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Force Field-Type Shields

Discussion in 'General' started by Graewerld, Feb 11, 2017.

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  1. Graewerld

    Graewerld Trainee Engineer

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    I tried doing a topic search but found nothing so here goes:

    Are there any feasible way to recreate "Star Trek" type shield-like barriers? Can coding cause a projectile `bounce-back`?
     
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  2. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    SWEET MERCIFUL CLANG, NOT THIS AGAIN! AAAUU -

    *screaming cuts off as he flings himself out the nearest airlock*

    ~Ahem.~

    In a more serious vein, that question has come up every few months or so on this forum.

    For the last three years.

    The general consensus is that shields would reduce combat to a battle of hitpoints. The first ship whose shields failed would start losing armor, weapons, and systems while the other's shields still held. Battles would go to whoever had the biggest shield pool, instead of being a product of multiple factors.
     
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  3. Graewerld

    Graewerld Trainee Engineer

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    For this I apologize, again only having just started working with this AWESOME program for the last month (better late than never) and I am still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.

    I can understand why the use of said shields could unbalance gameplay. I was just curious if it were possible and I really appreciate your response. :tu:
     
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  4. odizzido

    odizzido Junior Engineer

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    684
    There is a mod for shields. I think shields with a small number of hp in MP are reasonable with SE being in the state it is to reduce damage caused by desync.

    In the final version I am pretty against shields though.
     
  5. Arcturus

    Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    40 search results in one forum alone:
    https://forums.keenswh.com/search/6007258/?q=shields&o=date&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=313735

    In particular this 29 page thread:
    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/shields.7361864/
    Which lasted over a year and went through "the cycle" more than once. There is a paired response to any question or suggestion on this topic.
     
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  6. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    For the love of god, lemarchands box has been opened again :eek::eek::eek::eek:

    It took over year and so many repeats in that one thread to come to a unstable agreement that shields is best kept as a mod. But you just had to release the horror show.

    Pain is pleasure! Pleasure is pain!
     
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  7. doncdxx

    doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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  8. Renegrade

    Renegrade Trainee Engineer

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    Indeed. But what if the shields acted to reduce damage instead of completely negating it? With additional generators giving diminishing returns? That might give rise to some interesting tactical situations as well as design considerations. A ship that absolutely spammed shields in that case would not be the I-win button, as it would have to sacrifice maneuverability / weapons / materials to pack in all those shield units and reactors/batteries etc and would be therefore at a disadvantage against a better-balanced opponent who is more maneuverable and better armed, even if they used less material and had significantly less shields than Mr. I-Win.

    Also, it would allow attacks against the shield generators as a tactical choice. Do you hit their weapons, their reactors, or their shields? Armor design would still matter then too. Where, and how much - something an absolute/bubble shield doesn't allow. There would even be trade-offs there - a light armor design with heavy shielding, or a heavy armor design with light shielding?

    BTW, the energy shields mod has shown that there's some types of damage leakage in the damage event(s) - decals always get through, for instance. It sounds like Keen should tighten up the code around damage events, so that mods such as that would be easier to implement/maintain.
     
  9. Franblast

    Franblast Apprentice Engineer

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    123
    How about shields that are made out of wood? You'd slash some trees with a chainsaw perhaps. Carve your name in the side if you were board. I wood try and burn it for looks. Wrap your Aircraft cabin in your very own canoe. Then have yourself an epic log drive, firing timbers as lumber ammo, careful the splinters! They can be a birch. Carpenter bombs? Its knot the best idea but planks to my imagination i can bark these out, oakay. Always maple a Captains log about every 2-by-4 hours eh.
     
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  10. Zoladen

    Zoladen Apprentice Engineer

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    The puns are strong with this one...
     
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  11. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    When are shields coming to XBox????

    (runs out of room cackling)
     
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  12. Sarekh

    Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,200
    Well, do what everyone else does and pmshield yourself one.

    Go to the centre of your project and install two rotors one both side of a piston that is connected to the ship via timed landing gear.

    The amount of ungodly physics havok that will rip your ship apart soon after is going to prevent anyone from shooting at you because they are busy looking at you in terror.
     
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  13. Timberwolf

    Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    Whenever I visit the community creations subforum, the only factors that seem to matter is how many PMWs you can mount, from how far you can fire them, and if you can evade the return PMWs.
     
  14. Devon_v

    Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    There have been various experiments with energy shields, they have all, as far as I know, been basic "I take damage instead of the ship" systems, nothing as complex as reflecting projectiles.

    Your basic Trekwars deflectors are quite doable and available on the workshop. Personally I'd love to see someone tackle some hard sci-fi shields that require major engineering and tactics to use effectively and have their own drawbacks. The game could use more weapon variety first though to make varied defensive measures meaningful.
     
  15. Forcedminer

    Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    you add sheilds or force fields then people will start asking for more and more.
    *cough* planets.

    then the usual ppl have to shoot them down.

    it would just end up boiling down to who has the more energy on their ship until one runs out of power and becomes helpless prey.
     
  16. Pharap

    Pharap Apprentice Engineer

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    175
    As opposed to it being about whoever has the most weapons, armour and ammo?
     
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  17. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    At least in this scenario both sides take damage.

    And in the slight alteration of a ballistic taking cylon, "this has all been said before. This will all be said again."
     
  19. Franblast

    Franblast Apprentice Engineer

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    123
    "Thou speaketh truths."
     
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  20. captainbladej52

    captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Quite a few others have brought up shields in game, heck I've mentioned it before in other discussions regarding them. I would love to see shields get put into the game but to do so raises alot of questions before it could be done. First, how would you implement them in a way that's balanced. If you're going to add something like shields you need to do so in a way that they're not OP to the point it just boils down to a battle of who has the most hp, ammo, or what have you. If you add something like shields without making sure they're no OP then it would just boil down to whoever could pack the most of them on a ship and that's all you would see. On the flip side you don't want to make them so weak that they're useless either. Next you would ask, how should they function. Would they be simply an extra HP pool, would they crap out after a certain amount of time regardless, a certain amount of hits, etc. Then there's resource cost as well. Point being there's alot that goes into a new game mechanic. Wanting shields isn't a bad thing, but the question becomes, is it practical and needed. I'm not going to complain if they add shields down the road but there's far too many issues yet to be answered with them regarding the game yet to be resolved before they could be a possibility without modding them in. While it would be cool to have them so far I've not really seen anything that made me absolutely want to have them.
     
  21. Franblast

    Franblast Apprentice Engineer

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    123
    Heck, yall bettr close that there door, I'm a gettin a mighty breeze in here!

    GET! you wind! GET!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  22. Pharap

    Pharap Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    175
    Possible solutions:
    • Have some weapons be more powerful against shields and some weapons more powerful against armour (like Elite: Dangerous does). E.g. Thermal/energy weapons do high damage to shields, but negligable damage to armour and projectile weapons do high damage to armour but low/medium damage to shields.
    • Have a 'shield jammer' weapon that is capable of eliminating a shield. Make it slightly expensive to use (power, ammo, components etc).
    • Force shield generators to be outside the shield so they can be targetted by weapons. This would make the early stages of space battles like those typical game boss battles where the boss can only be damaged in certain areas.
    • Make it so that weapons inside a shield do not travel through the shield, they damage it, thus forcing any weapons to be outside the shield and thus making them vulnerable.
    As for practicality, I'd say spending less time having to repair your ship after each dogfight would be pretty damn handy.
    I don't know about other people, but I'd much rather be spending time making new ships and facilities than constantly repairing my existing one.
    (Besides which all of the solutions I've mentioned effectively add a new dimension to battle to make ship battles more interesting than just 'turn turrets on, let them shoot the enemy, pray your ship lasts longer'.)
     
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  23. Renegrade

    Renegrade Trainee Engineer

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    40
    I thought my solution (a few posts above / damage reduction instead of pure absorption) addressed it rather nicely and fit in with the existing concept of armor design meaning something...while cutting down on repair time, and adding an additional aspect to consider when engineering.
     
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  24. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    And this is exactly one of the major issues we have. People ask for a challenge but they hate the idea of their ship being hurt in the process. So we sit around challenge free building up materials and not finding a use for them. Shields only increase the issue. Do you really think an increase in power consumption means anything for sustaining shields or the antishield when you can mine enough uranium to last you years?

    If you want an a more immersive game you must first be willing to test the limits of your ship, not encase it in a little magic safe bubble.
     
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  25. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

    Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    That's more depth than slamming away at each other's shields till someone dies. How you maneuver matters, and the ship's design with regard to that matters.

    I'm not saying the game is perfect. But adding shields isn't going to reduce the emphasis on PMWs in the slightest; quite the reverse, in fact. If you have shields, I'm certainly not going into rocket barrage range until your shields are down.

    What we need is reliable point defense, not shields; so reliable that even if all your enemy has is a single rocket launcher with 4 rockets, it will take out at least one of them. It would also be good if the large grid rocket launcher had a much lower fire rate, and used different rockets than the small grid launcher; Keen's model for rocket launchers has been broken since the day the large ones were added.

    We also need Keen to keep nerfing gatling guns vs large grids, because it's stupidly easy to make gatling arrays that can cut through large grids like a knife.

    Once the basic weapons in the game are balanced, and Keen has added the ones the game still needs, then we can see if shields make sense. But shields certainly won't reduce the emphasis on PMWs. Keen really needs to take their game's physics aspect seriously.

    I don't build PMWs to be cheesy; I build them to demonstrate to Keen how easy it is to cause tons of damage with fewer resources than a fighter. They still aren't paying attention, which is why if a PMW hits, you're in trouble.
     
  26. halipatsui

    halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    We actually have force field shields that we can use to defend ourselves from certain weapon types.
    That being gravity shields versus ore launchers /gravity driven torpedoes.
     
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  27. Timberwolf

    Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Where's the excitement of heavily armed and armored capital ships duking it out, when one or two PMWs fired from 60km away or more can end the fight before it even starts?
     
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  28. Harrekin

    Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    You mean why would you try beat your opponent with engineering in "Space Engineers"...?
     
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  29. PLPM

    PLPM Junior Engineer

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    850
    It would take 10 mins for that PMW to reach the other guy, I don´t think it would have much fuel left... or that the target would still be in place.
    PMWs are only great if they hit, and they tend to be heavy... they can have pretty large drawbacks. The only reason most use them is because it´s not just slapping another block to a conveyor and that being it.

    PMWs may have unlimited range, but they have an effective one you should stick to.
     
  30. Harrekin

    Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Plus if you're already moving they can literally never hit you, even if they had instant 0-100m/s acceleration.
     
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