply that i could put any video on an lcd panel? Like youtube content or something?
     
  8. Wizlawz

    Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    3,028
    as i understand it, it only streams from the camera.

    whatever the camera sees goes to the display
     
  9. Lt_Duckweed

    Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

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    He has earlier videos of watching youtube and twitch.tv
     
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  10. Wizlawz

    Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    ohh ok, did not know that, i stand corrected
     
  11. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
  12. Sinbad

    Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    new requirement for carriers: cinema room.
     
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  13. tyrsis

    tyrsis Junior Engineer

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    Something that hasn't been released yet. Right now it has the going title of SE Client Extensions. It will be a self updating plugin. It will be a very small initial download, and launching the game is slightly different (requires a command line of -plugin SEClientExtender.dll). After that you're set to go. It will self update as I add / update it, and can be disabled by just removing the command line. I will outline more details when it's closer to release (which is relatively soon). I'm working out the easiest and safest way for install. It's very very simple, and I'd like to keep it that way. There is no other way around it. The only other option is to wait for Keen to eventually whitelist the mile long references I require, which won't happen, heh.
     
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  14. Einharjar

    Einharjar Junior Engineer

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    529
    I'm glad some one has taken the time to do this. I can't wait to see some of the true performance tests though.
    The discussion that Devious and I had on a past suggestion thread lead to some revelations on my end. To me, this seems well enough - what you're accomplishing is what I've seen in the past as well. You can do about the same thing in Blizzard's SC2 editor, although not from scratch like you're having to do. It's just that this process of creating a second render to texture was doable in other games as well and worked fine.
    The only problem is when scenes start to get complicated. Just because it's render to texture, doesn't mean it's still not taxing. The issue being all the extra draw calls. That latest video might be all cool, but it still doesn't show the outside of a large red ship or something, floating about, with another small ship nearby docking or what have you - you know... an actual scene.
    All those object prior to being pasted on a texture are all for real rendered as any other normal scene would be. That's why the test on Planet's is so needed by Devious, and I'd side with that requirement as well.
    Depending on the depth of field, FoV and LOD options used on the 2nd render, a LCD cam viewing the same view you would be taking from a cockpit, descending on a planet would be the same as your PC rendering double of everything. With DX9s API being so slow at only 500 draw calls per second, anyone with DX9 will chug themselves to a halt. With DX11 being in the several thousands - it SHOULD be far smoother. Testing with DX9 and getting it to work well with DX9 is a brilliant move.
    I'm very curious as to how this progresses and cannot wait for the final performance and stability test phases.

    I know if I had my system running, I'd vote to be a test pig. My system is old, with only 6 gigs and RAM and an ol' 465 card for the GPU. If it works well enough to where I can view 1 red ship and 1 blue ship interacting in the same scene without chugging my frames down more than 5 FPS - I'll declare it a miracle mod that Keen should add to the game as vanilla right away. Petition and everything.
     
  15. tyrsis

    tyrsis Junior Engineer

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    862
    That last video I ran is actually a pretty complex ship (it's why I was at 30fps to start). If you look at it, before I set the camera feeds, that is the FPS I'm running with NO feeds. When no LCD has a camera feed it really does absolutely nothing. I make sure that I only ever use the render thread when required to create a texture for an active LCD that someone is within 100m of.

    I don't show the exterior of it, but that really doesn't effect much. My draws in dx11 are less than a typical pass in the game, as I had to go deep into the draw pass to specifically fix LOD issues. And during the fixing process I was able to get rid of some calls that weren't required (so it's actually FASTER than a single frame that gets drawn to your screen) and in dx9 it's approximately the same (due to there being no LOD issues, I could basically mimic the same draw they were doing as there was nothing that went horribly wrong when I did it. The only difference being is it goes to a texture).

    I am providing a way to modify the amount of processing power that goes into it. I default it to at most 15% of the renderer, but you can raise or lower that from the game options in the main menu. It will be a slider that lets you set from 0 - 50% of the renderer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  16. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Hate to tell you that you're wrong Devious.

    BUT YOU'RE WRONG. :)

    People will use the camera feed to handle whatever application it is suitable for. It only seems to be about 5-10fps and there is a lag between what the camera "sees" and its output.

    It's definitely not suitable for any piloting, but as far as a security camera type feed.

    WANT.

    There is always the immersion factor. Being able to track multiple cameras at a glance from a flight seat then directly view a camera of interest would be quite useful.

    Here's an example: you're playing multiplayer and a teammate enters the hangar. You see this and don't accidentally blow him out of the airlock or slam the door shut on his ship.

    A motion detector is tripped and it turns on the lcd associated with that area. That's useful.

    Depending on the resolution, it might work on text panels. Small ship text panels could be useful as a low res rear view kind of set up. Certainly what's going on will lag, but if you can tell that something is back there, you may be able to react in time.

    And it's just f'ing cool because it pushes the boundaries.

    The best way to fail is to not do something at all. I'd love to see where this goes and have people use it and give feedback.
     
  17. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    You being reasonable doesn't make me wrong. Given how long you've been on these forums you should know better. People would complain if the lighting color was a value off.
     
  18. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964

    People will always complain about the most insignificant things. That's no reason to stop development of a feature. Tyrsis is testing this feature a lot deeper than Keen tests any of its new feature releases. I think it'll be okay if we let Tyrsis's dog out of the cage. It can't be worse than when Keen did.
     
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  19. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    Performance is by no means insignificant for people though, given all performance complaints there are already. However, I haven't once suggested stopping the development of this feature. I would never do that. Even as a mod Tyrsis' work is great.

    That's just rude. My personal experience as a developer tells me there's no evidence this is true, bugs or no. This attitude gives the impression of having no idea how easy it is for bugs to slip through the most professional tester. Could they do better? Probably. There's always room for improvement But people's claim that there's little to no testing is just plain ridiculous.

    That's not our decision. All I am doing is warn what might be the case, I don't speak for Keen. I'm not opposing the addition of this feature to vanilla, if it's proven good enough - which it in theory seems to be, albeit I still want to see a bigger scene, on planets. Tyrsis has said this will be done, I'm content with that. This is already performing way above what I would have expected, not having programmed with DirectX for a decade or more. However even with that, there may be issues none of us know anything about, Tyrsis included, whether it seems to work well or not. As I always say in these things, we don't have a the whole picture.
     
  20. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    Ofc it is easy for bugs to slip through the most professional tester, no questions about it. But players find bugs, report them on forums and Keen should fix them, i think they are not aware of what means if MP is not playable - players will leave for sure - sooner or later.
    I dont have problems playing singleplayer, but some people do.
     
  21. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    They are perfectly aware, they're not stupid. But sometimes techical restraints simply has the rule, there's simply no way around it no matter how much anyone wants. This is what they are currently working on. Don't believe for a second this is an easy job, or solved quickly. There's a very good technical reason this was deferred until now. See all the other threads about this issue for the answer to that one, plus the dev post here. Multiplayer shouldn't have been implemented 'till now at all. That was the big mistake, technically speaking. Player-count speaking, not quite such a mistake, but technically, oh yes.
     
  22. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    I didn't say they're stupid, but imo they should fix the bugs first, before giving out new features ( which bring more bugs probably ).
     
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  23. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    This is a very bad idea. Fixing bugs before adding new features is a waste of time and money, because any new feature has a great chance of changing the environment so that all that work is wasted. It is more or less inevitable. This is a way of working that has been determined by thousands of developers over decades. This is well known by experienced programmers.

    Since this opinion of yours has been discussed and debunked so many times other places I will not continue derailing Tyrsis' thread about this.
     
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  24. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    22
    I see you have no clue about quality management :((, but ok, I won't argue with people like you.

    Go Tyrsis! :)
     
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  25. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    Then I guess you are smarter than the thousands of developers I spoke about then. Good for you.

    I will defend my profession with my every breath. I love my job.
     
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  26. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    I've seen what quality means and i said i won't argue with you about it.

    I work in a company which produces paper and i've seen what low quality brings = customers leave. It's the same with games. Played Lineage 2 on private servers - poor quality = servers died. Played Crossfire, poor quality = people left.
    Crossfire is actually doing the same way, they're aware that game is bugged, they're aware that many people hack, but they do nothing about it, they keep adding new VIP ingame stuff ( which cost real money for players to buy ) - they only care about money, but they will lose players, sooner or later. ( not saying that Keen just cares about money )
     
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  27. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    I'm sorry. I seem to be in a bit of a mood today. I edited this post because I just realized what I was doing.

    I actually understand why laymen have your opinion. They don't understand the intricacies and complexities of software development. It really can't be compared to many other factory settings. I think we should just agree to disagree at this point, it won't really change anything anyway.

    Again, I apologize for an appaling attitude.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
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  28. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    I didn't say anything about software develpoment, but ok. Someone has to learn to read. I was talking about quality management. I dont know who you are, but I hope you're not in Keen's team - because that would burry them.
     
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  29. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    Please see my private message to you. This is about quality management, but that does not excuse my behavior.
     
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  30. iDare

    iDare Trainee Engineer

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    22
    Nevermind, go Tyrsis - good luck with the mod! :)
     
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