Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

An Impassioned plea to the developers.

Discussion in 'General' started by RayvenQ, Apr 20, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    Well, I'm going to go through the blog post and break it down.

    The past month and a bit we've diverged from those core principles, not this past year, the rest of the time, we just haven't gotten very much of, well, anything, it's not that it's diverged, it just hasn't gotten there yet.

    Exciting? Yes, we need it to be made that, fun, again, yes we need that. Streamlined? I'm going to have to disagree there. It's not particularly challenging, it just, like Space Engineers, a game that required a bit of time being put into it to get to grips with it. You know how we could make it easier for people to get to grips with it, without reducing it to the simplicity of Minecraft (as, in my opinion, it currently is) TUTORIALS. Right now there aren't any, but if there were, it'd be easier for players to get into, even with the old systems.

    Well, firstly we'd need more comprehensive building, crafting, harvesting and fighting mechanics, because, as said before, the game really isn't there yet. It's severely lacking in a lot of that, I mean, what was there, was pretty intuitive to begin with, hit tree with axe,get log hit log with axe (with right click, a way to make it more intuitive would be to have the wood shaping action be bound to left click not right click) get wood, bring wood to building site, hit with hammer. It's not that it's more difficult, it's just that it's a bit different with having to physically move your inventory around, as I've said, for small things, the things that are, even to experienced players, a pain in the ass to manage, the inventory is a godsend, but you really should have to manipulate larger items around you. That's a major part of the game.

    You'd still have to design the blueprints first. You know what also makes it streamlined and a bit mroe accessible? AREA BUILDING INVENTORY, that means that players don't have to have exactly everything they need to build in their inventory, they can just dump a lot of wood and stone in an area close to where they are building, and use that, as well as the more smaller stuff that they'd be able to carry in their inventory. It means, when the slot based inventory system gets lowered to reasonable amounts, that people don't have to keep going backwards and forwards for materials, they can just make a dumping area near their building. Again, I think you have to seperate AREA BUILDING INVENTORY and PLAYER AREA INVENTORY, the second one? Yeah thats fine to be removed, because it was added later on, it wasn't a core draw, AREA BUILDING INVENTORY however, is a draw of the game and has a VAST impact on the actual MECHANICS of the game, removing AREA BUILDING INVENTORY vastly reduces the needs for any mechanical stuff or even engineering soloutions, AREA BUILDING INVENTORY removal, combined with the ridiculous slot based system COMPLETELY NEGATES the need for ANY SORT OF ENGINEERING AT ALL.

    What frustrates people, in particular with Medieval Engineers, is than in about a year, they have had very little actually added to the game, not a whole lot of content, for a long time it's been ina bugfixing feature freeze, for no good reason, only being so because Space Engineers is. This game has suffered from a severe lack of content and that is what frustrates players and keeps them away.



    Talk to me? Talk to your community, listen to your community, I mean, the OP of this thread, has 31 agrees and/or likes, that's well over half the amount of people playing ME on a daily basis, a whole heck of a lot more if you discount the devs playing it. Talk and listen to the people who bought the game because they were excited for what the game was proposed to be.

    I can't talk about the changes to the updates, because it honestly doesn't concern me, and honestly, I don't care, because it's not frequency or stability that bothers me with this game.

    Fun? Yes, we want that, coherent? That too, Exciting? Yep and that, streamlined? It doesn't need to be, and I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. The system being the way it is isn't the cause for the lack of players, the cause for the lack of players is the complete lack of content that this game has suffered for about the past year, seriously, updates became a joke long ago back when there were several updates releasing nothing but roof tiles. Honestly, the way it's going, its trying to be like Minecraft, which it totally shouldn't, as the only thing above Minecraft that ME has is the graphics, that's it, Minecraft does everything else it does better, and stays true to its core.

    Well, it doesn't seem that way to players, especially when, features that made up the core game and were the core draw to the game, were removed or vastly altered,(the inventory system, removal of area building, changes to compound blocks), without even giving your community and players and people who bought the game ANY explanation why, except for this blog post thats come about a month too late and doesn't give people the answers they are wanting, nor even really asking them.[/quote]
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  2. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    I think this is main problem : http://www.keenswh.com/art-director--art-lead.html
    I assure you that we are working to find the right person to lead Medieval Engineers and help us scale up so we can continue to bring you quality, awesome, fun, streamlined games with big features.
    So one person may decide fate of ME world ( it sound like beginning for some fantasy story ;) ) Damn, why is Prague so far, sounds like perfect job for me :(

    Go back to roots of game is good idea, meybe physical interaction+realism is not 100% possible, but there are ways around it for example easy log, stone transport:
    2 or more wood logs on one place = 1 block ( without jumping, other bugs, atc... ) or when you place first log on stone/wood floor, they will start gether on 1x1x1 area. +allow use this materials in 3x3x3/5x5x5 for building, research, work on table, atc...
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Marek Rosa did write: Hardcore players will always have the option to do it themselves

    ( Meybe server/map lock for blueprints will be possible )
    Blueprints are good idea, so every one can help building, without misstakes like this:
    [​IMG]

    Im worried about this word: streamlined = I hope it dont mean: same/similar like other 100 survival games that will be release, or are released... ME can be beter.

    Im pleased be well acquainted with ME plans and one word for all is: Patience ;)
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Sofa Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    152
    While I think the ME community could use some rekindling with new features or previews thereof, I'm not one of those frothing-at-the-mouth Youtube commenters who accuses the game of being a "cash cow" just because Keen's not releasing a major content update every other week. Personally, I can stand waiting. I understand that these things take time, and that it's probably more complicated than we might make out. I got Space Engineers and a million other things to tide me over in the meantime. Plus, patience with Keen has paid off before (see: Planets in Space Engineers).

    But I think we can all agree: Dumbing the game down will not bolster the player base and may, in fact, drive off veteran players. If you're afraid the game has too steep a learning curve, implement some tutorials, or put things like stack-based inventory, area inventory, and instant blueprint-spawning in world options (I think there's an option for blueprints anyway; I'd check, but I'm not at home right now). The challenges the game poses in its current state (bugs aside) don't qualify as hardcore, in my opinion: They're what makes Medieval Engineers the unique, cleverness-demanding experience that it is. You don't need to make it Survival-Building-Sandbox Now Available on Steam Early Access no.21864 to attract a crowd. New and interesting features to make the game better fleshed out and unique would do that. But again, rabid Youtubers have a fit if they aren't implemented within a week of being mentioned, so maybe I'm not the best source of advice...
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  4. Hakon102 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    300
    far? You live in the Czech republic or?;) you speak the Czech language or? just do it! Move to Prag! Take this job, we need you!

    Joking aside, i full agree with RayvenQ.

    The game isn't played because of lack of content! Not "because of the core principles/ Gameplay".
    Only some examples here:
    -we haven't different ores implement until now (Iron, coal, silver, gold, copper). what's the reason?
    -We have no metallurgy (furnance) etc.
    -We have no Farming stuff, only hunting and collecting berries.
    -We have no production chains. (e.g. wheat --> flour+Water --> Bread)
    -We have only some different weapons. (add different kinds of weapons, like in SE (dagger, broadswort, longswort, Long Bow, Short Bow, shields etc. Take simple placeholder skins and replace -them after time.
    -We have no Armor/Clothing system.
    -We have no orderable? Ai. also townspeople, friendly Ai.
    etc. etc.

    I know, that Framework/Core stuff take time. And that keen try to implement Planets (I like this idea). And it's ok, that the dev's doing other stuff. (Stabilization, bugfixing).
    But, they should not be surprised that the count of players is low with a such big lack of content.
    The most players don't expect a high resolution skin for all different weapons/ Ore / stuff in the first iteration. Or a perfect balanced weapon system. They only want different thing's to play.

    Im not against a blueprint system for Siege weapons, building etc..But, like RayvenQ said it, You'd still have to design the blueprints first. And from where comes the resources to build up your blueprint? please not from your pocket inventory! It will destroy the whole game! e.g. i go to an enemy castle and i can suddenly pop up a huge siege machine only from my pocket inventory!!?? But, if we have a area builing inventory , you need a cart to transport the materials of the siege machine. This brings far more deep to the Gameplay and makes the Game logic, uniqe and interesting. (I dont want an other minecraft clone no.1156 there are enough such games on steam)

    greetings
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
  5. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    [/QUOTE]

    exactly that.... give us stuff to play with... give us reason to play... not make the game a graphical overhaul of minefart.
     
  6. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    Okay, so here's a couple of projects that I'm either currently working on or will be working on soon.

    1. I'm working on, an admittedly basic tutorial map, where you are guided through the steps of how to do everything BEFORE the slot based inventory was a thing, to show how, infact, it isn't difficult to pick up and understand the mechanics if you're not left to paddle in the deep end. I'll release this on the workshop, along with a picture guide and possibly a video guide, since, the game lacks even basic text panels for me to explain to players ingame what to do, and owing to the fact that the old mechanics aren't in anymore, so its not one that can be fully played, but as an example of what the old system could have had.

    2. I will be teaming up with @Stori3D Past Productions to make, basically, a showcase map, showing off different kinds of mechanics, based on the needs and allowances of the old system, such as area building and having to physically manipulate your stuff. We'll be making this as a living, explorable map to showcase what kinds of engineering can be done and used (although not neccesarily required) taking into account those limitations and style of how the game was. This may take a while, but we really want to demonstate how having the old features and limitations in really opened up the game for some fun engineering and how the removal of them eliminates a large portion of the need for that sort of engineering.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  7. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    Blueprints alone can look epic when you us some sticks,tooth picks, atc... so it will still look medieval and then start construct it from one side to another in similar style like SE. Blueprints can need X number of wood,stone,atc... so you will first build blueprint and after you complete blueprint, start normal building + enemy can destroy blueprints and see them.
    ( unrealistic is weight of finished blueprint, have to be light so it dont fall without realistin weight support. )

    for example:
    buildings: http://justpaste.it/3eh
    evil machina ( I didnt find catapult :( ): https://pixabay.com/cs/dřevěná-motorka-dřevěný-model-253554/
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Sofa Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    152
    Implementing it takes time, though, and a lot of folks seem to expect immediate gratification. What I think is more important is a direction, a plan. For example, Keen could come out and say "We're working on more in-depth survival mechanics", or "we're working to implement more ore types", or "we're working on new blocks". I think ME's current problem isn't just that there's not much to do, but that there's not much to look forward to. And while there's a good amount of tweaks to be done in the optimization and streamlining department, it seems like we're all of the opinion that altering the game's fundamental mechanics isn't the answer.

    ADDENDUM: "We're making the game easier" is not among the plan announcements that we'd be looking forward to, if this thread's existence is any indication.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    i understand that it takes time to implement features. but i dont believe that it takes more than a year to implement some of those features they al ready have code for, like ores and refining... so thats basicly what i meant by saying, dont make a graphical overhaul for minefart, because currently, its nothing more than that.
     
  10. Xanatos Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    81
    I have to agree wholeheartedly with everything RayvenQ has said.

    As a day-one backer, I have to say that the recent changes to the inventory system, logistics etc. have utterly killed my current interest in Medieval Engineers.
    The MASSIVE appeal to me was the major difference between it and Space Engineers; the lack of 'automatic' inventory and item carrying. In short: More Engineering!
    The systems in SE make sense in the environment and gameplay, but feel totally artificial in Medieval Engineers, and the immersion and realism are rapidly dying.

    I adored the hands-on logistics while trying to build tall structures, and just figuring out how to get all of that stone up to that new tower or buttress via crane, scaffold etc. was a real delight,
    and so completely different to what had been done to death in so many other 'survival/crafting/sandbox' games that it made the game worthy of a purchase for those systems alone.
    Their removal is nothing short of perplexing and frustrating for me, and my previous reasons for suggesting the game might appeal to friends are all but gone.
    I simply cannot in good conscience suggest to my gaming comrades that there is anything different, appealing or otherwise, about Medieval Engineers anymore since the changes.

    I can understand removing features for optimisation or progress reasons, but 'streamlining' the entire reason for the existence of a separate game is a very poor decision in my mind,
    and is a decision that has basically destroyed any hope I had for Medieval Engineers to evolve into the game I had one day hoped the initial designs proved it could be.
    The changes to the Manipulation Tool, Compound Blocks etc. along with the changes to resource collection, feel like a massive step backwards in defining this as a separate product from Space Engineers.

    If it was stated that we were going to eventually get a palette swap of Space Engineers' planetary gameplay with more basic tech, I'd have held off on a purchase until well on the way to v1.0.
    I have faith in you, Keen; you've delivered so far with Space Engineers. Please, PLEASE, don't keep streamlining what I'd always seen as the older brother of the two into a juvenile 'survival' game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. ZoqFot Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    25
    The blog post explained a few things but the word "streamlined" rings great big knells of concern. It a word that is supposed to sound good but usually means "we're ditching a load of stuff." Blueprints are fine but won't fundamentally affect the way we play the game, farming might, but the mention was brief, implying it was more of a conceptual plan as opposed to something being actively worked on.

    I can live with slots if it is useful while other systems are implemented. I may not like it but I can live with it. What worries me is that Keen are playing things pretty close to their chest right now. We're getting a few "Don't panic, it's gonna be great" messages but no real info on how. Aside from putting the maps onto an entire planet, we have no real information on what's in the pipeline. I think people might stress less if there was a bit of info on what's workied on. some "We're working on introducing a blueprint system, water is still proving to be problematic and we're having trouble getting minerals to seed in a proper vein but in the meantime here's some bugfixes and a new gate!" updates would go a long way towards allaying peoples concerns. Keen has obviously noticed the concern in the community but actual information is still a bit light on the ground.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    To be crystal clear. The core vision, presented to consumers, as reasons to buy the game over others were these 3 things

    Structural Integrity (Still there)
    Compound blocks (Nerfed now, to the point where you can't do a lot of stuff)
    Physicality of your Inventory (First having to manipulate your items and having NO inventory, not long after added area building, which is an extension of that, both now gone)

    So out of the 3 core concepts that sold the game and drew people to the game 1/3 has been nerfed to the point of sillyness, 1/3 has been practically removed, leaving just 1/3 left that is unchanged from the core concept. On to of that a complete lack of real , worthy additions to make players keep playing.

    Marek, if you are reading this, if the changes to the inventory system are reverted (even if it is simply a branch just so i can show you), back to how it was and we get one or both of the following things: Scenario Tools (like in SE) A fitting Medieval Equivilant of SE's LCD/Text Screens. Then I ,personally, will put the hours in and do the work to make a series of tutorials that you can then put in the game, that will be able to teach ANYONE how to play the game, with the old system, not only that but I will make it as top notch and as high quality as humanly possible, and you guys can have them and use them as ingame tutorials. Medieval Engineers way of doing things, is different, not harder, and I can prove it to you by making tutorials that would teach you all you need to know, in under an hour, 30-45 minutes max, if I had even the most basic tools, seriously, I could do it with Text Panels alone!

    I'm already going to be working with another member of the community to make a map that will demonstrate what posibilites and cool things Area Building and physically manipulating your items encourages you do to, not as a requirement, but much like welding ships in Space Engineers, as a way to make your life easier.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  13. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    HALELUJA AMEN. the truth has been spoken.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. waterlimon Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,499
    Hiding small block structures as "too complicated" under some 'streamlined' blueprint spawning system is going in the wrong direction for one simple reason:
    Using the structures is always going to be awkward and not very functional, because they have to be modular and designable/buildable by players from simple components.

    If you ignore the building aspect of small block contraptions by offering a simplified blueprint spawning mechanism, all youre left with is unpolished content for players to play with. If you want the game to be about using catapults and whatever, they have to be built-in features carefully polished by devs to make it a good experience. Not glitchy and laggy player-built blueprints.

    But from the start, the focus has been on players building these contraptions. Sure, they wont really work too well, and there will be issues, but being able to build them outweights that disadvantage. What they should do, is push players to get familiar with the building from the start, not treat it as some "advanced feature" that you cant even engage in during normal survival gameplay because its a waste of time when you can just throw in some blueprint with the press of a button (so then youd have to design them in creative mode and mess with workshop, which no regular player would ever bother with).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    so basicly you are on our side...
    with other words... Keengo back to the original plan. Not streamlibing it... Not making it easier, give more to play with... GIVE US TUTORIALS. And make it fun... Not click, load ammo, click, castle collapses...
    make it: Hey what happens if i make it this way, oh damn that thing exploded because *put some physics joke here*.
     
  16. waterlimon Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,499
    I dont think the game is going to be complicated enough to need tutorials. They just need some minimal polish and subtle hints (like broken carts and stuff around the map to act as examples for how to build one) to make things obvious even to new players.
    Like if youre staring at an incomplete block, show text that tells you how to finish it. And have keyboard shortcuts shown on screen when relevant (like needing to press "J" to place item freely), instead of just removing all features where they cant reduce it down to pointing at things with your mouse and clicking because players dont magically know the hidden keyboard shortcuts and get confused.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    Since Marek got confused when he tried to play it, plus the whole schtick of "streamlining" (making it simpler) tutorials would have gone a long way to help players with how this particular game playe, and showing that pre inventory changes, it wasn't all tht hard, just different.

    Honestly, like I said, If we got the inventory changes rolled back, along with SE style scenario tools, and text signs, I'd make a series of comprehensive tutorial missions thta I'd freely let them stick in the damn game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    thats exactly what i was aimimg at
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    so... its official... with the addition of drawbridges... im out... gonna uninstall the game.
    i had hope that it would turn out right... but with blocks that destroy the purpose of the game, i dont want to have it on my harddrive anymore.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    I'm out too.
    I feared what is happening now for a while and Marek just confirmed my fear.
    ME will become another Minecraft clone.
    I would never have buyed a minecraft clone and I wont let that one pass.
    I asked for a refund on steam and I'l put a negative review to warn people that the game they are offered in the store page is not what it's promised to be.

    Keen should change their store page to describe their new game concept instead.

    I'l keep lurking passively in that part of the forum until I see hope for me to like that game again.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. ZoqFot Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    25
    I don't hate the concept of the drawbridge block but there was already systems in place to build them and the castle map already had one you could use to build your own. Where's the mechanics? Edit the block so there is a winch and can only be operated from that point.
     
  22. Sofa Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    152
    Personally, I don't see the big deal with the addition of prefab blocks. Yeah, it's part of an unwelcome trend, but the flippings-out over potential removal of small blocks entirely seems... well, maybe a civil way to put it would be "unreasonably defeatist"?

    Like everyone else, I'm very disappointed with what they've done with inventory and area-building, and I'm not looking forward to future "streamlining". However, I figure folks like me who enjoy the engineering challenges (assuming the physics engine cooperates) can have servers that mod out the prefab blocks, or maybe push for an "Enable / Disable Prefabs" option in world settings.

    You fellas go ahead and stone me for this, I given't a f*ck.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  23. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    I'm going the way of Ed and Timotei, done with this game, done with trying to communicate to them on behalf of this community, with getting vague reassurances and told to wait, when the community as a whole has been clamoring for things for nearly a year.

    I'm done, I quit being the spokeperson or even player of this game. I gave it my best guys, but I've got too much going on in my life.
     
  24. Dobers. Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    I'm agree with you guys.

    I have to say I m playing survival only. NOT for survival gameplay but because I want to farm what I need to build.

    Here is my opinion:

    Prefab blocks are sh**. Blueprints could be a great idea ONLY if we need to make it before! (You make a door, you can save it on a blueprint).
    Making the game easy (or dumb) to attract some kids is a strategic error that will lead to kill the game.

    I think devs need to leave survival things to concentrate on ENGINEERING like the name of the game. And I dont know another game that has these engineering pretensions (there are a waaaaay too much survivals alpha/beta/games where you need to eat every hour or you die).
    Some things, like ropes and construction bugs (you know ... for exemple when you make a drawbridge without prefab), need a lot of work ... but nothing move on !

    I do not play this game anymore since updates bored me because going in the wrong direction and make me no pleasure to build.
    When the developers announced a bug fixing phase, I was very happy, but a few months later, the servers dont get better and construction is getting worse. I do not even speak of the inventory ...



    I keep an eye on nowaday updates, and I feel sad because I had (and I still have a bit) a lot of hope in this game.


    But it's really not too late, and the development can go BACK in the good way and I will keep an eye on news to wait a good update !!!!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,410
    @RayvenQ I understand your frustration completely. I have barely touched the game since it was made available on Steam because it felt like little more than Jenga Simulator. I've watched the updates weekly and I've gotten excited about mentions of additions, and sometimes let down when I re-realize the state of the game. Now it looks like they are backtracking on a lot of the game's core features. It seems like this affects the existing playerbase more than someone like me, who will be going into it with a fresh perspective when it becomes more complete. I cant help but to believe that they have a plan for all of this. I really hope that this game turns out to be great.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    • Funny Funny x 1
  27. Speshal_Snowman Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    175
    They have a plan for the game, and a vision, wait a couple months to see the direction the game is going :)
     
  28. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,158
    if they continue in the way they are heading now, id never want to install it again.
     
  29. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    The game has been out 15 months, and for a lot of that time, people have been "waiting to see the direction the game is going" and for a long time, it's gone nowhere, or if its been going anywhere, it's been doing the zombie shuffle. Then it takes, in a lot of peoples opinions, several massive leaps back, its entirely understandable why people are worried and done with the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Speshal_Snowman Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    175
    They have acknowledged that something went wrong in development, the game is being handled differently then it was in the past.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.