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[01.172] Large grid small ion thruster damage distance doubled

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Riz, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Riz

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    I have a ship that has internal retrograde thrusters. They have two empty blocks of clearance for the flame. I've been using this design for quite some time with no issues.
    However, as of the latest stable patch, the thrusters are damaging up to four blocks away. It happens with normal thrust but is much worse while dampening.
    I have been able to confirm this originally on a dedicated server in survival, then on single player creative.

    Here's a screenshot for reference.

    One armor block (distance 3) has been obliterated, and the block beyond it (distance 4) is damaged. The blocks above the thruster path are deformed but not damaged.
     
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  2. elowan

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    Definitely can confirm that the Large block / small thruster damage extends 4 blocks back from the tip of the cone. I'm not sure how long that's been true. From my 5 mins of testing, the damage zones for large block thrusters now seem to be:

    Ion:
    small: 4 blocks
    large: 5 blocks

    Hydrogen:
    small: 3 blocks
    large: 7 blocks


    Large block / small ion definitely used to have a 2-block kill zone. When did that change?
     
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  3. NikolasMarch

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    just checked the file that controls that, it seems ok in the DEV version, same as it has been...
    Small Ion Thrusters...
    <FlameDamageLengthScale>0.6</FlameDamageLengthScale>
    <FlameDamage>0.1</FlameDamage>
    <FlameLengthScale>1.15</FlameLengthScale>

    i will look at the stable version a bit later, unless someone else checks before me :D

    EDIT: i just looked at the other thrusters.... i t looks like they have increased the FlameDamageLengthScale for the both Large grid thrusters to 0.9, i checked this against a thruster mod i made not long ago, which shows 0.6 for large and small grid thrusters, im now going to have to check the recent 2.5x Hydrogen Thruster Efficiency mod i made the other day...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  4. hlws Tester KeenSWH Developer

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    Hi guys, there were some tweaking of the thruster damage. On develop it is broken to the other side, so it does just 1 block damage. After fixing that, I think it will stay at around Small Ion 4 blocks... Deformed blocks, which took actually no damage are deformed due to the destroyed block... if there would be just hole, they won't be deformed. Thank you for your feedback, have a nice day :)
     
  5. elowan

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    I should have specified -- while the OP's report was on STABLE, I did my checking (which confirmed a 4-block kill zone for Large Block / Small Ion) on the latest DEV build. So it's definitely NOT broken in the other direction on DEV, as hlws stated.

    As I stated above on DEV 1.173, the current damage zone for large grids is:

    Ion:
    small: 4 blocks
    large: 5 blocks

    Hydrogen:
    small: 3 blocks
    large: 7 blocks

    As Nikolas noted, the large block small ion thrusters have had their CubeBlocks data changed to:

    <FlameDamageLengthScale>0.9</FlameDamageLengthScale>

    I don't have any historical SBC data, so I can't really compare, but I thought they used to be 0.6. Either way, empirically, they're doing 4 blocks worth of damage (see my screenshot above). To be clear, that's not 3 blocks of damage + deformation; if you place a block into the 4th space in front of a (large block) small ion thruster, you get damage immediately.
    --- Automerge ---
    Just as an update, the latest patch on DEV (1.174) didn't change the large grid thrusters (they're still 4 blocks damage for small ion, 5 for large ion), but they did change the SMALL GRID ion thrusters -- neither large nor small thrusters seem to do any damage at all to blocks.
     
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  6. Riz

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    Whoa, whoa, what?
    Are you saying the burn distance will permanently stay at 4 blocks?
    As other users have said here, it was definitely 2 blocks until this patch. It has been for ages. This breaks a lot of my designs with internal thrusters, as well as I'm sure a number of other users.
    As said above, that would make small ion thrusters burn even further than small hydrogens.
     
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  7. Whiplash141

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    I seriously hope that y'all don't increase the thruster damage range after years of it being the same. This will make a lot of people unhappy. :/
     
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  8. NikolasMarch

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    i thought it was 3 blocks damage, and the 4th is safe....
     
  9. Riz

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    Nope. It was always 2, now it's 4.
     
  10. elowan

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    For LARGE GRID, ion engines were always 2 blocks of damage for small, 5 blocks of damage for large. For whatever reason, with one of the last couple patches (possibly 1.172) on both STABLE and DEV, the LARGE GRID / small ion engine now damages out to 4 large blocks, while the LARGE GRID / large ion is still 5. As reference, the LARGE GRID hydrogens are 3 small / 7 large, and the LARGE GRID atmosphere engines are 2 small / 4 large.

    Just to summarize, the way they're sitting right now, LARGE GRID / small ion engines damage nearly as far back as the large ion engine does, and 1 more block than the LARGE GRID / small hydrogen does (which has 3x the thrust).

    To throw in some super fun bugginess, all SMALL GRID thrusters (ion / hydrogen / atmosphereic) now do zero block damage -- you can literally box them in, touching the nozzles. (also, NikolasMarch, you may have been thinking of the SMALL GRID / small ion thrusters, which traditionally had a 3 block damage distance, before they broke them all)
     
  11. hlws Tester KeenSWH Developer

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    The issue concerning thruster damage is being discussed between the developer team. It was completely broken during the past three or two months and mostly disabled. We know this will cause issues in certain builds but we hope as engineers you can do the necessary changes to your design and overcome this change and challenge. It was not intended to have thrusters enclosed inside the ship.
     
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  12. Riz

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    Even for thrusters that aren't totally internal like my example, there are plenty of examples where thrusters don't face straight out in to space and are a minimum distance from armor to fit in a certain profile. A lot of mining ships are that way, since they often want thrusters somewhere behind their drills.

    I do hope we can get back to the 2-block distance for large grid small ion thrusters as soon as possible.
    To clarify, because I feel like this point might be missed, I don't think anyone's advocating for the 0 block range seen in dev. We just want the distances we know and have built for.
     
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  13. NikolasMarch

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    this is a major design breaking change, its bigger than KSH thinks it is, engineer it and overcome it will be more like 'mod' it back to what it was
    im not on about hidden thrusters, as mentioned above, nice tight compact builds to keep size and mass down, its bad enough that the drill radius has been reduced (i understand the reason for this change) to the point that ships can barely mine a big enough radius of voxels to be able to move into the gap they just mined, maybe needing more drills to cover this, but now on top of this the ships are going to have to be a little bigger to count for the increased flame damage length...

    just out of curiosity, why has the flame damage length been increased?
     
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  14. Project 06

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    My only problem with such long thruster damage lengths is when you're placing vertical thrusters. I have a hard time getting some thrusters down is the right spot without them torching wheat they're landing on into oblivion. With this change small ship's with need their vertical thrusters for landing shoved up to the top. Even if this change is only for large ships, this still may cause huge design issues for landing thrusters.
     
  15. suicideneil

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    I came here looking for an answer to this issue that I have just discovered after the last? update, and now I am extremely unhappy; 2 years worth of ships will now be broken and have to be fixed- usually resulting in a complete rebuild in cramped ships that were specifically made to have internal thrusters ( usually for aesthetics, such as ALL of my new Homeworld inspired ships ).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017 at 17:19
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  16. Pegas519

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    For more than 2+ years I play SE, I learned that you need to keep 6 empty bloc space between ION thrusters and other blocks, Maybe 5, but 6 is for safety. sometimes, thrusters may bursts. On dev brtanch, this has been abolished. Ion thrusters no longer do damage. PS. No need to scream.
     
  17. suicideneil

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    From my perspective, you have always needed a 3 block gap to prevent damage from small Ion thrusters on small & large grids- to change to 4 breaks a lot of ship designs- it is no different to changing the size of the thruster itself; imagine waking up and finding tens of thousands of ships needed rebuilding.

    It also needs to be pointed out that there was no announcement about this change, no patch notes, nothing- the devs just decided to spring this change on us without any consultation or asking for feedback, no warnings. Not cool.
     
  18. Pegas519

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    For some reason, I was getting damages at 5 blocks, when I tried and learn to allow 6 blocks. My ship designs are not affected, sorry to learn that it breaks your ship. My advice, wait until stable gets the next update and you won't have to worry about it anymore. In my point of view, always expect for the unexpected, that's why my ships are not broken. I am sounding like an a** maybe but don't scream out if you can't build properly. And I don't really care how many does allow 3 or 4 blocks. when I learned, it was 5 gets damaged when thrusters are using dampeners at maximum force.
     
  19. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

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    I always thought it was 4 blocks space for all thrusters. This will be interesting ...
     
  20. Riz

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    All of my major large grid designs have only 2 block gaps for small ion thrusters, so it was definitely 2 until this patch.
    I published my original Blacksmith in June after it had at least a month of in-game usage behind it, so I can attest to a 2-block gap being fine for most of a year at least.
     
  21. Pegas519

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    It was definitively 5 gets damage only on max dampeners usage. If they changed it, I wasn't aware. I have been playing a long time. like I said, when I learned, it was 6 blocks ok, 5 blocks gets damaged by dampeners. So I have been building accordantly all along.

    Edit: I would NEVER in a million years think it was ok to build 2 off the thrusters.

    Edit Edit (lol), I don't know what to tell you guys. change your building habbits??? i don't know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
  22. NikolasMarch

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    there have been a few videos testing the thruster damage flame length

    3rd oct 2014
    small grid:
    small ion - 3 blocks damage - 4th is safe
    large ion - 4 blocks damage - 5th is safe

    Large grid:
    small ion - 3 blocks damage - 4th is safe
    large ion - 3 blocks damage - 4th is safe


    had a quick look this is the only test i could see that wasnt a bug report or a mod, there probably are modern tests with the other thrusters but not showing up on a quick look
     
  23. suicideneil

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    It wouldn't bother me so much if they made thrusters more powerful to compensate for the extra blocks worth of damage- bonus points for completely redesigning the plant pot/chimney pot Ion thrusters- the old design looked better to me.

    Thanks for finding that video- that's how I've always remembered thruster damage to be, on Ions. I've always left 5 blocks for large Ions on small & large grids, 3 blocks for small Ions likewise- I hope they address the issue in the next update video.
     
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  24. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin

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    I've been using 4 this whole time. Never had any damage at all. Yet another area where things have been inconsistent.
     
  25. Riz

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    Clearly we need some kind of official word on what thruster damage distances are supposed to be, because these numbers are all over the place.
     
  26. Riz

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    Can we get an update on this, please? Any changes in the new dev patch?
     
  27. elowan

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    As of the Thursday patch, plus hotfixes, everything stands the same on DEV. All small grid damage distances set to zero, large grid / small ion damage distance doubled to 4 large blocks.