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Hmm...what have we fixed today?

Discussion in 'General' started by SubtleSloth, Jun 23, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    So let me get this straight. The calculations the game does to figure out where everything is has nothing to do with whether a turret fires? Location has no effect on firing?
    I will grant that some changes have ALMOST zero effect on other things. On the reverse, though, I invite you to consider oxygen pressurization and its effect on sim speed. Why would Keen add it as default, then reverse to off by default, unless the oxygen pressurization had more of an effect than anyone realized?
    --- Automerge ---
    At first.
    --- Automerge ---
    Let us also consider the effect of your graphics card in your framerate, which in turn affects sim speed, potentially throwing off calculations in unknown ways.
    --- Automerge ---
    My computer is a shit. Your computer could be a high end Alienware or whatever. Do you expect the same results?
    --- Automerge ---
    This might be a better example. Let's say, in the process of developing the nice new hydrogen/ice power block, the team has to do a little work in the code dealing with toggling blocks on and off. Maybe this change affects other toggles as well, like shoot on/off, or the targeting toggles. A minor mistake in the code to toggle things could then lead to a turret considering all targeting toggles as off.
    --- Automerge ---
    Why would they change that code? To create the switch between ice and hydrogen fuel. One mistake. A potential cascade.
     
  2. PLPM

    PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    You really don´t know what you´re saying and how you´re arguing isn´t any different.
    Oxygen involves the active monitoring of closed space within a grid, it is taxing, just as a powered grid is taxing due to the blocks having to know if there´s power or not on a constant basis. Making a thruster output ten times its power does not make it any more laggy than a normal one, it heavily depends on what is being monitored, but I don´t know why we´re talking about this at all.

    Now yes, position is important, just as much as the distance from the turret, and if it is an actual target. But those are very much different calculations than physics are, and with physics I mean forces interacting with each other, not position itself, position itself is the easy and straightforward part and every machine can do it, now, now. I won´t lie, there are limits when calculating position, yes, that´s why the jump from 32bit to 64bit is and was so sizeable, bugs and glitches due to position can happen, but that´s not reliant on how forces are calculated.

    I can´t say it is not hard nor simple, but code is something that while may look messy and be a pain to deal with, follows a VERY specific set of rules to work, and it can be very, VERY sturdy and reliable depending on how tight it is. Otherwise, you wouldn´t be able to code anything without it failing you with every little addition you do.
    --- Automerge ---
    I´d burn at the stake whoever made such a library or mixed files in such a way that can happen, there´s no reason to have that be organized in that way and it SHOULD NOT be organized in that way.
    Mixing code in that way is a great way to get fired or chastised.

    And sorry there´s again that misconception with physics and position, and actually, sim speed is not connected to framerate so...

    Phyiscis; two objects collide; never the same, even on the same system.
    Position; I move one meter forward and stop, always the same regardless of system.

    One can vary between systems, the other, can´t. Because the same measuring stick is being used for both systems in the case of position, while physics involves A WHOLE lot of other calculations, and why it´s so taxing...
     
  3. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    We've already established that Keen's code isn't the cleanest. I feel there are many arguments that have been made regarding that, most commonly in conjunction with one of many changelog discussions.
    As for it being reliable and sturdy, I have one question. Is it sturdy and reliable, or are we still in beta?
    You seem to be arguing from a position of ideal circumstances. I'm just looking at the evidence and calling it as I see it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but rather that than attack others based on personal assumptions and ideals.

    Yes, Keen fucked up. Give them some time to fix it! The facts are out there. You can make a decision to play, wait, or delete, but you cannot decide a single damned thing for Keen.

    External micromanagement by the Internet is a horrible business model for a game company.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. PLPM

    PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    Well, If their code is really, really, as that, I´ll have to concede. Yes, I´m wrong and you´re right and I´d be a complete moron in that case.

    But I don´t think that´s the case... I don´t want it to be, I´d much rather imagine it´s a lack of communication within the staff than a lack of organization IN the code...

    And I won´t argue the beta label because I don´t like it :p

    Nevertheless... I doubt SE was juryrigged in that way :) Or at least I want to believe so :p
     
  5. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    Disorganization among staff would likely result in disorganization in the code, unfortunately.
    Maybe YOU don't like the beta label, but clearly Keen thinks it important, likely due to the obvious state of the game here and now.
    I'd like to believe Keen has their coding together too, but take a look at any changelog and read the responses. Look at the evidence, the results. It's the only thing we can be sure of.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Syncaidius

    Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    824
    The Fun Pimps - 7 Days to Die
    Pretty much the same as Subnautica's changelogs. Detailed explanations of every change:
    https://7daystodie.com/a16-early-streaming-release-notes/

    Probably shouldn't add a second but, just for the sake of showing that translating is not an excuse for lack of changelogs:
    https://forums.factorio.com/viewforum.php?f=3&sid=4bc3e8407fb0b96d5ee1aa8106d8511a

    Factorio are also Czech developers, smaller than Keen, yet they still manage to write detailed changelogs (which is then reposted by a bot to the forums, with links to forum bug reports) for every single patch and update, as well as a weekly dev blog post. These devs listen to every piece of feedback. Good or bad. That IMO is how their game currently has a 98% rating on Steam, but they were doing all of this long before releasing on Steam.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  7. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    549
    The problem here is .... even if he write "all" in the changelog "he" think it fixed ...
    Not rare (sadly), the "fix" not fix it - so it is anyway no addition to the user, stay in the changelog "bug 345 is fixed" and he get stright after updating his game the "bug 345" .....
    So i musst say. i dont bother at all with the changelog .... as you cant "trust" it anyway .... (the same as the SimSpeed last times ..)
    Would be nice to have .... maybe .....

    Regards
     
  8. Bumber

    Bumber Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,018
    AFAIK, the CTG is separate from Keen's hired testers. It apparently consists of loyal veteran players that share Keen's vision. In other words, they're not all professional bug testers.

    I don't think the large ship performance testing is being done by the CTG, but instead by Keen's experienced programmers. The CTG is supposed to catch and report bugs before each release, not optimize the game.
    I question the thoroughness of their test plans, as they seem to routinely miss obvious issues. I mean, shouldn't it involve turrets somehow?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    We can draw a few conclusions from that. For one, the turret issue would appear to have been introduced after the CTG session. As well, one might conclude there is a separate department for pre- and post-CTG tweaks, leading to a few apparent issues left in that will probably be addressed during the typical update cycle. One can also conclude that the turret bug is a rather difficult bug to stomp, since it wasn't stomped between CTG and release.
    So many people have just assumed squashing a bug only takes someone pointing out the results. Fact of the matter is that finding the cause to the buggy effect can be difficult, especially since it should have worked right the first time but didn't. OBVIOUSLY, if people opened their eyes and closed their screamholes.
     
  10. Spets

    Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,214
    Bohemia Interactive Studios
    all ArmA series, and also for one of the best essential modification ACE3
    they always put all the little changes and details even if you don't even know what some of them even mean
    https://dev.arma3.com/post/sitrep-00136
    https://dev.arma3.com/post/spotrep-00071

    ACE3
    https://github.com/acemod/ACE3/releases
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Bumber

    Bumber Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,018
    Or one can conclude they had other priorities.

    Really, they probably shouldn't be releasing stuff that isn't tested by the CTG, unless it's a critical hotfix.
     
  12. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,964

    Turrets have two issues:
    1. Identify a block that is a valid target.
    2. Calculating a firing solution.

    It seems things went sideways on issue #1 when they tried to solve the friendly fire problem of shooting through your own grid.

    With all the changes to physics using multi-core physics it seems that the turrets can't calculate their firing solutions. In order to calculate one, you have to take a grid, note it's position at T0 then sample it again at T1, calculate it's velocity and heading. You also have to take the turret and do the same (it's moving too if it's not a station). Then the velocity of the ammunition, the distance, and angle of the firing solution to hit the target at T2. If the timing gets janky then you'll never hit the target or at least where the AI is calculating where the target should be.
     
  13. ViroMan

    ViroMan Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,123
    I would be totally cool if one Thursday they said "No update this week... there is an issue and we need to fix it before we release the update. You know... so we don't CTD everyone who wants to play."
     
  14. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    So we should wait until the CTG has gone through several cycles of comprehensive testing, wiping out all of the bugs and then retesting? Until there are no more bugs? That's... That would take just about as long, and we would have the same brokenness for that whole time. People will flip their lids because they don't see the work Keen has to put in on all fronts and assume their requests are being ignored. Hmm, that last bit sounds familiar. Why is - OH YEAH, THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.
     
  15. [flux]

    [flux] Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    69
    Ignoring spekfreak makes this website so much better
     
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    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. SpecFrigateBLK3

    SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    I see your account is still active, despite you asking to delete it. And how interesting that you posted so soon after me. Almost like you're following me.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
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