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To Keen: the main reason people quit this game in the past and in the future

Discussion in 'General' started by lightzy, Mar 25, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964

    Are you a larger than usual target?
     
  2. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Yeah, 2-meters tall (6'-7"). And I was the fat kid, too. Big and slow. A terrible combination for dodge ball...or a perfect target...you pick.
     
  3. Morloc

    Morloc Apprentice Engineer

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    264
    It was always great fun to throw the ball at that big dopey kid....until he caught the ball....then everyone fled in terror.



    -Morloc
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    I have encountered a number of people that quit because they cant do what they want with vanilla blocks and refuse to use mods for whatever reason. Remember when Keen was doing weekly updates and we got a new block or two every time? People that had "quit the game" came back and hung around waiting to see if Keen was going to give them what they wanted so they didn't have to use a mod. That's still happening. Major updates bring people out of the woodwork hoping for a chance to make a better vanilla build. It's not just blocks. Sometimes it's a feature like relative dampening or magnetic boots. What Keen has done, among other things, is to make the game more stable so that mods have less issues, and THAT has caused people to quit.

    In fact, it's fairly safe to say that anything Keen does will make people quit. Question is, does that matter? If sales remain steady does it matter if a bunch of people quit? There are a number of people that I am friends with who stopped playing because SE was not moving in the direction they had hoped and/or the game's limitations were just too frustrating, or Keen just did not seem to be able to find a suitable solution to their pet peeve (not to diminish the peeve. It's just that the assumption was that the solution was simple when in fact it was not). This goes for many a fine Modder as well. Putting a lot of time and effort into a mod, only to have it rendered useless by an update, will send Modders elsewhere.

    So to me it looks like the main reason people quit this game in the past and in the future is because the game is still a work in progress, which means there's a chance, however slight, that any individual could influence the final result, one way or the other. For some people that means if things don't go their way they quit playing, some more loudly than others ;). If the game actually sucks, that's a problem. If the game keeps going, however, can we blame quitting on the game? If as many people or more are buying the game than quitting the game, is quitting an issue?
     
  5. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964

    People quit. Their attention spans lack. The assumption is that everyone has the same level of interest. But they don't. They invest as much time in this game as they would any other game... and then move on to the next game. SE does have a vocal and broad following. But I doubt that's the majority of players. I'd give most players 3 to 6 months on any game and then they're done. On the flipside, that's great for Steam since they'll purchase a new title to play the one that they're bored with. Long term players aren't that prevalent.
     
  6. ShadedMJ

    ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't understand why players want to use 300+ mods at one time. I've seen this. Then after a revision outdated mods crash and I say "Mod called 'Planet Oopsie' caused crash" and now they remember they included it. Players have decided the only way the game is fun for them is to have these 40+ interconnected mods then get upset when one needs an update.

    I think I have about 12 mods each working independently (maybe use 4 at one time), the mods seldom need updates, and I have only minor inconvenience during update time.
     
  7. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I have about 200 mods that I always run, and I'll have loaded an additional 50 or so that I want to try out. Yeah, an update was always a nail-biter because there was no way I was getting through a major update without losing five of them for good and ten others will act weird for a while. If the update was drastic I'd probably lose a number of Modders as well.

    That's the bad side. Good side is that mods give me what I need to make my stuff work.

    Last couple of updates didn't seem to affect any mods I use a lot or are key to a particular build. Things are more stable these days. The real problems come from mods that use the game code to do something. If that code changes the Modder either has to go back to work or the mod is done. I've noticed fewer mods per week in the workshop, and the quality of the mods has improved. I suspect a year from now 300 mods in a session will be quite common.

    I'm not including scripts in these numbers.
     
  8. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964
    I can't imagine getting 300 different snippets of code from 300 different amateur people, putting them in the same game engine and having everything work properly. Maybe I have low expectations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    @Ronin1973
    This see you mostly wrong ...
    The most mods are only blocks where the same data fields as in vanilla simply filled with different values - or an different 3D model of the block ... no "magic" code somewhere...
    [but very old non maintained block mods "can" have outdated variables or not the new (like the PCU value) or the 3D model can be of an old format or use old textures (purple block problem..) - and if you have an very dumb modder, then he can even make here from the start errors .....]
    Only a couple of mods realy alter game behavor ... like an drag mod or mods that simulate gas weight ...
    Here you have right .... this is often the source from problems (specialy on DS - as here come the network communication additionaly on top..) , if the dev of the mod not update his work periodicaly with the keen game updates and/or changes ..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964

    I read this in my Yoda voice.

    Changing block attributes in XML is technically a mod. But I think we're referring to unique blocks in this context; not reskinning or changing their values. There's no way to get 300 mods to get along nicely and stay that way for very long if at all. After being here for a few years, I've noticed people complaining about the game and then when pressed, admit to installing a ton of mods then being frustrated that the game doesn't work smoothly; additional CPU resources, lack of optimization, conflicts between mods.

    Modding leads to bugs.
    Bugs lead to anger.
    Anger turns to rage-quitting.
    The dark-side of modding, wary should you be.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Yeah, way.

    I've logged thousands of hours in sessions with 300 mods. Mostly block mods. Some of them run scripts, like AutoMcD's Nav Ball. Most of my ships are 80% or better mods. I'm not saying all mods are benign. Some are just slapped together and maybe rushed to the Workshop for a quick wave of upward pointing thumbs. The good ones's are easy to spot. They'll have plenty of pictures and a video or two in the Workshop, and they will have adequate instructions if necessary. They're not the problem.

    Scripts, though...
     
  12. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    549
    And you should not forget (wat if mostly ..) that mods lead to an more stable game ....
    If the game runs nicely with block A with value C and D .... this dont mean an bug is hiden in the code that come only to light, if you use the Block A with value C and E ..... so the modding help to catch bugs that other would be hard to find (much more testing ...)

    But the stupidiness of the players ( mods "can" make problems should every time if i use mods remembered..) you cant fix .....
     
  13. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    2,005
    Mods usually do not create problems, it is rare that they do. Mostly if there is an issue from an update the Mod itself just stops working, or if it does create a problem where it causes the game to crash it is usually easily spotted in the log file and you know the mod that caused it so you can disable it and let the mod author know.
     
  14. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    549
    Here i musst disagree ........ if we talk over more than very simple Block mods (different values in variables)....
    The purple texture problem is an ongoing, every couple of month coming back problem, with mods where the texture relies on an keen texture .. but this have removed, renamed or path changed, or is simply broken - and it can be an problem with the 3D model too - not specialy the "pure" shape, but with SE special things like the points where conveyors can connect .... very old block mods have here outdated file formats and even can have problems with the shape and oxygene, as in time he was created, no oxygene calculation was ingame ... it can still work .. or not ...

    The problem with the log file is, the avarege user dont understand this most times correctly ...
    It see harmfull errors and violent errors and dont know what if doing wich things wrong .... (o.k. - the Critical errors are clear ;) )

    And very complex script mods, like the drag mod, can slow down or crash or make other thing happen (dont let the player spawn .... we haved all of this in the last years ..) that would not "happen" without mods .... and even more on an Server ....

    So to summ up ... mods "can" be an source of problems ..... (this the reason i make my mods mostly self or modify existing mods .. so i know what is going on, on my server :) )
     
  15. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Scripts technically are not mods. :)
    But that is why we have the option to use mods. Anyone who uses one knows there is a potential it will stop working.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. R-TEAM

    R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    549
    oh - my fault :)
    I mean mods with complex api scripts - not the scipts you use on programable blocks or can loaded over the workshop ...
    ;)
     
  17. ShadedMJ

    ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    270
    No.... they don't......
    I hear a lot of players saying "game is bad because this mod no longer works. fix your game so this mod works !!111!!2!"
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Yeah, some people won't play without a shield mod. Some mods drastically alter the game in order to create an experience that is like some other game they like. In the past a lot of mods depended on an exploit, and most of them became obsolete within a couple updates. That pissed people off.

    I use a whole bunch of mods and I keep my fingers crossed. I don't know what I would do if Keen broke Digi's Conveyor Hinge.

    Seriously though, we can't expect Keen to leave bad code in the game just so some mods will keep working. People that don't understand that will quit. Should Keen be concerned about that? Is that bad for the community? It looks to me like the mods we get today are higher quality and much more... durable. Again, I believe that for every player that quits because a mod they like doesn't work any more, at least five more new people buy the game. If anything, more people quit over what happens in the vanilla game than for what happens to their mods.
     
  19. damoran

    damoran Junior Engineer

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    608
    I'm one of those that keeps coming back to the game hoping KSH has added the much needed blocks/mechanics for a decent survival/MP experience. It surprises me, we are still waiting on some basic things that should be common sense vanilla additions such as off-line grid protection. It's extremely frustrating that priority seems to be skins and decorations.

    Mods are not the answer, at least not for the basic game-breaking issues still present (such as off-line protection) because they are not always created with game balance in mind. Mod creators, typically have a singular problem they are solving for and configure it to their own play experiences and priorities. The point of having vanilla solutions is that it levels the playing field and you don't have to spend hours researching and configuring a mod to expect a fair and balanced game play experience that may be obsolete after the next update.
     
  20. Cyber Cheese

    Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    457
    There is a well maintained and fully configurable mod called faction safe zones that takes about 5 minutes to learn because it is well documented by the mod creator. Should the features in that mod be vanilla options? Yes. Is waiting for it to be vanilla a logical reason not to play? No.

    Also, offline protection is not a game-breaking issue. I have spent about 9 months on a dedicated PvP server with no offline protection.
    Artists who make new blocks and skins are not typically skilled in the programming needed to fix the game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Yeah, there's quitting and there's not playing, which I don't characterize as the same thing. Some people keep the game "on the shelf" waiting for Keen to either finish it or at least do something that makes them happy. They will play for a day or two and then stop. To me, when someone says they quit it's because they no longer believe is or will ever be what they want. There is a level of finality about it that suggests the code will never haunt their hardware ever again.

    After thinking about it for a while, I'll bet that the main reason people quit is because SE is not on their friends list of games and/or making room for all the other games their friends play leaves no room for SE. If all the people you know play everything but SE, your online MP experience with a bunch of total strangers might not measure up. Also, if you have the game because a friend talked you into it, and now that friend doesn't play any more, you probably won't play any more either. If something about the game ticks you and your friends off, just one friend quitting will probably get you to quit too. That's just human nature.

    Also, it's less likely than ever that an update will break a mod.
     
  22. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    2,005
    I take small breaks from SE from time to time. It is my friend that gets me back into playing extended periods time after time. Don't get me wrong I love SE, just sometimes I need a break. :)
     
  23. Concave

    Concave Apprentice Engineer

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    112
    I agree distance is a solution. Distance is ultimately what drives a game set in space. Jumping is the solution to distance. However, Instead of being instant, "jumping" should not be a teleporting warp but rather exponentially increasing and decreasing speeds in a straight vector. This means a server without a speed limit - special thrusters controlled by server code provide these high speeds in a linear path with gyros disabled during travel. Regular thrusters can provide combat thrust and cap speed at the sim stable 100 m/s during physics-heavy combat engagements.

    Think of the sequence for a Star Wars calculation for light speed jump. Fast travel must be a registered event prompted by the player, and handled by server code. This could provide Eve-Online-like-instance encounters and provide safety features like insurance so that a ship built piece by piece by a player could be paid out after a risk assessed destruction scenario. Perhaps there could be a time and resource penalty to discourage kamikaze behavior (though sacrificial crashing may be an option if the objective and reward is valuable enough - remember replacement ships are a given, just like pod in Eve needing to reduce in new vessel. Players can print copies ). An example of this would be random points in space where loot spawns, and players have a certain time window to choose to fast travel to it. By the time a certain number of players have responded (at different distances), their hyperdrive thrusters may give the certain amount of thrust set on a timer meant to sync up with other players who want to arrive close to a certain point, or too close, at the same time so they can compete over something expensive they have to scoop up (or late game tractor beam upgrade).

    Player death and cloning is restricted by a resource found only on planets (carbon). This forces frequent planetside interaction that the hypothetical space engineer needs - our virtual avatars do not decay from a zero G environment as our physical bodies would.

    But the goal is to mine asteroids, with much of the time spent planetside in groups building/fighting alternatively. This prepares group foot movement for eventual boarding "maps" where a somewhat standardized capital ship layout has been established for all factions so that we may raid each others ship(s) and ultimately board and capture if they choose to commit the resources to the final attempt wave (spawning and dying many times with limited tickets to drain, like Battlefield 2142 titan mode. Boarded vessels can repel a board sequence by winning in melee/small arms combat)
     
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  24. capnbeef

    capnbeef Trainee Engineer

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    20
    hello i'm along time player and have also encountered griefers, theirs already a useful tool that anyone can use to save your creations. save your builds in your blue print folder so if it gets targeted you'll always have a backup of your work you can save them in survival before logging off. and if your on your own server it dose not matter what happens you will be able to recover everything with ease. also i think a much simpler way to fix the "accelerate something to top-speed at the target" is to add physics to the bullets and rockets somehow so when the object gets hit it will have a small push or jolt to disrupt the original trajectory. in my own opinion realistically if you think about it people have also used this technique in real life in many cases in history. one of the most renown case is in the pacific war theater during ww2 kamikaze fighters would accelerate to top speed armed with a heavy torpedo and ram their targets regardless how many times they got hit or if there planes where critically damaged having a basic knowledge in physics the Japanese in many cases destroyed massive ships killing many people unfairly. all is love and fair in war its not pretty or fun, i like space engineers because its realistic and not fair sometimes you get hit with something unstoppable.
     
  25. hippybaker

    hippybaker Trainee Engineer

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    90
    Haha.. nothing the Japanese did to the Evil American Empire was unfair.

    Especially since Evil America, y'know.. NUKED their civilian cities with no warning at 8AM.

    "Had we have lost the war, we would have been hung for war crimes"
    General MacArthur

    Ok, back to gaming :p
     
  26. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    2,030
    “To the victor belong the spoils.” — Senator William L. Marcy, 1828; add to that the lack of accountability and blame. It’s just the way it is.
     
  27. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    To set the record straight, they (Japanese) attacked us unprovoked, on US Soil at 7:55 am on a Sunday morning. Within 2 hours 2,403 Americans were killed.

    Which started it all.

    Also, they refused to surrender after the first bomb, we dropped the second and had to threaten to drop a third before they gave up.

    Just assuming you didn't know those facts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. hippybaker

    hippybaker Trainee Engineer

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    90
    I knew.. But preemptively attacking the military base of a nation that had been provoking you, is a far cry different than nuking a civilian population.

    And the "murcunz did in fact, know it was coming and could have stopped it, but y'know..
     
  29. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Right, but we had not provoked them.
    Go back and ya know read them history books.
     
  30. Sirhan Blixt

    Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    467
    Actually, we kinda did. Not with direct military action but, to paraphrase von Clauswitz, "War is the continuation of policy by other means."

    I read them history books.
     
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