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What should a Combat DLC look like?

Discussion in 'General' started by SirConnery, Dec 15, 2019.

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  1. SirConnery

    SirConnery Apprentice Engineer

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    In case you haven't seen the developer talk about the possible upcoming combat upgrage, see here. Not that it's confirmed, but kinda.


    Anyway, what should this look like? A complete overhaul or just a few new turrets? Two things I absolutely want.

    1. More durable armor
    2. Much better station turrets. Make it like 1,5km range and sick bullet speed. These turrets would be huge, durable and only available for stations.
     
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  2. ShadedMJ

    ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    270
    I like a lot of the vanilla system the way it is. Pirates can be an decent opponent at the start, but once they are understood are easy to defeat. I'd rather be able to use mods to increase the difficulty as needed. What I'd be upset about is an overhaul that makes vanilla pirates impossible to defeat with my skill set, since I doubt I will be willing to put the effort into it.

    Opinion: I consider a combat upgrade a very very minor section of that video.

    I would like to add to the list:
    A way to better determine and repair damage using vanilla means. Not needing to run over every block with a welder .....
    A minor weapon update to have different ranges for weapons, or not just bullets/missiles.
     
  3. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    Personally I don't care, but


    I know that any kind of combat dlc will cause a complete community meltdown.

    Pay-to-win and all of that. And in case of weaponly, I agree that this would be in severely poor form by Keen. However since I don't do combat... see first line :p
     
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  4. mojomann71

    mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    2,005
    I am sure it would look like any other DLC... 3.99 or 4.99 :D
     
  5. zachusaman

    zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Lord Grey

    Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    426
    Pay-to-win is an absolute no-go. If a combat-DLC is planned, then it can only contain different textures and meshes for the same items that the vanila game has. That would be possible and within the pattern of past DLCs. A cooler looking gateling turret with the same stats as the vanila doesn't hurt. But new weapons class or combat mechaniks Need to be part of the basic game. Wouldn't mind a direct Energy weapon or a rail gun.
     
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  7. zachusaman

    zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    Agreed, maybe a combat DLC could be a free gift to the community, with the paid version having different looks. Personally I think we need bigger weapons because having to mass rocket launchers is very ineffective for performance and damage.
     
  8. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Radar

    Radar jamming

    Armored combat EVA suits

    Hand grenades

    Holographic tactical displays for large ships

    Homing missile parts

    Hacking computers

    Hacking computer countermeasures

    Tactical rocket launchers

    Grenade launchers

    Actual fighter cockpits

    Zooming binoculars

    Mines (the explody kind ;)). Ground and space

    Capital ship engines and gyros

    Hangar door that extends two and a half blocks.

    Flares

    Infrared vision

    Mech suits. I have concluded that the only way to get a powered armored suit to work in SE is to have your character BE the suit. That way they can use character animation to make the suit work, thus avoiding issues such as traction and balance. I'm talking about powered suits and exoskeletons here, not towering 100 ton walking battleships.

    Field medical kits

    Tactical medical bays

    Modify player death such that when a player is "one shot" they go unconscious so that they might be retrieved and revived. Revival time established in game setting from several seconds to several days.

    Wait... I'm getting carried away here. This was supposed to be about paid downloadable content.









    Fancy looking combat EVA suits.

    With matching guns.
     
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  9. Bullet_Force

    Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    368
    I wouldn't get excited about this. It's been 6 years and still we have only 2 basic weapons. PVP players are leaving this game in droves and yet these devs are still dragging their feet. They are completely out of touch with what players want.

    If they did by some miracle actually managed to add some PVP content to the game, it must include the following to be viable:
    • Radar - there needs to be a way to find other players in a reasonable amount of time.
    • Missile guidance - using scripts to guide missiles is very inefficient and slow on the server
    • More weapons - 2 weapons is not enough variation for good PVP
    • Jump drives - needs to have a counter to stop people instantly jumping to avoid combt
    • Shield System - A shield with 100% invulnerability is terrible game design. Shields should be able to be wittered down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  10. Lord Grey

    Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    426
    @Bullet_Force: You're still here? And with the same arguments...

    -The marksman rifle with an actual scope (like the cameras)
    -I definately like the idea of zooming binoculars
    -Heavy man-carried weaponry to fire rockets against ships
     
  11. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964
    Weapons as DLC... nope.

    There's a punch bowl and I'm just pinching one off.
     
  12. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    It's not a PVP game, so it's no wonder PVP players are leaving in droves. In fact, most of them left several years ago when it became obvious that SE was not going to be a PVP game and never will be. Keen didn't freak because they aren't making a PVP game but instead a sandbox game with PVP features. All those missing PVP players have not affected all the other people that continue to buy and play SE, nor has it diminished SE's ability to win awards for being a pretty darn good game. I might add that the disappointed PVP players that left have not been missed. Their aggressive play style was never welcome. Keen has strived to make SE so much more than a game where people just shoot each other. Yet, the more SE succeeds in being different, the more those hardcore PVP players yearn to drag SE into the morass of mediocracy. They won't be satisfied until every game you fire up on your device is a game where the point is to eliminate everyone else playing.

    The game needs PVP features in order to be more realistic. If the game's setting is to be believable, there must be conflict as well as struggle. They can have conflict, but it's not supposed to be the point. For instance:

    These are all good points. I know because I made them earlier ;). The first two are good for combat, but they can also serve other purposes. The third one cause realistically there would be more than just one pistol and one rifle. Much more. But...
    No, they don't. I don't know any better way to say it but jumping in SE is not instant, and a good PVP player would not be perplexed by the other player's ability to jump. It is always better to get good than to coerce the developer into dumbing down their game.
    • Shield System - A shield with 100% invulnerability is terrible game design. Shields should be able to be wittered down.
    [/QUOTE]
    The only thing worse than a shield with 100% invulnerability is any type of energy shield at all in a game that takes place in this century. Why is it that some people insist that every game be a shooter but they don't want to play it unless they have shields? They want to shoot up everyone else's stuff but they want their own stuff behind a barrier. They want a crutch to make up for bad design. Anyone that won't go into battle in SE unless they have a shield should consider not going into battle. The point of the game is figuring things out. Anyone that has not figured out how to fight without shields in SE is probably in over their heads.

    Nothing mentioned here should be DLC. Someone should start a thread about a combat update. Combat DLC will consist of decorative stuff. Aggressive-looking space suits and guns that otherwise work just the same as the vanilla stuff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  13. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    2,027
    Combat? I am a proponent for world peace. Or was it whirled peas? From a blender. Either one.
     
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  14. Ronin1973

    Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    I've been following Last Stand Gamers PVP server series on Youtube. It shows the potential of the game but it still needs a TON of constant human intervention to be entertaining.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Cetric

    Cetric Junior Engineer

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    814
    Amen.

    It's a clever concept to keep out of the usual "mediocre PvP morass". Because you will never see more toxicity between players than in a sandbox where they are supposed to kill each other. That would all fall on KEEN's feet consequently, why would they want that?
    (I know because I witness things in a MMO title about naval warfare (mostly) and their forum)
     
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  16. May Rears

    May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    430
    calll me cynical but funny how this is getting announced just after streams of the Weaponcore addon have started to appear. For those that don't know Weaponcore is a massive upgrade to the combat system created by a top modding team comprised of Darkstar, Nukeguard, Whiplash141 and Criegwarfare.

    It does not add any weapons on its own but is a framework for other modders to use, and have used. There are links to other mods using it on the steam page.

    https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=1918681825

    The only way Keen can have a combat DLC is to have the DLC feature only cosmetic model changes, any change at all or addition will be called P2W. Either that or if it introduces new weapons it is going to have to be a free feature otherwise there will be so many tears from PVPers that Keen will actually be able to bottle them and introduce liquid water to planets.
     
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  17. Morloc

    Morloc Apprentice Engineer

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    What?....eleven old guys shaking our fists at each-other is a meltdown?

    :D

    -Morloc
     
  18. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Yer damn skippy!
     
  19. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,782
    Ignoring the DLC part of the question, Having NPC AI characters would be a start.
     
  20. Stardriver907

    Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    No, it's not a meltdown. It's what we do.

    It's all those whippersnappers out there that do all the melting.













    (Looking at you, Spiff)
     
  21. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    2,027
    Oh, yeah. I see that.

    Now, you kids...

    [​IMG]
     
  22. zachusaman

    zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    Agreed, really hoping Marek brings more of that GoodAI over to Space Engineers. The demo below in 2014 was really cool to see, and the chat integration and drones are a nice start. I imagine performance has been a big hurdle in getting this implemented, as well as making it fun.

     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  23. Malware

    Malware Master Engineer

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    9,867
    @zachusaman GoodAI is general AI, not game AI. What you're seeing in that demo is just... plain old game AI. Well. It's not even AI, really (depending on your definition of AI), just path finding :D The only thing from GoodAI that exists in SE is a way to connect GoodAI "brains" for training, via a plugin - for the specially interested. We wouldn't want GoodAI in SE (at least not for years yet). It'll take up too much computing power for too little reward.
     
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  24. zachusaman

    zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    Was looking for more information about this and stumbled across a thread about the topic in 2018 with your responses, darn. Still, having the chat client integration is a nice start and hopefully, if nothing else the plugin leaves the door (or at least window) open for future opportunities.
    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/goodai-in-space-engineers.7399448/

    Computing power has really been Ryzen over the last few years, and with the surge in demand for GPUs to have hardware support for ray tracing (but more importantly, machine learning) I think we are a lot closer than people think, though I imagine the performance impact of a single AI trying to even pathfind a way to you on the ground (let alone in space/the air) is something you can't just throw cores at.
     
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  25. doncdxx

    doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    438
    Nice pun.

    I share your enthusiasm for the concept, but there's still so many technical limitations to the inclusion of machine learning in gaming. They've found a lot of commercial success with GoodAI, so hopefully they might've acquired enough practical experience to find some way to streamline the process and limit the aspects of machine learning to be usable in-game. Perhaps they could hybridize ML and traditional game AI. Maybe they could use GoodAI in a plugin for the game to allow users to train behaviors that output as traditional gaming AI code for use in-game.

    With Keen, we never know what they're planning so it's fun to speculate, but we have to make sure we have reasonable expectations. Keen's devs seem like clever people, so I remain optimistic.
     
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  26. Helaton

    Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    I'm ok with a Combat DLC that's paid for.

    But server owners just need a way to disable different 'vanilla' DLC in their servers. If the server owner allows the DLC, that's their decision and no one else's. The community takes it up with that server owner, not Keen. Keen just makes it available. I'd also see this applying for a lot of future blocks DLC.
     
  27. captainbladej52

    captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    462
    I still want to see some more sci fi type skins. Perhaps additional armor and weapons in general. Would still love to see a shield at some point for weirdos like myself and others that want a more futuristic type of feel to the game. Overall if possible I would love to see some kind of newer way to calculate combat so it doesn't cause so much lag.

    The big gripe I have with this kind of thing is that there's nothing to win in a game like SE. in a game like League of Legends, Smite, Hearthstone, or similar game, yeah that's pure pay to win because the stuff they let you buy can and does effect the end game and how well you can perform in game, with no means of acquiring the items for free in a timely manor. Or the prime example, Battlefront I before EA pulled the boxes was pure pay to win. With SE, there's no defined objective or anything that says "you must go here and do this" or similar. Plus this whole thing is easily addressed by sticking some free versions of the weapons in the base game and such but the "premium" turrets can be put into the DLC. Or just giving server owners a way to disable them.

    I like stuff like this that I'm cautious on the hacking computers thing as there could be massive potential for abuse if it's not done correctly. Also interested in what you mean by "capital ship engines and gyros." As for hangar doors, yes please, more variety on these would be amazing to see. And for the love of all things clang, give me my robot mech legs already so I can run around in a Chromehound, Mechwarrior suit, or a pseudo Gundam.

    No not really, you are just in the very small minority of "sup3r l33t hardcor3 pvp" and the other 99% of the game doesn't want what you want. As others have pointed out to you in the past including myself, this is not a pvp exclusive game. This is a sandbox game with the possibility of both pvp and pve occurring. The only job Keen has is to give folks enough sand, shovels, buckets, and tools to build with. What folks decide to build and how they use it is up to them.

    You can PVP as is right now in game and do just fine. The only thing that's next to impossible to do is force unwanted pvp on people, which is the way it should be. No one group's fun is so important it should be allowed to trump another group's fun.

    I see nothing wrong with these and wouldn't mind seeing this within reason. If there is going to be radar there should also be radar jamming. With missile guidance there should also be a way to confuse missiles and disrupt the lock. Much like how there are countermeasures today that can disrupt a missile lock.

    Wouldn't mind seeing more weapon variety myself. As for it not being good enough for pvp with the 2 we have now, the other 99% of the game doesn't have issues, seems to only be you that has the issue in that department.

    Still want those instant "I win" buttons to be able to force pvp on people and offline raid I see. First, the jump drive is fine the way it is and you are not entitled to force unwanted pvp or combat on people. Why should you be allowed to have a button you can push and instantly harm another person's ship without them having a counter to your jump drive jammer? If you're really interested in balance then your jump drive "counter" would itself need to have a counter. Even then being able to hit a jump drive if you see a foe coming that you don't want to fight is not a design flaw in the game, that's working as intended. The Jump Drive was designed to facilitate in long distance travel otherwise it would take hours or even literal days perhaps to reach other planets in the game, nothing more nothing less.

    As for a shield system, as much as I have gone back and forth with some of the folks in this thread previously, even I've never advocated for a shield system that makes you 100% invulnerable. If we're talking an actual combat shield like you might see in star trek or star wars, then yes I agree the shield shouldn't make you 100% invincible. I have proposed various shield designs on here before based on various designs I have seen in other games such as those similar to the shields in Star Trek Online. The shields in that game will stop anywhere from 90-95% of the damage going towards a ship with 5-10% of the remaining damage bleedthrough for the remaining damage. Once the shields drop, the hull can be damaged as normal. You only have so much shield energy to work with and once it's gone, you must heal it back up if you intend to keep using it. However you and I both know those comments towards a "shield system" weren't really about a true combat shield at all, but in reality were about the Safe Zone feature in game.

    The necessity of the Safe Zone's existence has been explained to you before in that it prevents griefers who would run around and destroy all of the economy NPC stations just because they could. Thus preventing others from being able to interact with the economy feature. Player made versions were made so that folks could have a means of protecting their stuff while they're offline and/or away from their station. It also allows players to setup their own trading type stations if they are not interested in pure combat. As with any type of feature there's always going to be those certain folks that try to abuse something, which is why previously I've said certain exploity bits need to be removed, such as being able to shoot from inside the Zone and kill foes on the outside while they can't do anything to you. Having a counter to the Safe Zone defeats the purpose of it to start with and at that point there is no reason to even have the safe zone. As is you can starve a safe zone out if you can cut off the zone from being resupplied with zone chips and/or power to keep it going. However the Safe Zone is fine where it is and is working mostly as intended.
     
  28. KissSh0t

    KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,782
    I want reload animation for player held weapons, I am sick of wondering about what science is used to teleport the ammunition from the astronauts pocket directly into the weapon with no need of reloading.

    I low key want a nuclear bomb because of reasons....
     
  29. Roxette

    Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,546
    You need to go see Ivanoff in Bulgaria for that.
     
  30. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Be the first kid on your block to be a nuclear power!

    [​IMG]
     
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