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Anti griefing mechanics

Discussion in 'General' started by kitsunelegendXx, Oct 20, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. kitsunelegendXx Trainee Engineer

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    95
    Something needs to be done about griefers in survival servers. I had someone yesterday, (not going to name names even though I KNOW who did it. He planted his bloody flag right in the middle of the ruins of my house) that decided they wanted to smash and destroy not only my walls, but my bed, wardrobe, claim block (after smashing through the wall it was behind), steal ALL of my tools, food, resources ect, all while I was logged off and at work.

    Look, I'm all for people wanting to siege and fight and raid and do pvp, but it shouldn't happen while no-one is online to fight back. Its not fair, and honestly, it really REALLY sucks to come back online only to find your hard work in ruins because you didn't even know it was being attacked and wrecked.

    While the owner is offline, their stuff (namely claim blocks, chests, and beds) should become immune to destruction by other players. Its not fair to the builders to log back on only to find all of their stuff completely wrecked and stolen. Its heart breaking and honestly, kills the drive to keep playing. I almost logged back off after I saw what happened to my stuff, but instead I decided to try and rebuild. It took me a while to recover though...

    Something needs to be done...
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  2. daze507 Trainee Engineer

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    35
    There was an idea (good in my opinion) to let NPCs (that you would pay) defend your castle while offline so that it wouldn't be super easy to take.
    I would not want to see ME transformed in a RUST during medieval times as well to be honest.
     
  3. kitsunelegendXx Trainee Engineer

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    95
    I'd rather have some type of immunity thing to protect your stuff while offline. Just make it to where you need to have a claim block thats been paid for ect. That way people simply can't do anything. I'd rather not trust my stuff to some dumb AI that might have a pathfinding glitch and end stuck against the wall right next to an open door while my stuff is getting wrecked.
     
  4. daze507 Trainee Engineer

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    35
    Yes, I understand your point, I expect to find my castle destroyed as well when I connect later...
    I think that, before everything, the offline invincibility should be an optional feature enabled or not by a server admin so a player would have the possibility to chose if he would take the risk or not.
    What is clear is that, without some kind of defence system, there won't be beautiful castle anymore as there wouldn't be any point building them but just big blocks with layer upon layer of walls. Basically, it would destroy the main scope of the game.
    I have no great idea but it's clear to me that something must be done indeed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  5. Deepflame Apprentice Engineer

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    395
    We're still thinking how to solve this issue.

    One idea I personally liked was that you have to declare war on someone's region before you can destroy things in it, after declaring war the other party gets 24 hours to prepare, and only after those 24 hours are up the war goes into effect. For each day of war, the attacker has to pay some kind of fee, increasing each consecutive day, and at the end of the war, if the area did not swap owner, the defender gets a portion of the fees the attacker had to pay. This would, at the very least, give you time to prepare. Maybe hire other, uninvolved players, as mercenaries for a cut of the resources? One of the downsides is that it takes away some of the immediacy of the game, as you cannot just roll up somewhere and start sieging. It would be like "No you have to declare war first", which is a bit heavy-handed, and some people may not understand this mechanic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Sir_Moodz Apprentice Engineer

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    377
    The speed at which you can destroy walls with hand tools has to be much much much slower, right now I can use my hammer to remove a solid stone block in like 30 seconds, the point of the game is to use siege machines or build ladders to get in, it should take at least like 10 min to destroy a solid stone block or even impossible. Build a catapult if you want to get in. 30 seconds is ridiculous.

    Also, to prevent defenders from repairing or rebuilding destroyed walls to fast, they should have the same speed limitation as the attackers when under siege. There is already a system in place to detect when your claim is under attack so this is easy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. daze507 Trainee Engineer

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    I'm all for the impossibility to destroy the stone walls manually.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Deepflame Apprentice Engineer

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    395
    Yeah, I agree, we are already planning to prevent people from just smashing stone walls with handtools. Maaaaaybe pickaxe, but veeery slowly.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Manchou Apprentice Engineer

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    182
    Very good idea! But what happen, if the players don't connect to the serveur during this 24 hours? Players have to "accept" the declaration of war (he can just accept, don't refuse). As soon as he accept other player declare war to him, 24h countdown could be start? Or you have imagine other thing?
     
  10. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,410
    I'm not sure I like the 24 hour idea. I would much rather see players be able to add guards to an area. They would have very simple AI and would respawn at a placed object after a short time if defeated. AI guards would be limited to X number per land plot.

    Doing this would make war more natural feeling and discourage greifers unless they are willing to amount a reasonable offense.
     
  11. Sir_Moodz Apprentice Engineer

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    Maybe something like a static archer object that shoots at enemies, anything more advanced than that would be to heavy for the server
     
  12. Teradyn Trainee Engineer

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    Need the ability for the people who are authorized to build in the claimed area to still deconstruct quickly with hammers so normal building progress isn't severely hampered (rarely is a large structure built without having to rearrange some construction).
     
  13. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,410
    Yeah, that would be the idea. Like a pseudo-replacement for turrets in SE. Archers simply stands somewhere and shoot when things are nearby and knights/brawlers run towards the enemy and attack (even attempt to destroy enemy siege equipment). They dont need to load in or run AI checks if no players are nearby. If you could interact with the spawn object to set options for the AI, that would be even better even if it comes later. Like an option for aggro range, a Walk To button that allows them to walk a very short distance so you can place a spawn object inside a tower, but they walk outside to stand on wall when they spawn. At the claim block, you could set up trespassing logic that is inherited by all AI (like attack all enemy and neutral players, remain passive until player damages something, attack enemy only).
     
  14. Kron Trainee Engineer

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    5
    and remove the ability for someone to dig in your claim. I came back to my stronghold to find that someone had just dug a path to get in. then they began to undermine my structure. and I was able to go to someone else's claim and place a crafting table
    --- Automerge ---
    players should mainly require siege machines for raiding to promote clever engineering
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. kitsunelegendXx Trainee Engineer

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    95
    Just had this happen to my place as well last night. Someone tried digging under my walls to get in, but luckily they couldn't because I had used stone blocks as flooring so they had given up after a while. Left an ugly af hole next to my house though... =C

    I have a feeling it was the same griefer though. I also learned last night that I wasn't his only victim either. He's hit at least 2 other players besides me on this server. He wrecks their houses and steals their stuff, then planets a flag in the ruins, all while the owners are offline and not able to defend their stuff.

    Something seriously needs to be done about this asap... we work so hard trying to put our stuff together, just to have someone come and wreck it while we're not there to defend it.

    Again, I'm all for allowing pvp and such, but it should be on both parties terms, while both parties are online and able to actively defend what they own. If the land owner is offline, their stuff should become indestructible. This will prevent people from raiding and siegeing someones constructions while the owner is offline.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. EngineeringMann Trainee Engineer

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    25
    I am all for the war declaration idea. The time should be configurable as a world option, of course.

    AI controlled guards just add all manner of complications that I doubt the game is ready for just yet. Perhaps at some point, but not yet. There are problems like path finding, optimization and scaling to consider, also guard resource cost (spammability?) and effectiveness (better than players?), etc.

    On the note of war declarations, perhaps alliances could also be a part of the game? So anyone declaring war on a house will also declare war on their allies.
     
  17. AedanXaelan Apprentice Engineer

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    310
    I do like this idea quite a bit. Very similar to the eve system. To solve the immediacy issue, what about only having this system apply while the owner is offline? If they are currently on, no wait, war can start immediately.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. arctic pirana Trainee Engineer

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    5
    I think there are some issues with this though,an attacker can besiege someone while they're at work,even with 24 hour delay the battle would start a the same time the next day.possibly you make it so you could only declare war on someones area while there online and make so the defender can delay the attack for up to 24 hours instead of a fixed 24 delay.However the defender will have to pay a tax per hour they hold off an attack.If the attack is held off the attacker can pull their equip out of play and spawn when the battle begins to prevent the defender from destroying the attackers equipment while the siege is held off.Once the delay runs out the attacker has 5 hours(the attack does not have to begin the siege immediately but their time will still be used will be used) to besiege the defender before the defender can delay again,however after the first delay the defender cannot build or repair in the area between attacks.Most of the numbers mentioned are more examples and the actual numbers that are used/protection in general should probably be changeable by the server.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  19. kitsunelegendXx Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    95
    I like these ideas, but I fear we're getting a tad too complex with this thinking here. This is to prevent simple griefing on DS, not create this RP type driven "declare war to be able to fight" thing. On top of that, I feel like making players have to declare war and then waiting will be boring for people who just want to have a fair pvp raid against others. Besides, most players who want to pvp against other players for fun and not griefing will respect a player's stuff while they're offline, and probably go and find someone else to pvp against.

    All I ask, is some kind of protection for my stuff while I'm offline. Maybe a simple thing to where my buildings and such cannot be destroyed while I'm not logged in to defend them. (except by server admins or moderators of course)

    Its just simple grief protection. It doesn't have to be super complex.
     
  20. daze507 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    35
    Yes, but their are flaws with you system as well: It would mean that players feom different time zone couldn't attack each others since one will sleep when the others will be online and vice versa.
    The system could also be exploited, when a player could disconnect every time he is attacked.
     
  21. entspeak Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,744
    Immensely slowing the ability to break down a wall or through a door with a hand tool or weapon would be a great anti-griefing measure. Also, add a wear mechanic so that, after a time, the pick-axe, club... or whatever breaks. I mean, if someone builds a catapult in survival and has the resources to completely destroy your castle while you were offline, you were offline too long; but, hand tools shouldn't be good at quickly destroying anything.
     
  22. daze507 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    35
    Also, I think that stone structures should be far more solid than they currently are. For instance, you shouldn't drop a stone on a floor and see it passing through it like it were paper.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Silen Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    I will only say I totally agree with you kitsune. You should be immune from any attack when you are offline, and there should be a "cooldown" countdown in case you log out to avoid combat. Hope we see that asap, for now I suggest that you play on servers where there's a proper admin to deal with these kinds of people.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. Frostik Apprentice Engineer

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    152
    Just add the gatling turret from SE and there will be no griefers.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  25. entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    I disagree that your castle should be immune from attack while offline. Eventually having the ability to have NPC guardians would be great; but, in the meantime, the simplest solution is the best: drastically nerf the hand tools when it comes to damaging blocks. Griefing is an act of opportunity in survival. As I said earlier, if someone takes the time to build a catapult or some other war engine and gains resources to destroy your castle while you were offline, then... you must've been offline for sometime - such is life. You can't fast travel with such equipment (and griefing is a good argument against ever allowing that in survival.) Griefing in survival is most likely someone with hand tools. Nerf the block damaging ability of hand tools and you will drastically cut down the griefing.

    I'm thinking of limiting fast travel to paths in my mods - meaning, you can only fast travel to areas with a path in it. (which could also help to reduce griefing.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  26. EngineeringMann Trainee Engineer

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    25
    Wouldn't be surprised if people were able to out-range the SE gatling turret with trebuchets.
     
  27. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,410
    Still waiting on ME turrets
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  28. Silen Apprentice Engineer

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    246

    Pretty sure you can't hammer down an enemy castle, you don't get the point.
    Say you spend weeks on your fancy castle and casual RP with your friends in multiplayer, you go offline for an entire night, and during the next morning you're at work. In that huge arch of time a random smart enemy declares war on you, takes his fancy trebuchet, knocks down your wall, takes your castle or destroys it completely. And all your work gone without being even able to fight.

    I don't see how you can disagree about an offline protection when this stuff happens. Maybe some people don't, but most of us have real lives and sleeping and working are essential things which cannot be left apart. Those two only make up an average of 16 hours, 16 hours for anyone to fuck up your castle.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  29. EngineeringMann Trainee Engineer

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    25
    There is also the fact there are those who do not wish to besiege castles, but merely to destroy them. We had this happen to us, when attackers never targeted our gates, but always our castle. Had we not been there to defend, we would have logged back in to a large pile of rubble at our feet, surrounded by pristine condition walls.

    Where is the fun in building all those walls if you never get the chance to see them tested in an actual siege.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  30. entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    But you are both talking about a game that had an infinitely smaller map - you can't possibly be talking about ME with planets, because nobody has spent weeks building a castle in survival on planets. You are also not talking just about griefing, but one of the pitfalls of any online game that has destructible bases on public servers. Play on servers that don't use fast travel. Limit fast travel distance and increase the cooldown. Find a community (or establish one) with people you can enjoy playing with. All of these discourage griefing. Or, play on worlds that have fast travel limited to paths, as I suggest above. The harder it is to find someone, the harder it is to grief. It's easier to build the catapults and trebuchets to grief someone when you know where the target is and know that it is extremely close.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.