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!About AI for Space Engineers!

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Tufst1.1, Jan 23, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Tufst1.1 Trainee Engineer

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    So I found out today that Marek Rosa who is the founder and CEO of Keen Software (If you didn't know already) said that the team has no plans on adding AI/npcs into the game. Link to interview>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0obKzL755s . At 16:18 when asked about what challenges/dangers the player would be facing he said "we may add something like solar wind or asteroid or metal showers sometime in the future, right now there are no actual plans for adding npc or ai we'll just add multiplayer and we'll see where the game goes, because adding ai for this kind of game can be really challenging.Like I can not imagine ai building ships, and doing stuff with them." The one thing I thought about AI at this moment is they don’t have to build their own unique, and dynamic ships and use them. Now I think that having solar storms, and asteroid storms is good, but there needs to be something more. As quite a bit of people have suggested we could have AI inhabit premade/generic ships, and stations that randomly spawn around. Make it so every so often you get hostile ai that spawn into an area around the player’s ship, or station, and provide a threat to the player. Attacking them and trying to destroy their stuff. The reason we need this is because players need something to be there that is trying to go after them at times. If we are just stuck there in your ship or space station having solar storms, and asteroid showers every so often then its not going to be as much fun as going out exploring and searching for abandon ships and, stations with hostile ai in them guarding things ya could use. Also guns and weapons will be quite useless in singleplayer if all we got coming at us is solar wind, and asteroids. Now I know there are gonna be some who say if you want to fight against something then play multiplayer. Well first off I think multiplayer is good so far starting off, but most players who go and play multiplayer want to be able to win against an enemy (if they are fighting), and no matter how good you are you are always gonna find that one person who is better than you and beats your ass. Thats where ai come into play. AI are good if want something to go up against that is going to give you a challenge but not completely destroy you in every way. And even then if there are ai you, and your friends can go up against them for fun. What I mean about that is its not going to take away from the multiplayer but add to it. Anyways this post has been going on for long enough. I hope you lads agree, and that Keen Software notices that we need to have some sort of hostile ai.
     
  2. Slimecole Trainee Engineer

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    I think there should be AI's yes, It adds to the fun of the game, and guns and artillery are pointless in Singleplayer besides clearing debris in your way and that's it. No challenge really. I think AI's could really add something fun and good to Space Engineers.
     
  3. OracleTX Apprentice Engineer

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    I understood what the developer said about making an AI that creates ships would be really tough. I think an AI that can fight and such is easy, but making an AI that builds would be rough. Here are a few ideas for how the AI could have ships without it being able to dynamically create them.

    - Standard AI ships created by the developers - There wouldn't need to be too many of them, but then at least the AI would have something to fly.
    - The AI does not use standard ships at all - If the AI is space aliens, the aliens could be ship-size organisms. Again, the developers would have to build these. There is a possibility to create an algorithm to make the organisms "grow" rather than be static, which could be much simpler than using the existing ship building system.
    - The AI steals the player's ships - The AI opponents are people/robots/whatever that will try to take over control of the player's ships. There may need to be another mechanism for the AIs to fly the ships than finding the cockpit.
    - The AI copies the player's ships - There would probably need to be a few default ships, but the AI could scan one of the player's ships, then duplicate it and use it against them. This could be extremely annoying, so maybe just specific rare AI units could do this?
    - The AI ships are an aggregation of ships that other people created - Spore did something similar where you can create a creature and share it, then all players of Spore might see that creature show up in their game world.
     
  4. freshmango55 Apprentice Engineer

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    I liked that system in spore where other players creations would show up in the game world. I remember encountering some guys version of the Covenant from halo in that game lol.
     
  5. DutchVictim Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah, i think that could actually work. I honestly don't expect an AI to come up with a brilliant fighter design itself, so why don't you let them import designs from other players? For me, it was a pleasant suprise to see recognizable icons from other games in Spore, who were created by other players. I think with a bit of progamming that this could easily work out.
     
  6. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    2,131
    AI that build, assuming they use a human model (A slightly different suit design to the engineer) shouldn't be too hard (Won't require extra animations or entirely new designs). They simply need to start on a random Space Station design with the same startup machines that we get now in the default survival map.
    Dedicating their first role to mining resources either by hand or with a basic mining ship, processing the items on return and storing them in storage containers. After which, the AI selects a pre-designed blueprint from its Blueprint Library and checks all connected Storage Containers for the required resources, then builds said ship. Perhaps determining the ship before starting, with the option to expand the station as well, which could mark a "level-up" event on that specific base, spawning another NPC or two to assist in mining/fighting (Spawns determined by difficulty setting?) and re-prioritising ship designs for higher resource cost for a stronger ship.

    As for variability of ship designs in the AI's Blueprint Library, a simple competition by the devs for players to submit ship designs following strict rules for different tiers of ships/stations would work for that. At least to start off, with the devs patrolling the steam workshops for other good ideas that might pop up at a later date. (e.g. Tier 2 small offensive ship: 1 Cockpit, 2 gatling guns, 8 small thrusters, 2 small reactors, 1 gyroscope, 3 landing gears, 2 reflector lights, 1 medium storage container, 6 conveyor modules and 19-27 light armor blocks.)
    With a seperate design for space stations from which the AIs are based and build their ships based on connected storage containers' resources, with additional AI characters spawned depending on ships built and station upgrades.
     
  7. Tufst1.1 Trainee Engineer

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    That's a pretty good idea. :D
     
  8. Tufst1.1 Trainee Engineer

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    Yeah I think that could work too. The one thing though that the devs have wrong is thinking ai need to make their own unique ships. :p Mostly because that is basically impossible.
     
  9. Azan Trainee Engineer

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    Easiest implementation would be spawning generic pre made small ships as these require no actual NPC's and would mainly be a coding change.

    You could program them to have some basic attack moves and have a simple object avoidance algorithm as well. They likely wouldn't need any sophisticated pathing algorithms or anything.

    Later on you could have NPC's operating big ships and stations in the same way but be limited to only moving around on that object (so they can't leave the ship). That would mean you can path using just a single voxel system rather than the complex problem of pathing between different voxel systems.
     
  10. freshmango55 Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah, the dev team has just approached this topic the wrong way.
     
  11. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Unpiloted hostile ships from Blueprints would indeed be better to start off, while preserving the current playerbase until more permanent solutions show themselves.
    It could be possible to have both at the same time. Generic, Tier 1 hostile small ships that patrol areas, and sophisticated AI engineers that do mining and construction of large hostile ships for the long-term challenge.
     
  12. lucadena Apprentice Engineer

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    Great idea, seriously.
     
  13. Oselotti Junior Engineer

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    Ugly big red is perfect pirate ship. There could be pirate pilot sitting on and some hostile npc astronauts on board. At first they could just fly around and if they see player they start shooting. Ship shoots all non pirate structures and hostile astronauts shoots players. Much later there could be also some other acts they can do like hacking doors perhaps.
     
  14. radam Senior Engineer

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    Making point and shoot turrets wouldnt be that hard. Specially with those indoor turrets.

    Flying a ship in 3d is something else. Maybe just a predetermined flight path with the ship turning its turrets towards any nearby targets. possibly just astronauts, cockpits and weapons.
     
  15. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Hostile AI ships should only target player-piloted vehicles/players inside a gravity field (station).
    Otherwise we'd lose all our structures every time we log off on a server, since it seems that all space continues to be loaded even after logout, so pirates would destroy our ships and stations while we're not on.

    Also, the Default Red Ship is a terrible ship. It's poorly balanced, has the worst views and has no room for a supplied turret anywhere. The blue ship is better, or at the very least some new one(s) designed for combat.
     
  16. whistler118 Apprentice Engineer

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    AI don't need to be amazing they just need to be there. Look at millionaire mod for minecraft. They don't really do anything apart from slowly create a pre-determined city plan. You can have that for space engineers. They slowly build a space station and perhaps a couple of small pre designed fighters. Nothing too complicated but the real value of this to the player is that they can defend a settlement or attack it, trade with it or relocate it. It doesnt need to do anything awesome it just needs to be their and do limited things to broaden the scope of the mulitplayer survival experience.
     
  17. moroder Apprentice Engineer

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    As much as I would like NPCs the logic makes sense. I suspect that (apart from just listening to the majority opinion of SE players) they have closely studied how Minecraft grew to such epic proportions, and NPCs were not a factor in that. Apart from that, I suspect AI is harder to do in a fully open-ended construction game than in more constrained games.

    Marek isn't the smoothest conversationalist, BTW ;-)
     
  18. freshmango55 Apprentice Engineer

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    Minecraft is a hack and slash construction game this is a space sim construction game, NPC antagonists will thrive more in this environment. I would like to see the AI if they decide to make it, done so well you won't be able to tell the difference between a player and a NPC on servers.
     
  19. lucadena Apprentice Engineer

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    As I said, AI is already implemented.
    From VRAGE 2 (game engine description)
    " Artificial Intelligence - path-finding in non-static environment, behaviors, grouping, etc."

    go read it at http://www.keenswh.com/vrage.html
     
  20. freshmango55 Apprentice Engineer

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    You realize Marek said he isn't implementing AI, doesn't matter if it's in the engine or not.
     
  21. lucadena Apprentice Engineer

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    I do, but if we keep asking it, they will listen to us. Or end like with mechwarrior online.

    "If you want a look at how enraged a community of dedicated and passionate fans can get, the community around Mechwarrior Online and the rage it’s currently feeling is a good place to start.
    http://www.gamefront.com/mechwarrior-online-forum-ragesplosion/
    Take anything with a grain of salt as there is heavy agitation going on and some People switched to "Vendetta-Mode", but this article is pretty spot on how PGI managed to upset a huge number of their most loyal Players.
    It does not even mention the ECM disaster and the extreme New Player unfriendliness.
    PGI has an interesting time atm..."
     
  22. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    The more people that take up arms against the developer's no-AI/NPC, the more likely they'll be forced to change their plans. Like what happened with the Magnetic Landing Gears: It wasn't planned, but all the complaints and suggestions made them redesign the landing gear to be magnetic during a time when there were plenty of other important bugs to fix.
    At least this time, they won't need to change an existing object ASAP since it's only a planned feature and not an existing one.
     
  23. Xitost Trainee Engineer

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    I think there should be AI in the game but you should be able to pick if they are in your game or not, kinda like Minecraft's peaceful mode.
     
  24. GDFKingTigerTank Apprentice Engineer

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    So to clarify, you mean perhaps creative mode = no NPCs / AI vessels and then manual / survival mode they're active? I think that's a fair suggestion.
     
  25. Chen1201 Trainee Engineer

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    If anyone has ever played starmade then you know that the NPCs in that game are completely fine and if they could build something like that in space engineers it would be perfect.
    all you need is to make a few classes of NPCs and point them in the direction of players and we are good.
     
  26. Tufst1.1 Trainee Engineer

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    CDFKingTigerTank. I think what xitost is saying is have it so in both manual, and creative you can have a mode/difficulty to toggle AI on, and off.
     
  27. paswert Junior Engineer

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    So target practice?

    Also pirates could always modify it with a ram or something like that, I would also think that there could be a database of parts that the AI NPCs use to make their ships by using parts made which represent the different parts of a ship that the players could make new parts for.
     
  28. Master Trainee Engineer

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    "...Marek Rosa who is the founder and CEO of Keen Software (If you didn't know already) said that the team has no plans on adding AI/npcs into the game."

    (sarcastically) Heh, Thats funny.


    But really, if this game plans to have any single player, There will have to be AI.

    Thing is, It Does not have to be amazing, ground-breaking space sim AI. Just preset like 4 different ships that will fly around and attack you and make like one space station design complete with turrets and ships that will attack you of you get close to it. Thats all. Not really that hard. Then if youre just super lazy, leave it up to modder to add the more difficult AI ships stuff in. Or you can use the money that people
    paid you and hire someone who knows how to make AI. Done.
     
  29. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

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    Disappointed about the AI. But I'll keep playing. But now I have to wonder. What are the plans with single player with that in mind? Doesn't this make you wonder? Intriguing.
     
  30. Xitost Trainee Engineer

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    I did mean that tufst
     
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