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And, time to put this game back on the shelf yet again.

Discussion in 'General' started by Fengist, Apr 6, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    432
    Certainly, the game is far from perfect, or even release quality, for multiplayer combat. However, I don't see any stutters in the first video, and the conveyor "bug" was player error. (There is a visible graphics ceiling on particle effects, tho.) My point was the game is hardly unplayable.
    If you had started this thread by making that argument, I would have agreed with you. But you did not. Read your title again. You were deliberately trying to get a reaction by extrapolating from the official server experience to the universe of SE multiplayer, and claiming you would quit playing due to your experience on the official server. And you also generalized about unofficial servers in the post I responded to. Don't complain when your troll post gets you trolled.

    I think Keen SHOULD be embarrassed by their official servers. That's why I am glad they run them, so they can serve as a reminder of how much more work the netcode and PvP balance in vanilla needs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Indeed, Keen did what a lot of other people did, which was to fire up a server and hope everything would be all right. They are depending on volunteers to keep order. That's not working well and they know it. Marek said from day one that they will be looking into different pay strategies because he knows that official servers will not work without paid staff to monitor them. Where will the money come from? Can KSH just pick up the tab? Will you pay a subscription? Can they finance it by selling something else?

    Who knows? The point being that like it or not at this point you are getting the best possible online server experience, and that's just not saying a lot. As Cyper Cheese points out, there's no way they are going to know how to run servers unless they run some servers. It's that whole Early Access thing all over again. It's not ready for Prime Time. Go ahead and put the game back on the shelf already.
     
  3. Dragongaze13 Trainee Engineer

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    Why trying to play on an official server in the first place ? That seems like a noob idea I'd personnaly never have. Space Engineers, as Minecraft or other very free sandbox games, is perfect for "small" communities with their own rules, moderators and admins and where everyone knows each other. Believing massive public servers without moderators and very very strict rules (=impossible) can be fun or interesting more than 30 minutes is terryfyingly wrong.

    A good public and massive server can't exist on this game in a satysfaying form. Especially within the scale of Space Engineers and KSH. It's a game design nightmare, and would requires tons of human intervention, unless it removes the sandbox aspect and put some MMO grinding to keep you playing. SE is a sandbox game. Public servers are a complete dream for people who know nothing about game design, people behaviors, sociology, etc.

    Ever since I read these forums, I've seen people speaking about public servers, public factions, etc. as if these could be a thing. Join or make private servers and make some real (and possibly large) communities, stop believing public servers will be interesting someday.

    Sorry for the rudeness, I'm just mimicking the way you speak. Also sorry for the horrible syntax, I don't want to take too much time. I'm out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  4. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    First off, no need to apologize.
    The belief is that "official" servers will be more stable and better managed than public servers. Many public servers are hosted on inadequate machines by people that have no desire to actually manage it, hoping that the outfit they rented it from will do that or their friends promised they would keep an eye on it.

    There's no doubt in my mind that in order for Keen to achieve the absolute ultimate server experience we will have to pay. The point of having the game on a server is that servers are designed to run a program for multiple clients, unlike your PC. Many rental servers are just PC's in a rack that are no different from yours. If you use one you should save your money and just use your own machine. On a real server with Xeon processors (and, some day, running Linux) the multiplayer experience should be better than running the game on your PC. That's the lure, that the MP survival game will be stable and people can just play without dealing with freezes and crashes. I believe it's a goal worth pursuing, and we'll see if Keen can pull it off.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Dragongaze13 Trainee Engineer

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    92

    I wasn't speaking about performances or bugs, but gameplay - which I thought was the topic. These generally don't matter for me in any game (never been bothered by bugs, especially in ambitious games). Of course better performances is a real and doable goal. Sorry or saying "official", I should have say "public".

    To me, this game deserves private (quality) servers, with inscriptions, moderations, whitelists, blacklists, forums, factions, roleplay if desired, etc. You can't hope it will just work in public without decreasing the freedom potential this game has.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  6. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    54
    Careful with the 'ageism'. That's a protected category in EU/GB. I wouldn't even bring it up. Nobody knows or needs to know what you are in a post.
    Seriously. Not even joking. Tweets/posts/DMs will land you in jail now.

    As for the 'rage quits'. Yup. I got them now. Just broke 2200+ hours. My megatunnel project caused sim speed to choke at 0.15 sim speed. I'm sad/mad. (see post).
    I briefly started an interesting game, dropped me in a polar biome of Earthlike. I set up 2 ice mining derricks, drilling ice to fuel hydrogen engines for power. The last 20hrs was fairly tedious, and not really inspiring. So, I'm kinda done.

    The environment isn't fully interactable. I really don't know how people dig to the center of a planet, I can't go 12km through a mountain.
    The DLC controversy and other distractions will be the trifecta that cause me to shelf SE for another 9+ months, or until an interesting update.

    bye.
     
  7. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    888
    I wonder how many others read the title, remembered the author, didnt bother to read any of it at all, and instead immediately heard in their heads something to the effect of:



    Thank gawd for the zeitgeist of Rick and Morty- in training me to think and live more pragmatically in these times.
     
  8. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,360
    I'm just thinking it's about time I put this game back on the shelf again. You know, where it will sit. On the shelf.

    Or maybe not...
     
  9. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,672
    The way my desk is set up, where my Tower sits is basically on a shelf. So I guess technically I have SE on the shelf already.... :woot:
     
  10. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    888
    zeitgeist.... seriously. It just applies to every. single. thing.

     
  11. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Mine's on the floor, and it's just too durn big to put on the shelf.
     
  12. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    What's the shelf life of SE anyways?
     
  13. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

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    207
    If you put it high enough, the shelf turns into a pedestal?
     
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    How high can it go?
     
  16. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    My experience with running a server is that the main-loop is quite a greedy piggy while the other threads are minimal. A Xeon processor isn't going to cut it. Consumer grade CPUs with lower core counts but HIGHER operating clocks work much better.

    The leased server community has to deal mostly with their server being run on fractions of hardware and sharing time with other instances of SE or other games. A $9.99 a month game server is just going to puke with any decent game-play. You're much better off with a consumer machine behind a firewall hanging off of a cable modem or the equivalent. I went from renting a server to just DIY and the performance increased GREATLY.
     
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  17. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Actually,you don't want a server that's running just any old Xeon processor. There are some Xeon processors that have good single-thread performance. If you are familiar with Nuttyrat, a streamer that usually streams MechWarrior Online but also enjoys Space Engineers and works on servers for a living, he pointed out that little tidbit while building an SE server from scratch live on Twitch.

    It's not so much the clock speed. It's how the data is managed.
     
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,704
    Data management in what form? The L2 or L3 cache? Use of ECC memory?
    https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i7/i7-8086k
    https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_w/w-2125
     
  19. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    In all forms. Xeon processors have always been for the commercial market only. You can compare an old Xeon processor to a low-end i5 and you can compare a new high-end i7 to a new low-end Xeon when it comes to clock speed orcache, and servers usually have RAM options home PCs didn't have. They're purpose-built to support many users simultaneously, while your old "core duo" & beyond were... not.

    If you want to overclock your i7 and call your laptop a server, go ahead. It'll work. Not saying it won't.


    Have fun with that.
     
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  20. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,704
    I'm not arguing with you. I just want you to support your claim greater than "my buddy said so."

    I have a Windows 10 Server at work hooked up to about a dozen video editors, pushing 4k video over a 10G network with about 150 terabytes of storage in two RAID 6 arrays that I built out (with Xeon processors). I'm pretty sure my laptop couldn't handle that much data. But thanks for the advice.
     
  21. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,360
    My rig has two 3.6GHz Xeon processors with 72GB RAM. I know, I know, it's a marginal system, but it seems to work OK for me right at the moment.
     
  22. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Well, I'm not going to. "My Buddy said so" is all I have the energy to replay with. If we are in agreement I don't understand why you need more than that. Nuttyrat is his Twitch name. He streams for hours on weekends. He's a nice guy and you can drill him for details all you want while he's streaming and I'm sure he'll answer any specific questions about what works and what doesn't, specifically for SE.

    What he told ME was that in the lineup of all available Xeon processors, some have better single-thread performance than others, and those are the ones you want to use in a server hosting SE. He then gave me a link to a page where the single-thread performance for all intel processors could be found. The processor at the top of the list is an i9. Still, if one is building an actual server and not just a machine that can run SE, one should choose the top Xeon processor because the i9 won't fit in the socket.

    At no time did he discuss clock speed or RAM. Apparently the default clock speed and whatever RAM is in the machine should suffice.

    I have several servers in my house and I love how you can replace just about everything in them without tools, and many times while the thing is still running. That's not a concern for you if you are renting a server, but if the server is yours it's a consideration. I tend to look at servers as a package and not just what the processor can do.
     
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