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1.184.500 - Client (Updated) - Space Engineers Constantly Crashing Windows/Force Reboot/ (Freezing)

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Reneta Scian, Oct 14, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    Is exactly as it sounds. While in Menus, my game is crashing my whole system while signing into a dedicated server, or signing into server/gamesave. It's happened 4 times since updated the game. Not sure what the deal is.
     
  2. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

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    37
    It could be the game causing a hardware problem to be exposed. Since space engineers uses so much ram, you might be looking at a bad memory module. You wouldnt usually expect a game to bring the entire system down with a force reboot. Not impossible by any means but... improbable.

    If this were me having the issue I'd test my memory for errors. A free memory tester is available here, if you are comfortable with booting from a USB. Ive used this one for at least a decade... https://www.memtest86.com/
    Poke it on a thumb drive and boot from it, the test is automated and if it errors out you know whats up.

    Another but less common hardware issue would be the video card or cpu overheating. Also sometimes a oxidation can even build up in humid climates and causes memory or components to loose sound electrical contact with the motherboard. All those could lead to what you describe. Pulling out components and resetting them might fix the issue. Best bet is to give your pc a physical and then start looking at software. Just my 2 cents course I'm a pc tech so ya know. :)

    Also, windows should be spitting out a stop code in the system Event log.

    All that passes I guess posting a log from the game might help someone help you further.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    Strange conclusion to jump to, considering the history of Space Engineers bugs. No sign of memory or overheat, and it was a hard crash to reboot, so no logs of the event as far as I can tell. Also, I haven't had it again since those 3 now. For consideration, the crashes also seemed to happen when I alt-tabbed as well. Additionally, my SE is using WAY more memory than I would have thought it should be. 10GB, which I haven't seen since the memory leak previously, as well a lot of people seem to be having noteworthy performance issues. So (shrugs). Windows also doesn't always spit out an error code if it crashes, only if it BSoD. Windows has to play nice for that, and usually it doesn't. Also, if those issues existed aside from the game, I'd have noticed this issue previously with other games and applications. That aside if it were a heat issue, my PC would have gone into protect mode, not just rebooted. Though, hypothetically there is situations that could result in that response, but is a bit too coincidental to the SE update and I can't reproduce the behavior now.

    All that said, it could have been a combination of programs doing something they shouldn't have, but the ONLY time in months I've had that kind of crash, was when SE was up (though YouTube has derped my PC a few times too).
     
  4. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    824
    What @Arcwolf mentioned sounds likely, but if you're on Windows 10, it could also be the silly forced/automated updates messing with the system while you were playing SE.

    While it's rare, I've had some weird things happen when the updates kick in (usually when I'm using the computer). The most common one being that my start bar refusing to work or completely disappears, but also things like programs complaining about missing files/services or crashing, or Windows BSOD'ing itself before the updates are done.

    To top that off, it happens on all Win10 computers in our house. It seems it hates being in use while doing updates, but doesn't give two turds whether you were actually working when it starts the updates. Nothing is more annoying than walking away for 5 minutes to grab a drink, only to come back and see the windows login screen again because the updates rebooted it!

    If you're not on Win 10, ignore the above. :p
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    Not strange, logical. Issues with memory can be perplexing... transient even if you have heating / oxidation. I get it though, no one wants to think hardware issue because that costs money and thats not cool. But you and I both know that space engineers uses an inordinate amount of memory a fact you have admitted here. If you do in fact have a bad memory module it could be that the bad spot is far up toward the end of the memory cells. Maybe in the last 2gb or 3gb of your second 8gb stick. If that's the case and if you have 16gb of ram your pc then wont show any signs until you hit 10gb or higher even on any software. You simply wouldnt hit the bad spot. You are right there are many things it could be and I didnt rule out the game its self. But decades of experience has taught me to look for issues like this and well... to me it sounded like memory or at least that would be my first place to look.

    But its just my advice, your choice to take it or leave it. <shrugs> :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. flexx SE Asst. Producer Staff

    Messages:
    198
    Hey there! Thank you for reports. If you will encounter this issue again, please let us immediately know! And just one question, did this happened in same world every time? Or it did not matter at all.

    Thanks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    Didn't seem to matter what world it was, and seemed to happen when I was getting memory leakage (apparent memory leakage), like using an extreme amount of RAM or rolling over into virtual memory, which it shouldn't be. I haven't seen it since, though.
    --- Automerge ---
    @Arcwolf - Well no, I think it had little to do with the content of your message and how you came across (though I was not cognizant of it at the time). I have an unfortunate history of being treated like I am computer illiterate, or otherwise treated differently due to being a woman, and being in certain online circles. So I am a bit sensitive to how people talk to me. I am a military veteran with fair expertise with advanced computing, and I had already checked beforehand, and I only posted after I had it happened multiple times under similar conditions. Though as a potentially relevant side note, Flashplayer has been buggy lately, and I usually have a browser up.

    Your post came off as being an iota condescending. I understand you were trying to be helpful, and maybe I was just in a bad mood when I read it, but I took it the wrong way. Mind you, there "COULD" be memory issues on my PC, or GPU issues yet undiscovered, there is never a zero percent chance of that being the case (but that's the first thing I check for signs of from experience). You don't know me well enough to have known any of that in advance, but maybe that's where you shouldn't just assume... I appreciate the gesture, but the way you went about it rubbed me the wrong way, so that's why I responded how I did.

    @Syncaidus - I checked for that as well, and there was nothing apparent running in the background using up resources that would explain what happened to any degree that I can see (Outside of SE acting strange). Also, Windows 10 is notorious for doing dumb things after patching, and otherwise not giving obvious error or cause for why it freaked the hell out. And as I mentioned, I was getting memory leaks too. But, I updated my graphics drivers the other day because the update was crashing them, then the next day the game was leaking, and crashing to reboot. But then later in the afternoon I got a Flashplayer update push notification, and did that and didn't see it again.

    Is times like this I wish to be considerably more omniscient than I am, so I could just know what it was and fix it straight away. Because there is nothing more annoying than having to deal with your system crashing for no explicable reason. Because it seems like there was a combination of reasons why at that particular moment my PC decided to be a pain in the arse, and with considerable possible factors it's impossible to know which. Though, luckily, the health of my hardware does not seem to be an issue (and I couldn't afford it if it was). At this point, I'm chalking it up to Windows 10 being Windows 10, as well as SE being an intensive application.

    YAY WINDOWS 10 (obvious sarcasm is obvious)!
     
  8. Pharap Apprentice Engineer

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    175
    Normally I wouldn't intervene but I feel the need to say that it didn't sound that way to me.
    I thought @Arcwolf's suggestion sounded friendly, helpful and logical.

    Also a number of people who report bugs aren't necissarily well versed in how computers work, so it sometimes pays to assume inexperience.
    In most cases it's easier for a person who knows about computers to say "actually I've tried that" than it is for a person who doesn't know about computers to admit they don't know what the Windows event log is or how to do a memtest.
    (I've been in both situations before.)
     
  9. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

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    37
    No, I wasnt trying to be condescending at all, that didnt even cross my mind to be honest. Also, I didnt consider your gender until you mentioned it just above. I'm from the old school, I was genuinely trying to be helpful. But the internet has become such a toxic place that things like netiquette have become all but extinct so I guess I'm not surprised at the perceived tone. I tried to place myself in your shoes and I thought what help would I want. I felt that knowing about a potential hardware issue would be most helpful and therefor applied that to my response.

    Short of exploding a smiley farm all over my post not sure how to doll up what I said. :-/ But I guess thats why I typically lurk and not post anywhere anymore. Just too much hate online....

    Been browsing this forum for like year before I even bothered to create an account lol.

    Anyway, no harm no foul. Hope you figure out whats wrong so you can get back to engineering uninterrupted :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    113
    Put my pennies worth in. SE is crashing a lot for me aswell and its not my hardware its SE. Also its like 1 in 10 crashes forces a reboot. Cant have my external raid plugged in while im playing SE as its trashed it once already and it took 4 days to rebuild/recover it. My Universe is taking almost 17 gig of ram. Getting slow now might need to start a fresh one soon.
    Nothing specific seems to cause lockups/crashes, I could just turn round or place a block or jumpdrive somewhere and it locks up/crashes. Also after a crash SE has lost all prefs and ive gotta set it up again, sound, keyboard, graphics, the lot all gone.
     
  11. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    @Arcwolf I had gathered that, and that you were trying to be helpful. Also, it's hard to tell where commentary involves or is in reference to one's gender or not, unless it's explicitly stated (and it often isn't unless they're intentionally trying to troll you). If you hadn't gathered, I've recently come up against this. As well, I have my reasons for not hiding it behind avatar pictures or screen names, but that probably isn't relevant in this case. Mind you, KSH forums seems considerably better than most places in that way, hopefully representative of the character of it's community. The internet is an often amazing, quixotic, and infuriating place, sometimes simultaneously. :3

    As far as SE goes, I have no idea what caused the error aside from general memory allocation errors, perhaps occurring due to multiple active applications. Also, most forums said about what you said when searching those keywords "computer always reboots while playing a game". What most of them don't explain relates to consistent crashes to reboot with multiple game-type applications, and not so much to a specific application under highly similar conditions. And the lack of my ability to reproduce the issue, indicates it may have been conditional to a specific state that existed only in those instances, but not when attempting later.

    And I only said what I did, because I felt you were trying to be respectful and helpful, and felt you had earned at least an explanation why I became defensive (once I had also realized that I was being so). Which was because you started with dismissal of my opinion/stated conclusion for the bug which I felt was more than sufficiently plausible without counter-evidence, followed by a perceived implicit assumption of my capability (or lack thereof) to correctly troubleshoot and identify the error, then coupled with a potentially unnecessary authoritative statement.

    That said, I can understand the occasional appeal of mentioning your expertise to reinforce your position on forums online, though usually it doesn't go quite how most people think it will, and almost never changes people's opinions (having personal experience with the same). In my experience, it's best to talk to people as if they are on the same level as you, even if they are not. And I'll apologize on my behalf if my experiences online, coupled with my mood or physical state at the time caused me to have that perception at all (which I can't determine with any certainty). As admittedly, there are times I'm already a bit worn down, and that no doubt affects perception.

    @CaD I have that issue everytime I have to force a reboot/force close the game as well (resetting all my preferences). Once it also corrupted my worldsaves, unfortunately. As well, I've had the game freeze so hard I had to force reboots as well.

    @Pharap That is also understandable, and plausible. But, it's fair to say that making assumptions of that condition of people might ruffle some people a little bit, even if they're usually not prone to those reactions. Everyone has bad days, or situations under which they may take a statement differently. :3 All in all, I wouldn't have even said anything if I felt Arc was being generally rude or trolling me. For me, I value both giving and receiving feedback (even if I'm not any better at receiving it than anyone else is). You can't resolve a problem or conflict if you don't first know it exists.
     
  12. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

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    37
    I appreciate your candor. The nuance of face to face conversation is often lost on forums so, as well intentioned as I was I also apologize for how I may have came off in my initial and subsequent responses. I may have been a bit over aggressive in my attempt to qualify myself as being knowledgeable.

    That said, to the issue you have with crashing, short of knowing what all you've tried I will give you a story about a experience I had just a month ago.

    My main gaming system was becoming increasingly unstable, specifically when space engineers was running but not only. Hard reboots, system lockups you know the drill. I initially was suspecting a memory issue but then noticed a hard drive was acting up and focused on that. Several Hard Drive Sentinel tests later the drive just wouldnt cooperate but instead seemed to be randomly acting up. SMART said Weak sectors, spin retry issues then it would clear up and SMART was 100% ok. Just strange... Didnt even consider the PSU because I got one of those monster 1kw jobs and broke my own rule to never think something is just too premium to go bad lol.

    But other drives would start to act up and mostly during high load situations like the tests or space engineers... or my video card was topped out, my processor under high load or several drives assessing data. So anyway, long story short, I narrowed it down to a weak and failing power supply. It only happened to be weak though when things started to get hot so to speak. Under idle load or when the system was relatively cool but under load it was fine and my psu tester spit out passing voltages. Get it warm, start a nice hour session of space engineers and bad things happened. 1 new power supply later and I'm back to solid as a rock performance.

    You've mentioned a lot of strange crashes in your previous posts and not at all saying thats what it is though, just giving ideas or things to consider?

    I've had computers come in to the shop like this and had to bench them for a few days to narrow it down. Could be anything, drivers maybe or like one system I had it ended up being a bad south bridge. Symptoms were the computer would randomly lockup or reboot if anything attempted to use the sound card and network card at the same time like an IRQ conflict. I just RMA'd the board back to ASUS. Only found out for sure it was the south bridge when the exact same board came back from asus with a brand new south bridge.

    I guess I'm rambling... be persistent you'll figure it out :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    And thank you, and thank you for yours as well. I took you as being an intelligent enough person, otherwise I might have reacted very differently. And is okies, we can all be guilty of it, even if not especially me being a veteran (military training and all that jazz). But, is good to remember how easily we can be offended, and as a result "Dig In" where we should be re-examining (as I know I'm guilty of this on many occasions). Being tired or in pain will do that more often than I'll admit.

    And as far as my PC goes, my PSU is about a mean of 100- 75w over based on power budget tests (This PSU was replaced 2 years ago when I upgraded GPU). However, I do know with fair certainty after multiple reinstalls of this HDD, it seems to start to have issues once it starts reaching the 60 - 70% full state (even with 100gb system partition). I know with fair certainty that my GPU and RAM are stable, given testing, and just a general feel test when I poke them. But I'm pretty certain my HDD has some issues minor issues, but it is otherwise adequately functional. I've reinstalled it 3 times in 5 years. When it gets full, I can delete some stuff to stave off the load problems, however it seems to always end up being better if I just reformat and restart it eventually. Also, I have defrag do a run every 4 months or so? I know some suggest more often, but I've never seen a notable performance reason why I should.

    Though, I haven't and won't do it again soon unless it either gets worse, or I can upgrade to an M.2 for the OS, with this drive as the storage. But I may not have spare for that until Xmas. But so far, all of the tests show that my HDD passes, but sometimes it shows signs of minor errors, and does not appear degenerative at this point (beyond expected degradation over time). So a similarity there to what you described. That said, I'm using default air cooling, and have never seen an temp warnings. I suppose there is also a possibility that it only gets hot in the HDD due to sticktion (or however you spell it). Also, it could be an issue with how Windows 10 Uses and allocates memory as well, due to the fact that there are problems where Windows 10 will sometimes utilize an alarmingly high amount of disk bandwidth outside of any visible apps or operations running in task manager. I've had to fix this Win 10 Disk usage issue a bunch of times, and a recent update did reset whatever fixes I seemed to have put in place. I may have to go look up that fix again. I have several friends who have the same issue with Window 10.

    3 months ago or so, it seemed like a bunch of my settings went back to their previous settings, for no apparent reason but I haven't delved into it further yet. But yeah, that's my general diagnostic opinion of my PC. Though, I have cats, so I should clean it again soon since I have to do that more often than I would otherwise. >..> You should see the vacuum... Do it once a weekish, and there is still a ball of furr as big as my fist in there. LOL (gestures sulking) I lurves kittehs though, so is a worthwhile exchange. :3
     
  14. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

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    37
    Stiction hmm, how old is this hdd? I haven't heard about that in recent years as manufacturers have moved to more resilient lubricants. I once had an old hard drive do that though... 500mb quantum fireball I think. Give it a little love tap on the side with a screw driver handle start it right up. Thats not something I'd recommend though lol :D

    Seems you've narrowed it down pretty well. Windows 10, or HDD followed by maybe PSU. I used to have some software that would totally hammer a system ... stress test to see what would shake loose... cant remember the name now. Probably wouldnt work with win 10 anyway... Anyway, baring that, like Prime95, video card test like ATITool used to do and HDD Sentinal all running at once. Really work the computer out for a few hours to see what quits if anything. But thats maybe not something you want to do if you arent in the position to immediately fix a problem that might crop up :)

    Oh and I fully understand the kitteh issue. I was adopted by a 2yo lil' scamp. So, I have my pc set up with these nifty little sponge filters on all the air intakes. Every couple weeks I peal off a cat fur mat and toss it :) Keeps the inside of my system pretty spotless all things considered. I tell her, if you keep shedding like this I"m going to have enough to build another cat lol.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    About 4 or 5 I suppose now. Also @flexx I'm now having the game frequently freeze completely now that whatever changes I made are not rebooting my PC. I've tested my RAM and GPU, and HDD and I don't see any plausible reason for my game to freeze. It seems to consistently only happen if I leave the game idling, in a menu, while tabbed out for extended periods of time. It also seems to cause memory leakage when it sits in this state, like the game using 8gb of memory when I don't have a world or dedicated server up and processing. It is literally exclusively happening in menus, in addition to crashes to desktop when using menus at times. Sometimes it crashes to desktop, sometimes it freezes the background HUD color over my entire screen and I have to force reboot, so same result as if it were just forcing reboot on it's own.
    --- Automerge ---
    @Arcwolf I have a Western Digital 7200RPM 1TB drive from like 2013 or so... SO 4 years ish? And I've tested everything so far, but I haven't done a drive optimization yet because it takes a blinkin' long ass time and I keep forgetting to do it before I go to bed, since it ties the drive up. As far as the thingy, I changed some Nvidia settings, tested my card and RAM with a free Memtest, and all came out clean. And so far the freezes I'm having now, instead of full crash to reboots, so far has only been happening if I'm in a menu and leave it idling while I'm tabbed out for extended periods. I've reproduced it 3 times now (first was in Server List, then 2 times in a menu once in Dedicated Server, once in Clientside Multiplayer).

    One thing is consistent through out, SE Idle in the background, while actively using other applications in the background. It doesn't freeze every time I'm idle, but has happened numerous times (in addition to when I was trying to make it do it). So far is the only program that triggers this problem. It freezes the PC and my Audio/Video (or at least stops Spotify from playing), and then I have to force reboot it. Note: I'm using HDMI for Audio and Video, though I have a sound card for inputs. And that's just from changing Nvidia to Balanced from Performance (and other various driver/software updates). So I have no idea what the dealio is. Also uninstalled a bunch of games I'm never going to play to give myself another 80 - 100gb of free space.

    System:
    Intel i7 4770 Quad-Core CPU with Hyperthreading
    16gb of DDR3-1600 Ram
    GTX 960 GPU
    1tb WD 7200RPM HDD
    Is a Dell XPS 8700 with updated card and PSU.

    PSU and GPU are less than 2 years old.
    --- Automerge ---
    So... The freezes are just screen freezes. I can still use stuff that was running that wasn't going through the GPU, but audio and video output freezes solid. Also, add to the list of things causing screen freeze, was loading a worldsave when it froze this time. There is a weird "Load/Unload" thing going on where my memory bobs up and down as it's loading and unloading things from GPU memory for some reason.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  16. Arcwolf Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    Couple of things to try if you want to finish up ruling out windows / drivers.

    Do a clean reinstall of your graphics card drivers. An automated option is in the nvidia driver installer.

    Problems you mention could also be from a botched update or corrupt system file. Try running from an administrative command prompt sfc /scannow if windows reports an error it cant fix you should then run DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth from an administrative command prompt followed by sfc /scannow when the DISM completes. Those two should pretty much confirm health or restore your windows to health. Website that explains these steps. Sfc info is toward the bottom.

    Thats all I can think of... beyond that its in keens ballpark...
     
  17. I23I7 ME Tester

    Messages:
    3,827
    ^
    If GPU driver update does not work i am just getting ready to help out.
     
  18. CaD Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    113
    I started a new universe and it no longer crashes. I also started a new vanilla universe and thats ok to. So I've deleted all my old saves (boo hoo, saved a LOT of space tho) and all's well (so far). Just have to move with the times I guess.
     
  19. Reneta Scian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    127
    So, I think I have whittled down the problem I have been seeing, which confirmed some of my suspicions (Like Flash and Firefox issues), as well as a laundry list of other issues. The problem I am having with Space Engineers is a resource problem that isn't SE's fault as far as I can tell. In my particular case, especially with recent updates to Firefox, Adobe, its plugins and Win 10 updates, they're largely to blame for poor performance when playing SE. I'm having constant API issues with my web browsers and soft and hard freezes on it alone. The problem is, none of this shows up to any definitive degree, until you tax system resources with multiple resource intensive tasks.

    This conclusion was the result many hours of forum reads, self-help sites, Microsoft troubleshooting forums, and just weeks of poking the issue, as well as seeing other performance issues with specific applications that other people seem to be having issues with as well. It is my determination that the only way I could fix this issue would be to upgrade my entire system (barring Microsoft getting massively better at application resource management, and app integration, or an actually functional "Game Mode"). Hardware wise, I need an SSD and a fresh Windows 10 at a bare minimum, if not a whole new PC. I don't know how much more optimization will help.

    The problem, after all the tests I ran I couldn't anything that could explain the crashes other than documented issues with my OS and various application, and the combined age of my hardware. My drive was a wee bit fragmented, but I formatted it specifically to help with that problem last install. I spent a few hours over the course of a few days cleaning, scrubbing and defragging. The game is running better, with some of those tweaks. I moved the PC off the floor, and that helped a little too. I feel I've done about all I can to improve the performance and troubleshoot the system as is, without upgrading components (potentially my whole system) or reinstalling again (or both).

    It seems others are having similar issues with Win 10 and gaming, which have been breaking and freezing (even crash rebooting Windows 10) especially since Game Mode and the Creators Update. (I also already ran around that rigamarole). As well, Firefox is crashing and freezing on it's own due to plugin interplay. As well, a lot of forums were discussing problems involving memory related crashes with Win10 and games and applications in general, as well as the fact that even if you have 16GB of RAM the systems became unstable at about 12 - 14 GB of RAM usage. There was even a massive "F*** Skype" thread dedicated to all the issues it creates at times.

    I don't think "most" of these issues are necessarily a problem of the base game, vanilla Space Engineers, but are a culmination of Windows 10 issues, and how demanding Space Engineers can be unmasking them, ESPECIALLY when you mod it. And I don't know how much can be done about it. Honestly, I expected to find something that said "Oh, this is broke you should fix it". But nothing came up. I haven't played on the new update yet... Destiny 2 PC just came out. So I've been a wee bit distracted. I'm going to be extremely preoccupied for the next month, not due to Destiny 2 per se, but real life stuff and being out of town.

    Oh, I also have to add that I had to reinstall SE after the switching from Survival/CTG broke it on me. Seemed to make it work a little better as well. I'm kind of wishing I could just install the game 3 times, one for each beta thingy, so I don't have that issue though. As a summary, all the problems I am having are partly do to my PC specs, usage habits (like having lots of apps up, and lots of browser tabs), and Windows and other application updates causing tonnes of new issues of late (Win10 being the biggest one). My system is very stable, and I had some issues I overlooked before due to being minor, but nothing that rose to "WTF" status until this.

    That said, all the stuff I did helped, but didn't stop the problem completely, and I don't think much will at this point aside from the other things I mentioned.
    --- Automerge ---
    To add briefly and anecdotally, I went through tweaking a lot of Windows 10 stuff as well that cause game crashes too, so much that it almost made me literally nauseous. (flops over on bed, then boots up Destiny to blow off some steam) Nothing like blowing aliens faces off to relax after realizing that Microsoft is the literal devil, and that feature bloat helps PC manufacturers get filthy rich. Its almost like its Skynet, but rather than blowing up humanity its decided its much more effective and even profitable to enslave us in a much more invisible and insidious ways.

    Happy Halloween, and just remember that every time you play Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, or use any new Windows 10 feature, a little bit of your soul is eaten away (and a kitten dies, probably... Maybe... I'll have to search the forums for more information on that subject, as soon as I recover from the eyestrain of reading anything on Windows Forums). :D:p;):):D
     
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