1. The forum will be closing soon permanently. Please read the announcement here

    Note: User registration has been closed. We do not accept any new accounts.

Some thoughts on a common argument...

Discussion in 'General' started by doncdxx, Jun 30, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. doncdxx

    doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    439
    How many times have you heard this argument?
    "Space Engineers doesn't need planets. It's called Space Engineers, not Planet Engineers."
    Similar arguments are used on everything from getting out of suits, character customization, realistic food systems, etc.
    "Space Engineers doesn't need character customization/advancement. It's called Space Engineers, it's about engineering in space."

    There's a very apparent flaw in their logic.

    It's called Space Engineers not Space Engineering. It's a game about the Engineer himself. Playing the experience of the engineer should include, both deeper survival gameplay (nutrition, hydration) as well as sense of individuality (character customization). Through that, the player's experience with the titular character will be more personal and more immersive for it. The engineer's skills work on planets or space and the diversity of environment only enriches the character's experience.

    If it were about the engineering, then building would require a lot more problem solving skills and probably not be done at the character level. By contrast, the building in SE is simplified. Most problems can be solved with a simple "moar blocks" mentality. This means that building is less a matter of solving problems and more an aspect of stylization. This is especially true considering the lack of challenges or goals in the game. The only goal right now is just the core mechanics of the game; t's not if you can get all the resources to build a big ship, it's only the style (and efficiency) you do it in that matters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. ShadedMJ

    ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    270
    I'm not trying to be too snarky here, but .......

    Maybe you were looking for "Nutrition Engineers" or "Hydration Engineers"

    Edit : I'd just like the "Space" part completed first before adding in nutrition/hydration.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. Forcedminer

    Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227
    space or maybe planet survival guy but every now and then once robot now fully organic wolfs show up so you have to shoot at them or maybe grind them but the cross hair is still off so you have to aim at them awkwardly now their dead but you can loot mechanical parts from an organic body now build a super duper fighter plane hover thing that ignores all known aerodynamic laws and destroy the evil pirates base nobody's home but someone left the drone building machines on..............the game.

    also things explode
    but not like a micheal bay explode more like a ....I've met some tiny resistance...oh well time to explode even though im just metal...explode.
    the game.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Taemien

    Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    Anyone still going on about how planets don't belong are living in a fantasy. They're in SE, they're not leaving SE, its just how it is now.
     
  5. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,964
    You're a couple years late to the planets debate, Bubba.

    Arguing the semantics of the game title.... hahahaha.

    Tell me... how much doom is in Doom?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. FlakMagnet

    FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    I didn't quake once playing Quake, though I did build a big boat and put some animals on it in Ark .......
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  7. 333546323

    333546323 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    213
    Yah b its a game so many games the tittles dont relate to the game its kerbal space program why isint it called kerbal space build up becaus you build ships and staitons
     
  8. FlakMagnet

    FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    I am guessing 'Kerbal Failed Orbit Burn up on Re-Entry' didn't scan as well :)

    But...on a serious(ish) note, the game does need more engineering options. I liken it to Lego.....

    When I was a kid, I had loads of Lego. You had blocks, flat pieces and you had some basic slopes that were meant to be roof pieces, and that was about it. You had some wheels in limited sizes, but nothing much. There were a few hinged pieces, but I had a couple of those. With those simple blocks (and an imagination) I built cranes, ships, galleons, tower blocks, space craft....everything. Some had serious structural issues I had to solve ( like my wrecking ball crane with a big steel ball bearing on a string... or my efforts at making a railway... but I would spend hours happily trying to make complex shapes out of simple pieces.

    Move on to today, and Lego sets are made up of fewer and fewer simple parts and more and more purpose built shapes. Sure, the end product looks prettier, but the means by which they are made has become less of a challenge.

    The same should apply to SE blocks. Make blocks that are much less specific in function, but which the clever minded can put together in complex ways to make great things.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,964

    I think a lot of this is happening organically. Ramps, staircases, catwalks, window blocks, etc. are all serving purposes unrelated to their descriptions.

    Versatility was the name of the game with Lego and my childhood as well. If I could see it, I could build it. But as far as engineering, you had to incorporate a lot of the Technics sets of the day with gears, axles, pins and so forth. I had a motor pack (just one) but it went to use in propulsion, to crane-work.

    I think properly solving the rotor/piston thing to where people were comfortable using them in multiplayer would bring a lot of the engineering back to the game: retractable landing gear, motorized ramps, etc. are hallmarks of great ships that are fully functional and immersive to pilot.

    Many people build and release blue prints that do NOT contain rotors and pistons and it's considered a feature. Not being able to project sub-grids is a bummer. But having your ship explode or do weird things in gravity fields... that's much worse.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,460
    SE needed planets. Not at first perhaps, but as the game developed, it just grew into having planets. I'm really glad they're in the game, just need some manure now, to grow them a little.. ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. ViroMan

    ViroMan Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,123
    We have plenty of choice characters on this forum who spew out enough "manure". We just need to direct them to the appropriate direction instead of on here.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  12. FlakMagnet

    FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    Planets ...yes....they have a different environment to work in ( which is basically what they are providing ) but Ronin has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Rotors and pistons are basically the only 'engineering' blocks that we have. They need to be fixed. As an absolute priority. I understand the current push for improved performance and less lag on MP servers, and that's all good ... but it's not everything.

    I have seen some of the stuff GrindyGears builds, and would like to see more of that stuff, but you wouldn't dare try it on a server without expecting serious issues. The whole sub grid thing still needs a LOT of work to be reliable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    549
    For the Planets, i have to say - on my server the user happy to have planets as with mods and customization, it can (and should) be a very different game play as in space ... one thing vanilla lacks barrely ...
    Vanilla planets the same as space in all ways - except gravity, what is for nearly all mining operations an big drawback as all "toys" do doing this are designed for zero gravity ... - and it have Oxy .. what is in vanilla not an big deal, as oxy is easy and in big quantities to collect ...
    So in vanilla, the planets look nice, but have from gameplay only drawbacks that was never adressed ...

    To pistons and rotors i can only agree....
    But have to say, the nice ability to "lock" an grid on the 2-part blocks (like Pistons/Rotors/Wheels) is a nice idea (if it would finaly work "bugfree" - ATM it is an gambling to doing this, as you dont know, if you unlock it, will it explode - act strange - or will it work, and after an server reload it will broke ? ..... ) but IF (and this is an BIG IF ..) the blocks fixed (piston/rotors/wheels) to not wobbling around and doing what expected ... the lock ability is then pointless ..... cant think of an sensefull usage, if the blocks work (anytime) as expected ....
    (ATM only wheels look nice and stay even under low simspeed on place and cars dont jump up and down anymore .... Pistons wobling still .. and rotors too ....)

    Regards
     
  14. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    The MP stuff and the rotor/piston issues are closely related. In my experience they don't work that bad in single player.
     
  15. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,964
    Yes, but in multiplayer being able to out-engineer the other players creates an earned advantage.
     
  16. [flux]

    [flux] Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    69
    Being thats its space engineers...

    Its about space, the engineer, and the engineering.

    Whats in space?
    Nothing or space, asteroids, planets, stars, and other phenomena such as black holes and energy waves. And whatever else.

    About the engineer?
    Breathe, eat, sleep, live and survive. Tools and weapons. Some customization of the individual. What else you want? Everyone seems to hate on a toilet block; but yet, every long voyage vessel has one, even busses and boats. Im just pointing it out not casting a vote.

    The engineering?
    Blocks upon blocks. Whole nother discussion. And we can pseudo engineer our own blocks as mods. People have made hinges and different thruster designs. Some mods have been made vanilla. More real engineering would lead to conduit or piping blocks causing bulkier ships. Its a thin line to walk. I will say, bring ladders back.

    Whats a space engineer to to?
    This is the real question. And probly another thousand threads already.

    Its beta. And i think we are lucky enough to have input on its development. Im not aware of any other game that has been changed or grown as much, or a game that has been shaped by forum input as much as this one. Players have the title of tester and they are credited with solving coding issues. Good work.

    And good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,214
    to sum up about planets haters

    they are just blaming planets being the cause of all the game bugs and development slowing down and the game changing the "original" direction, (also people with low end PC's...or laptops). They say, making planets delayed MP and other stuff for 2 years, but, If I remember correctly, they made planets like, in 6 months? I know there was some issues at the release date, but they are now working fine, since a year ago or even more. They also think they could use that time to fix pistons and rotors *lol*.... pistons and rotors are unfixable
     
  18. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    549
    One thing the "Planet haters" dont overthink (i am not surprised he think so short...) is, i , and many many other have NOT buyed the game without Planets ...
    The sell amount for an game , where you only fly in an boring asteroid field and crash your ships in another was taken and the sales was going down - and with this the development money ...
    And actual are many similar games (build ship in space with more or less customization and fight/crash with other) out and make this part miles better, more stable and with more FPS ...
    For the "fraction" where like to build big grids, it is harder to found an replace, as the most games out have only blocks with limited functionality ...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Syncaidius

    Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    824

    Personally I think there's already enough "survive against your own body" and not enough "survive against space". There are plenty of survival games already which simulate pooping, hydration, nutrition/hunger, stamina and they tend to get repetitive pretty fast. Dealing with oxygen, energy and hydrogen is already enough for most people. Many have previous said on these very forums that they don't even play with oxygen enabled because its annoying. So adding more character needs to tend to would be counter-productive.

    Right now, SE has an amazing construction system (excluding all the bugs), but once you're done building, there is absolutely nothing to do with your creation apart from twiddle a few buttons, fly around for a bit and then smash it into something else and watch the destruction unfold.

    The one drone ship that does attack, is very easy to take down once you find its weakness, which then turns it into a giant loot-crate which makes all the other cargo ships pointless to capture.

    On the topic of planets, I don't think that people actually hate them, but dislike how unfinished and barren they feel. Many people think they came too soon before the rest of the game was ready and for the most part, the developers have had to pour time into optimizing them which could have instead been put into adding more content/gameplay mechanics in order to make planets fit into game as more than just a sight-seeing experience.

    I love planets, but the performance hit from them negates most of the fun to be had (especially when you look back at them from orbit and your fps drops from 60 to < 30 simply from reaching orbit). I've only mentioned a single problem with them, but you'll find plenty across the forums, which is usually the source of discontent towards planets. The idea is amazing, but in practice they drag the game down, both on the development side and for players.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. NoThanks

    NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    479
    As someone else here implied, I only bought the game right after the inception of planets. And as others have also noted in that time... planets have become more or less stable, even in MP. SE with planets is all I've known, and in fact when I first bought the game, I realized I had downloaded and played it previously... before planets, most likely during a free weekend or something. And I never went back... not until Planets were introduced permanently (it was cute, but seemed incomplete). Since then there's been marked improvement on working with planets in game... Pistons and rotors however are a different story. I still remember the first time I took my single player map online and only a few minutes in my sun-tracking solar array catapaulted into the air, and flew off into just a tiny speck on the horizon....

    At the time... It was hilarious, but I didn't realize it would be a permanent feature of the game.... Like the swingset in GTA IV.

    I like planets. I think they add depth to the game, unfortunately by adding that depth they've created a void in game play/ organic sandbox objectives that has yet to be filled.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. FoolishOwl

    FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    523
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I'd thought about getting Space Engineers a few years ago, because I liked the idea of a sandbox game where I could freely design spacecraft and space stations. The reviews I looked at warned that, while SE had enormous promise, there was little to do with the ships, once built, except to crash them into things.

    I bought SE a few months ago, during another sale, when the screenshots and videos prominently featured planets, specifically ships landing on planets, rovers driving around, and so forth. That pretty much looked like what I wanted. I don't want to make a big deal out of the title, which is a bit silly, but my sense is that the interesting thing about space travel is the enormous contrast between environments. Space, itself, is almost the definition of uninteresting; it's a void that separates interesting things, and space ships are interesting things that move through this void. Landing on a moon or a planet is very much core to my fantasies of space travel. As for the engineering bit, well, there are obviously challenges to overcome in designing ships to land on planets, especially while carrying ground vehicles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. ViroMan

    ViroMan Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,123
    The same... I did not want it until there was more to do then build and crash things.... which it still sort of is. lol
     
  23. damoran

    damoran Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    608
    I picked up SE the day it came out as early Access. Back then it really was just building space ships in a small asteroid field. No functional blocks, no weapons, no wheels, no conveyors or survival mode, no oxygen or fuel. It was just armor blocks, power, cargo, gyros and engines.

    You built something to fly it around aimlessly and then crash it. Space had a 50km limit, but there wasn't anything out of the 4-6 asteroids you started next to so no point to go anywhere.

    I didn't feel there was engineering involved since there was not even proper thrust physics at the time and no functional blocks at all. So it was engineering as much as building a spaceship out of legos is. I would have called it spaceship designer.

    Still, compared to anything else out there at the time it was a very promising demo in so far as you could build a ship, minecraft style, and then move it around. Most other games at the time you couldn't move the things you built everything was static. Now of course that is different. I still feel SE has the best block building out of all that I have tried and if they'd push the building aspects of the game a bit further or go all out for survival. Currently, it's somewhere in between these two games.

    Survival was always pitched as a "mode" sort of like "team death match" used to be for an FPS.
     
  24. FoolishOwl

    FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    523
    Another thing that's changed: my understanding is that an earlier version of SE came with a series of tutorials that had you work through some of the mechanics of the game. When I got it, and this is still the case, those tutorials were gone; instead we've got a "campaign" that gives you some cursory introduction to some of the mechanics, but mostly seems to depict Space Engineers as a single-player open world RPG with some sandbox elements. Which is bizarre, of course, because it lacks the minimum features you'd expect in an RPG. The SE menus included some links to old YouTube videos that are obviously incomplete and out-of-date as introductions to SE mechanics.

    This is pretty much why I'd like to see a roadmap: it looks like they're undertaking a major change in direction in development of the game, but it's not at all clear what they're planning exactly. I love a good open world RPG, and one with sandbox features would be great... but, they're basically starting from scratch as far as RPG elements go, and I'm not at all confident they've got the skillset to pull it off, or that they've got a coherent plan for it.
     
  25. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    It's just a tutorial campaign. If I were you I wouldn't read any more into it than that, it'd just be setting yourself up for disappointment. I'd say it's another experiment, to see what works and what doesn't, not to mention a showcase to display what's possible for people to do using the visual scripting tool.

    Until I see more campaign parts, that's what I'll be going with.
     
  26. FoolishOwl

    FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    523
    Sure. As a showcase, the tutorial is pretty good. But, as I said, it leaves me wondering what their plans are.

    Also, some good hands-on tutorials about the mechanics of the game would have been nice. I don't know how good the tutorials they used to have actually were.
     
  27. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,867
    They were outdated. Which is why they were removed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,964

    I pitched an idea a while ago to give a production boost to refineries and assemblers in natural gravity based on the amount of gravity. By doing so you create a benefit for being on a moon/planet. That would also be compatible for players on servers without planets and those who have oxygen on or off.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    549
    I have this maked "more reality" like .. (why should an industrial mechanic work on an Atmo better as in the space ? - specialy the blocks are identical from build/components/GFX ..)
    On planets you can use suits without oxy part - and with incrased inventory
    On planets you have Arodynamic effects and can very power saving travel with Planes long distances ..
    On starterplanet it is Oxy for "Free" - the oxy generation is HEAVILY incrased in ice consum and power consum (oxy-farm) ...
    You need food, where is easy makeable on starterplanet - but hard to doing in space or baren planets - so you musst carry it over (food and drink)
    And a couple of adjustments for NPCs and ore spawning (planet Vs Space) wehere make planets way more secure (except dangerous areas ..) and better in resource collecting that asteraoid (asteroids spawning is set very very low .. without an Radar , it is not easy to found the asteroids ..)

    This all make planets way less power hungry and complicated to live as in space ... (like in reality ..)
    But it is not for all play styles ...

    Regards
     
  30. Syncaidius

    Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    824
    That's a pretty good idea.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.