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Add Counterpush to Gravity Generators

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Legas, Sep 26, 2015.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Legas Trainee Engineer

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    51
    At some point, one has to acknowledge that gravity drive is a bug, not a feature, because:

    1) Realism: A body cannot accelerate by exerting force upon itself. It's physically impossible, that's like floating by pulling your own hair up.
    2) Gameplay: It's unbalanced that a million kg battlecruiser can reach max speed in seconds using negligible amounts of energy.

    The best solution for this is the inclusion of the counterpush effect. Whenever a grid with a gravity generator pulls/push something, that something should pull/push the gravity generator's grid back. Plus Mass Blocks should be unaffected by gravity generators on the same grid.

    The mod "Enhanced Gravity Generators" already does that, so I fail to see why Keen can't do it.

    It would also make gravity generators more physically appealing. Not only gravity drives would cease to function, but if you, for exemple, launch a torpedo using gravity + mass block, the ship will be pushed backwards by the torpedo, akin to recoil.

    It's a win-win situation, you make the game more realistic while enhancing the gameplay.

    It's, at the very least, amusing that we read the Newton's Third Law in the loading screen, only to find out that the gravity generator breaks the law so badly.

    If, for unseen gameplay reasons, there really must be a way to accelerate large ships fast without the use of thrusters, then add a speciallized block balanced to this end, a hyperdrive or whatever. And not keep a cheap exploit as a "feature". Yet I don't see any reason why a big large ship should be able to accelerate that fast.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. A_Person Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    58
    you could still make a gravity drive though just by putting another grid with AM blocks in the middle of your ship in a closed container

    EDIT: oops did a stupid :woot: clearly too tired to be posting anything physics related.
    Anything related to anything in fact :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  3. Legas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    False, Counterpush makes it so the resultant force will be zero.
    The gravity generator push the mass blocks with a force "F".
    Mass blocks push the gravity generator with a force "-F"

    Download "Enhanced Gravity Generator" mod if you don't understand or don't belive me.
     
  4. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Not with counterpush as the OP is suggesting. The mass blocks would be pushed alright, but the gravity generator would be pushed the other way resulting in zero movement, or worse the ship ripping itself apart.

    Its a cheap exploit that allows capital ships to accelerate faster than a fighter. The longer is is left in the game the greater the amount of whining when it is fixed, I think keen has left it far too long.
     
  5. mikeloeven Senior Engineer

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    1,162
    The issue is that gravity drives are too well established at this point and frankly the majority of creative players use them to great effect.

    [rant]
    [/rant]

    If you dont like them dont build them or apply a mod to your server that disables them but dont you dare ruin it for the rest of us GOOD DAY SIR !!

    on a side note instead of asking for gravity drives to be removed why not just add a world setting to turn the effect on and off this would keep everyone happy
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  6. Legas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    The funny part is that at the end of my OP I said:

    Which obviously hints that I care more for gameplay than I do for realism.

    However gravity drive is a glitch/exploit/bug. And is unbalanced.
    If people really want capital ships moving fast, Keen must remove gravity drives, then add another block that does the same as gravity drives did but balanced to consume reasonable amounts of power (or have any other types of drawbacks, such as it could only be used a few seconds or must be recharged or whatever)

    Unlike you, I'll not settle for a bug.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    I'm not sure I understand. The OP's suggestion would not remove the usefulness of gravity generators, which would function more or less as they did before until you get to the involvement of large masses, where recoil would become noticeable.
     
  8. Legas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    In his blind hatred, he probabily didn't even read what I wrote. He probabily saw I wanted gravity drives removed and proceeded to rant.

    You, however, seem to get the gist of it. Gravity generators will still retain their usefulness to:
    1) Provide ambient gravity
    2) Make wheeled vehicles possible
    3) Make gravity cannons possible

    Only the gravity drive won't be usable anymore.
     
  9. A_Person Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    58
    Actually going back to where I said about 2 different grids (yes I realise that wasn't right) with a timer or programmable block, a piston and a bit of nifty engineering, you COULD still make a gravity drive, albeit less effective, since if you can make the piston retract at the rate the ship was accelerating, you could 'pull' your ship (and the other grid) towards each other, (meaning the ship goes forwards towards the grid and the grid goes backwards towards the ship) but then the nifty part is once they've almost collided, the AM mass block is turned OFF and the piston extends back out again, pushing the mass block forwards a lot more than the ship is pushed backwards since it has much lower mass than the ship itself, then you turn the AM block back on again and repeat the process, Which will yield a net acceleration (which shouldn't work IRL), but since the AM block is turned on and off for the piston to re-extend, the acceleration would occur in batches and would thus be overall a lot slower (and a lot bigger) The only way you could actually avoid this is if gravity gens affected the ENTIRE SHIP'S MASS and AM blocks were removed (or were perma-on) but no-body except the (uber-realists) wants that . (And this time I don't think I did a stupid [hopefully]) hopefully the method I am saying is understandable.

    Also if it's already a mod then why not leave it as just that if grav drives have become fundamental to so many designs?
     
  10. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    Because vanilla should be "correct mode". Unbalanced and/or unintended things like the gravity drive, which people obviously enjoy using and we can't have removed completely, is what should be a mod.

    Gravity drive in itself isn't really unrealistic if you already have the power to manipulate gravity. It's the way it's portrayed in the game, with the requirement of a two-block combination, which makes it weird.
     
  11. Legas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    This design might be possible (only because pistons doesn't obey Newton's Third Law).
    But extremely impratical. So it wouldn't be an issue. For all intents and purposes, gravity drives would be dead.

    Edit: And I say "might be possible" because it's very likely pistons would just break/explode from the great forces involved.
    And "extremely impratical" because you would only get small amounts of acceleration every cycle, and pistons take a while to retract/extend even on max speed. Not to mention the volume this would occupy. It wouldn't be worth it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  12. Sliyther Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    10
    Well, i like the idea of what your saying. i really like player made weapons, recoil on those would be awesome.
    Would also like a single use warhead/thruster for cannon shells. the issue with the change mentioned, is what happens when someone, stops their ship in an asteroid to mine?.. they might find that their ship isn't where they left it. (while i would be fine with this, hell i would like it.) i feel like others might not. not sure if keen would want to take that risk.
    personally i would like gravity gens removed, and replaced with some kind of magnetized surface. As is, Its not really fun or realistic to me.
     
  13. Legas Trainee Engineer

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    51
    I don't understand. Why would the ship move on its own? And what does this have to do with gravity generator counterpush?
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    Yes they do. I just tried it.
     
  15. Legas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    51
    My bad. Actually the reason the design would work is not because pistons don't obey Newton's Law.
    It was because mass blocks can change their masses freely.

    That means a higher mass get pushed and a lower mass get pulled, resulting in movement.

    However, that changes nothing. This design is impratical, and pistons would just break anyway. It doesn't matter.
     
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