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Linux love

Discussion in 'General' started by doomwish, Dec 27, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    Hello, Merry Xmass and happy holidays

    All is going well for our beloved game, the thought of launching my game makes me *beep*, but I have to make this question once per year.

    Do we have an ETA on Linux DS? Maybe a client too?

    Kisses to lovers and haters :D
     
  2. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

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    I hate windows, but I dont want to learn how to use linux :p
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Volfram

    Volfram Senior Engineer

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    Space Engineers is written in C#. Nuff said.

    Have you tried Wine or a VM?
     
  4. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    Hello, thanks for the replies.

    When a linux fan is hoping for linux client, he has already played through wine. The thing we're trying to achieve is to actually get a linux client, not workarounds. But anyway, my bigest concern is not the client, it's the server. Wine can play the client one way or another, sooner or later. But we need headless linux server, dev's have said they would give out one, but we never got an ETA or EETA. You know it's not about the answer itself, it's about bumping the threads so they won't forget about it :D

    Have a nice new years eve everyone.

    Next year I'll pop the question again :D
     
  5. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    I'm back after all these years to bump the thread. Linux love? Mostly about headless linux server, coz all i've been doing lately is joining 24/7 servers, playing for like 2-3 weeks and then they just dissapear. If we could have dedicated headless linux servers (which are cheap enough for anyone to offer), we could offer more stable and trustworthy servers.

    Show some love KSH <3, thx :D
     
  6. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    They've never said they would make one, but that they might.

    I gauge the probability of this actually happening from slim to none. Keen has more than enough with the workload they already have: it's simply far too much work for what it's worth. The cost/gain metrics don't add up.

    The fact that there is no linux server has no bearing on servers vanishing. The multiplayer problems do.
     
  7. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    Would or might, it doesn't matter, I'm just bumping the thread to remind the "might" even.

    Excuse me but you are not KSH to answer about the workload, the cost or anything. Please don't rush to conclusions. I'd rather hear it from them.

    Multiplayer problems don't make servers vanish, people who don't actually own HEADLESS dedicated servers make them vanish. Windows crash, people switch off their computers, windows servers are expensive and they're not headless. There's a reason I'm saying "Headless" in all the sentences. How do you think lineage2, minecraft or teamspeak got so high, with windows servers? What is the operating system of this forum and why? That's what I'm trying to say, linux is better for internet and not just because XXXXXX reason, I would give only one reason for this.... "HEADLESS". Just bump this post for a headless dedicated linux server, it's good for multiplayer, it's good for the game. Only then you would truly have "dedicated 24/7 servers".

    If I wouldn't love this game, I wouldn't post something like this and try to convince anyone about anything. Think this before replying to this post, as it's not affecting anything of the gameplay, the design, the graphics, just the multiplayer experience and the multiplayer future of this game.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    But I am a long-time contributor to Space Engineers (the game, not mods) and a professional programmer, so I'm not talking out of my ass. Some of the devs are often to find on the Discord channel, and Rexxar (Keen dev) just talked about this very issue on Xocliw's stream.

    Writing a Linux version would be very expensive for Keen. Prohibitively expensive.
     
  9. Muttly (Muttly's Pirates)

    Muttly (Muttly's Pirates) Trainee Engineer

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    it barely runs in windows lol nevermind keen trying to get it too work cross platform
     
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Okay, guys... I would LOVE a Linux version of the server software since dedicating an entire Windows machine and its overhead to just hosting a game is a bit.. blah. Working on Linux offers a lot more options in serving as well.

    But, yes, as much as you hate the answer... PORTING SE in any form to Linux will be very expensive in budget and in time. Porting SE to Linux doesn't have any return on investment. It's also still in an alpha but mislabeled beta state. Chasing that dragon would add to the expense as well.

    You have to look at it pragmatically. Will running a server on Linux generate more income for Keen? Probably not or at least not at this point.

    I understand that you're disappointed, but don't be so hostile to Malware. He is actually is responsible for fixing a lot of broken shit and advocating for some much needed features (besides programming them).
     
  11. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    Guys I feel that we're running around chasing our tails here. I'm talking about a headless dedicated linux server, this is not as expensive as porting a game in linux. It's just netcode of XYZ, voxels and inventory. If Keen won't focus on that at some point then bye bye multiplayer as it's impossible to maintain a whole windows server for just a multiplayer game. I don't care about the client version of it getting on linux. I'm sorry If I sounded hostile to Malware, I was typing fast and sometimes words in a text don't express my face. I wasn't angry :D

    Still we're not fighting each other here, any post is suggesting, fixing or talking about a game we all love. /hugs
     
  12. Llessur

    Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    I do not understand the issue with a Windows server I mean I have a server built that I run XP on for coworkers to play minecraft on and while using Windows does use more resources it seems to balance that out with being SUPER user friendly so why is it bye bye multiplayer without linux?
     
  13. rexxar

    rexxar Senior Engineer

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    1,532
    Malware is right. We have no plans for Linux support, it simply will require way more time than it's worth.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    No linux support is fine, but no headless linux server either?
     
  15. rexxar

    rexxar Senior Engineer

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    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Physics calculations are handled on the server for starters. The server is basically everything but the graphics and interfaces. So the first priority would be making VRAGE run on the Linux platform. Ain't nobody got time for that.

    If it was just a handful of things to be done, then someone in the community probably would have done it by now.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  17. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    This answer is actually giving me all I needed to know. Thanks. See you next year when I bump this again :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    If they have no plans for Linux support won't the answer just be the same in one year?
     
  19. Renegrade

    Renegrade Trainee Engineer

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    It wouldn't be the first time Keen reversed a previous decision (planets, for instance). Checking back on a yearly basis is probably a good idea.

    Given that C# is built a lot like Java (the CLR is basically the same concept as the JVM), I find the lack of portability....disturbing.

    #repeatingBCPLmistakesfortherestoftime because #theonlythingwelearnfromhistoryisthatwelearnnothingfromhistory *cough*
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    It has nothing to do with C# and everything to do with the libraries in use. C# is perfectly portable.

    Can't really be compared with the planets feature. They said no simply because they had no idea how to solve the performance problems with it. Then research into Medieval Engineers technology resulted in an Eureka, alongside with the decision to move to DirectX11, which made planets possible. Next year, the porting job will be equally as expensive and equally as work intensive, if not even more so.
     
  21. Renegrade

    Renegrade Trainee Engineer

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    So it's calling some sort of native-binary library that's unavailable on other platforms? I'm just talking for the headless server here, of course. Obviously a full-up graphical game is going to need a lot more in the way of local, probably native-binary code (DirectX comes to mind)..but really, a headless server really only needs TCP/UDP and basic file I/O... oh wait, it uses a third party physics engine, doesn't it? Uhh.. Havok or something? Is that the issue?

    I'd really love to have a headless linux server. My old fileserver died (capacitor rot, despite being on a 2007-8 era board), which left me with an i7-920 (w/12 gigs of ram) as a substitute, and it gathers dust most of the time. Would make a great Space Engineers server box, but it's running Debian (TCO for Windows is way too high to begin with, and is doubly so on a headless box).

    You're saying that like they actually DID solve the performance issues ;)

    (I kid here, obviously, but I get the feeling that overall performance of post-planet SpaceEng is worse than pre-planet, despite DX11/new video card etc, at least when planets are involved)
     
  22. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    @Renegrade Yes, they certainly did - because we're talking "that simply isn't gonna work" type of performance problems, not even for the more powerful computers. DX9 simply wasn't up to the task.
     
  23. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Planets has become the go to example for reasons not to accept no as a answer. The argument can be found in virtually every suggestion thread now days.
    But for your one shining example of a item that has made it into the game after repeated requests I can provide a section of the forum that has pages upon pages of ideas that never made it past conceptualization. As just a rough guestimate I would say a good 95% of those ideas will never be in game.
    But trying to ride planets success for this idea gets even worse because we're comparing an item in the game the company spent time on that everyone can enjoy as opposed to asking the company to put time and resources into a platform that less than 5% of all steam users even use. How many of those members play Space engineers is anyone's guess.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    I don't know how more I can stress this. When we are talking about "linux headless server" it has nothing to do with porting anything graphical or a client into another operating system. It doesn't matter if 5% or 50% users use linux, it's not about running the client game, but it has everything to do with running a stable and reliable server, please don't confuse these 2, they are fundamentally different. I for example use linux servers for almost everything for business and services, but my home computer has multi-boot for both linux and windows and I don't mind if KSH doesn't port the client to linux... ever. I do however would like to see a "headless linux server" at some point being created.
    Imagine it like a dos screen and you type:
    #spaceengineersserverrunscript -survival -nopirates -procedural -spacedonkeys -name world (you press enter and then)
    #loading spaceengineersserver... creating world
    #25%
    #50%
    #75%
    #100%
    #spacengineersserver running, have a nice time!
    #

    then you just use a screen command to logout of the server and without even having a graphical user interface you got yourself a headless space engineers server running. Cheaper in cost and hardware, more stable and... oh well I won't get into windows vs linux fight but... yea focus on this:

    TL;DR: Headless linux server === nothing to do with === linux client

    cheers
     
  25. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    You can stress it until your face turns blue but the simple fact remains that such a small portion of population actually uses such a set up that it simply doesn't justify costs for building the platform.
     
  26. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    You're overestimating the simplicity of a headless server. Even on a headless server you still need the absolute majority of the game code, the server runs all the logic, all the physics, everything. The server is the master. We're not comparing server/client. We're talking about porting the current dedicated server, which is already headless. It's still not easily ported, still requires untold hours of work and would cost a lot of money.
     
  27. Phoera

    Phoera Senior Engineer

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    1,713
    currently SteamSDK is mixed mode
    Havok => mixed mode
    VRage.Native is native code.

    mixed mode things not portable at all, will need separating(Havok may be even will require license, if current one is windows only) and rewriting.
    idk about VRage.Native itself, since it have no sources, may be it easily portable, may be not.
    so this is not easy task.

    about porting client, no chances now IMHO, since DirectX MS-only.
    and rewriting renderer is not easy task.
     
  28. LFCavalcanti

    LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    @rexxar the lack of a dedicated server that runs on Linux is really bad.

    For people asking why Windows Server is a problem...

    1 - Even the core install still requires more resources to run than Linux
    2 - Windows needs licensing, so the cost to host a server running on Windows is higher by definition, this is a fact, not open to interpretation.
    3 - Requiring windows to run dedicated servers limits the hosting options

    If that's hard to do or not, maybe you(the team) should have dedicated the time spent on Scenario editors and cutscenes on important things like the dedicated server.

    But I guess that part of the community has more leverage and thus a free pass on moderation and voice on the game's direction.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  29. doomwish

    doomwish Trainee Engineer

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    What setup would that be?
     
  30. DDP-158

    DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Dude forgot what the subject of his own thead is.

    Headless linux servers.
     
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