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About Inertial Dampeners Change

Discussion in 'Balancing' started by Minakilase, Oct 23, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Minakilase Trainee Engineer

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    Hi everyone!

    With the latest update, inertial dampeners' behavior has been modified. It is also stated that small ships have still 5x power for dampeners to make them more agile compared to large ships. I think the same modification should be applied to the large ships as well since this new change makes large ships way too sluggish. It takes a long time to make a turn, for example. This is my opinion. What's yours?
    Thanks.
     
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  2. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,966
    That there's too many threads about this in the General Discussion board and not enough in the Feedback board.
     
  3. Malware Master Engineer

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    My opinion is, as always, that the 1/1 ratio is what I've wanted since I started playing this game. Granted, I'd like a slight power buff to the thrusters but for me this is a big step in the right direction.

    Also:
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Cruzz999 Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree with LordDevious. The thrusters currently behave the way you would expect thrusters to behave. No extra power is used, and no amount of thrust is locked away from the players intentional use. The fact that the small ships retained half their inertial dampener boost is something I hope a mod will remove very soon.
     
  5. jwattsn Trainee Engineer

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    So far I do not like the behavior of the new inertial dampeners setting. Don’t get me wrong they are very realistic now, but I would prefer easy controls with realism in mind.

    The reason I like the overpowered inertial dampeners was also because it allowed me to put less thrusters on the front of the ship giving it a cleaner look too.

    But I also agree with LordDevious last part of the statement that a power buff to the classic thrusters in critical. Large thruster are useless right now I’m shooting past (or into full speed) every point I’m trying to arrive at. I know they are trying to limit the classic thruster in atmosphere but maybe reduce there effeteness when in a certain proximity to a planet.
     
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  6. Masked Death Apprentice Engineer

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    315
    I haven't tested this yet, but I always wanted it. I kinda disliked how using the automatic brakes would magically generate extra thrust. For some reason I found it literally annoying that there was power locked away from the pilot that only could be sued by the thruster.
     
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  7. Fercko Trainee Engineer

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    I like the new changes. I think most people don't like it because it will screw up there ship design, but realistically a 11 milion ton ship should not stop in 10s from a traveling speed of 104m/s. Anyway there are many modded overpower thrusters put one of them on your ship problem solved :). But to easy everyone, there should be a block called Inertial dampener override, that can enable the player to override thruster max output but using it for prolonged time should cause damage to thrusters. This would be a good compromise :) and realistic.
     
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  8. Minakilase Trainee Engineer

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    Fercko and jwattsn have very good ideas. Inertial dampeners should be adjustable. Then each player can make the desired changes in their ships. Yes, it is true that its more realistic this way, however, the lack of option to adjust might cause some goal-oriented designs to be discarded and might turn everyship into a sleazy satellite. Then we should all say bye to scouts, interceptors or bombers or any kind of combat maneuver requiring action. I think adjustablity is the key, then everyone is happy.
     
  9. Fercko Trainee Engineer

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    I think the devs are trying to make leaving a planet atmosphere a challenge. Just tried the Hydrogen thrusters, and i like them, only problem that i think it needs a little tweaking on the Hydrogen consumption, or bigger Hydro tank capacity. So far accelerating a 4.2 million kg ship whit 5 large hydrogen thrusters to max speed (104m/s) cost 25% Hydrogen tank capacity (i have 4 large tanks on the ship). So landing my ship on the planets is out of the question, and i like that its a challenge :). I will make some drones and with try and error find the right design before landing my self. Or i will gett stranded on a alien planet....Ark style :).
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
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  10. Galaxian Apprentice Engineer

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    191
    In case you haven't found it yet, it exists now.

    So far I'm pleased by the fact that a freighter weighing 29 million kg loaded actually flies like a freighter instead of a fighter. Maneuverability should come from design, if you have a slender design style like me, you should use thruster pods for retro thrust or turn the ship around to use primary thrust to slow yourself if you need to stop rapidly. One of the big things about this game was that design actually MEANS something for how your ship performs, the dampener ultrabuff that got removed pretty much spit in the face of that idea. Another thing to note with this is that I'm fairly sure one of the major reasons was for gameplay - The dampeners were already proven to be capable of nullifying planetary gravity 100% with ion drives with a single thruster, which is absolutely absurd. An abstract part of the game to make it easier shouldn't ever be powerful to actually negate a major feature of one of the larger things being added to the game (In this case, perhaps literally.) I'd actually have been fine if they had reduced large grid to what it was BEFORE, which was like...I think 1.5 or 2.5?

    As stands, there are already mods on the workshop to add back the 10x dampener I believe, which is found here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
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  11. jwattsn Trainee Engineer

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    5
    After playing more this weekend I have come back to clarify my thoughts, mostly because this is the first update I haven't enjoyed.

    The larger issues that I am running into is that with this change to inertial dampeners limits the creative design that many enjoy in this game. Because the ultimate design for the ships is a cube with equal thrust in all directions. I want to build interesting ships without having to worry about having thrust placement issues.

    Issue – Inertial dampeners / Hydrogen thrusters

    With the change to inertial dampeners there seems to be little to no use for the older thrusters because thrusters don’t output enough force to change directions while in motion. I am in the process of changing all of the maneuvering thrusters to hydrogen thrusters because I don’t want my ship to look like a flying thruster grid! Now it now takes 20 L-thrusters (as apposed to 2 L-thrusters) on one side to maneuver my modified mining hauler the way I would like.

    Now I will say 10x might be a little extreme but 5x or even 3x would be a nice setting at this time. After this update I found that in survival mode using large ships to engage other large ships is pointless! You just have to fly striate at or along side of them, take a beating and hope your front thrusters are not destroyed in the process, causing you to crash into your target. Which you may end up doing anyway!

    As I said before I know they are trying to limit the classic thruster in atmosphere but maybe reduce their effeteness when in a certain proximity to a planet may be a better path inseted of removing inertial dampeners thrust override.

    Issue - Hydrogen thruster’s piping and ice requirements. This is related to what I said earlier with having to use hydrogen for all maneuvering.

    I love piping for thrusters make since BUT piping takes up too much space especially for smaller large ships. Just a slight dislike, I can easily live with it and grow to like it over time but maybe a smaller tube or a wall block (Airtight) with tubes inside might be nice.

    Most critical of all, hydrogen thrusters need to be balanced for use better fuel usage, as you will need to mine tones of ice in order to maneuver property.

    I should also state that I do not use mods, (including the Kswh thruster mod) I’m strictly vanilla player for now. I may -MAY add mods in later after they are "done" but for now I'm trying to represent the vanilla player who dosen't want to mod.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  12. Mr Barbeque Trainee Engineer

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    11
    Change is inevitable, and isn't always good, but I think this one is.
     
  13. Ravz Eerk Trainee Engineer

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    In regards to the Inertial dampeners, I would like to see Gyroscopes take on the role of Inertial dampeners. In my opinion this would allow:

    1. Inertial dampeners to not be a magical thing that every ship has.
    2. A block that's already in the game to have more functionality.
    3. A cost vs value to the engineer, large ship Gyros are not cheap.
    4. Allow Us to build more complex ships with different roles. (Bad acceleration but good breaking ability etc.)
    5. A understandable(albeit not scientific) reason why a ship could stop faster then a thruster can accelerate.

    As an example if you had 1 gyro on the starting spawn ship it would give 1:2 stopping power. if you had 2 it would give you 1:2.5
    3 1:3
    4 1:3.25
    5 1:3.5

    The numbers are irrelevant and should be based on the mass of the gird etc. I am merely stating the concept that there should be a benefit to more gyros but with diminishing returns.

    Now I understand this is not scientifically accurate as a object in motion tends to stay in motion. But this is still a game and as mentioned I would like to see more design options that is suitable in conflict after all a optimal design being a cube should not win a fight simply because its a box that's real but not fun. Also this will be a larger issue down the road as most space battles will have the ships pointing at each other that means the front thrusters will take the blunt of the damage and will make combat a jousting match instead of a combat maneuver where you jockey for position.

    Any way that's just my opinion and something I would think was cool to see in the game.
     
  14. Robertak Trainee Engineer

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    91
    well.. you can't overcome 1G gravity with 5 large hydrogen thrusters on 4,2kt ship.. ;-) 1G gravity affects your ship with force of 41,2MN.. 5 large hydrogen thrusters will produce only 30MN of thrust.. so you are heavilly underpowered and you will crash during the attempt to land and not even move when attempting to take off.. ;-)
     
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  15. Toxic Trainee Engineer

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    2
    I really like the new dampeners system, 1 to 1 is how it should be, even for the small ships.
    It makes it more realistic and required players to think more when designing a ship, or even during combat situations.
     
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  16. Fercko Trainee Engineer

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    I know :). It was a test to see how much hydrogen is consumed with 5 hydrogen thrusters. I`m certain that i will crash a lot on to planets, cant wait :D.
     
  17. Gandur Trainee Engineer

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    To not start a new thread, I'd like to give feedback for the dampers here:

    The new behavior of the ship is awsome. It has really nice atmosphere is the big ship breaks slowly and smooth. After the FPS is back with 50km view distance is very great to flight with big ships.
    So nothing for "Stoßstangenfahrer" ;) Now you have to break early to not crash into your destination asteorid :eek:
    :pbjt:

    Vote also for 1:1 for small ships.
     
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  18. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    443
    1.5x dampening for large ships maybe is good.
    Or maybe a block or an upgrade module to make dampening force bigger, so you can build 1.5x, 2x, 2.5x, ... dampened thrusters, a thruster upgrade module that boost only the dampening force, stackable :)
     
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  19. Merandix Junior Engineer

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    519
    To be honest, I think a large part of this stems from using metres per second as a prime measurement of speed. Many people don't realise that at 104 m/s we basically have a freight train going at formula 1 car speeds. My 6400 tonne ship was, with a nice design still braking in about 40 seconds. That sounds slow. But that's still a deceleration of 2,6 metres per second per second. that's 0,265 G's off deceleration. And that's pretty decent for a ship that size. With the emergency hydrogen retro thrusters on, it was decelerating even quicker.

    Point is, we have to see our large ships more as ships and less as freakin' racin' rockets!!!

    And the most ideal design is NOT a cube with equal thrusters on each side. That's the most ideal design for a manoeuvrable craft that accelerates and decelerates equally in each direction. And even then there's plenty of practical caveats. For example, I've been told you don't WANT a fighter to be braking hard because braking paints a target on your cockpit for automated turrets.

    I still think that if I hit the brakes manually, it should brake as hard as it does when I pull my hands off the controls. In that sense, I'm glad to see ID-thrust go, and sad that small ships still have it. It's still fairly easy, even with ion thrusters, to make a small craft that exceeds 9,81 m/s of acceleration in ID thrust on the bottom, and then 'slide' your way off planet. You do get only 30% efficiency, but due to ID thrust, that still means your downward facing hovering thrusters are 1,5 times as powerful as when you would be firing them manually on 100%. So essentially, Ion thrusters have 150% of the thrust on a planet if they function as ID thruster. If you then just use them to hover, you can (slowly) inch your way out of the atmosphere. The first few km will be painfully slow, as you have to ascend in a fairly modest climb, but as gravity drops off, your thrusters are gaining power. This is still a big issue in my opinion.

    I'd prefer to see all thrusters get a little buff, and hydrogen thrusters to get a fairly large buff, and then to see all ID-thrust be at x1. I would like to have a range-finder though, which would make planning a deceleration manoeuvre a little easier ;) In fact, the most economic design is to have more gyro's, so your ship is a bit more nimble on it's own axes... You hardly need braking thrusters anyway. Just swing around, and brake with your main engines. Or a hybrid one; I usually point my ship about 22,5 degrees off course, so now both my front AND my side thrusters are slowing me down. If I then pitch up/down 22,5 degrees, I now have thrusters on three sides slowing me down.

    Besides, it's not like it's super hard. I literally fixed the Argentavis by adding just TWO large thrusters. It flew quite balanced after that.

    So no, I'd like ID-thrust modifiers to stay at 1. And in fact I'd like this to be true for small ships as well. I do believe we need a thrust improvement though, to compensate at least a little for the lost ID-thrust. Because I feel the large ship thrusters are balanced a bit too much towards ships 'as small as possible'. And not to, for example, the size Keen built its own ships. It's still a game, some people have issues with planning out thrust, and want the front-sides of their ships as clean as possible. So a little thrust boost to offset the loss of x10 ID-thrust seems reasonable.

    I feel 10 kt ships shouldn't be in the range of 'discouraged' by engine size. As the block size is pretty much geared towards that size. 2,5 metre blocks are pretty clunky. So to build something somewhat good looking, you quickly get up to that amount of mass.
     
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  20. Minakilase Trainee Engineer

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    Since the last time we talked about this, I think I have changed my mind, it is really better this way, and you know since the release of planets everything makes more sense now so YES. It is cool now :) So now I am hoping that they will fix another major bug, since the release of planets, I cannot start a game. It takes forever to load the game and finally crashes. (The game itself starts but I can't generate any world with planets.) I need to report that.
     
  21. Minakilase Trainee Engineer

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    jwattsn - You still have a point. It really limits the possibilities of different designs. Although I like the new way of gameplay, I still would advise an option to adjust dampeners... It would solve many problems reported by many players.
     
  22. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    443
    dampeners and ion thrusters need a boost please! let us tu mark a box option to choose de power of thrusters and dampeners please or a nerf to the inventory mass
     
  23. Sibz Apprentice Engineer

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    361
    I agree with this... now :p and to make small ships a bit more agile there should be a boost to small ship thrusters (both atmostheric and ion thrusters - I haven't tested hydrogen thrusters).
     
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