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Atmospheric Thrusters under-powered.

Discussion in 'Balancing' started by Ronin1973, Nov 15, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,792
    As far as creating a VTOL ship on a 1G planet. The amount of thrust seems fine. The majority of thrust is vectored downwards and smaller engines in the four horizontal directs to get the ship going seems solid.

    However, when creating a welding/grinding small utility ship, there's just not enough thrust to suspend a ship that needs to work at multiple angles in order to weld or grind. Once you begin taking on cargo, the small ship inertial dampeners start losing the battle against gravity. Adding more thrusters doesn't help. That increases mass as well as the additional batteries needed to power them.

    Building any large structures is going to be next to impossible without a usable welding/grinding ship.

    A 25% increase in Newtons in force, including inertial dampening with no additional power usage would create just enough of a thrust to weight difference to achieve some sort of playability.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  2. Sibz Apprentice Engineer

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    361
    I agree - For small atmospheric thrusts (both large and small grids). There just isn't quite enough force and its seems they don't lift much more than their mass.
     
  3. Mornedhel Trainee Engineer

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    35
    I also think that atmothrusters are currently far too underpowered. I mean, just have a look at the ships Keen build for the easy start scenarios. They are cluttered with atmo thrusters all over the place, the minig ship for example has 11 large thrusters on it. By the atmo thruster design it is also hardly possible to fit them nicely into the ships but instead attaching them outside of the ship, so in the end you can barely see the ship as it is covered with thrusters.
    Also the hydrogen thrusters are hardly an alternative as they burn through fuel much too fast. It would be nice if they would be usable beside sending rockets to space.

    I like that building ships for planets and flying them is a really new challenge and that there can be no jack of all trades, but the amount of thrusters/hydrogen needed is just too high in my opinion
     
  4. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    I think atmo thrusters are supposed to be more mid-planet-tier, they aren't supposed to be used as your exclusive means of mobility, and the mining ship is poorly designed from a practical standpoint, I see their volume as an engineering challenge- and a balance to being the cheapest form of flight in the game- if you have enough you can get most of the way into space with them and inertia alone. Also I believe it is something that just needs getting used to.
     
  5. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,792
    In order to mine effectively, you have to be able to strap a few of these thrusters on to a ship in a way that the thrusters are contained within the circumference of the mining face (everything has to streamline behind your miners).

    With that, building a miner that can haul ore up from a vertical shaft is challenging if not impossible. I'm trying some different configurations. For horizontal flight, I'm okay with what I have. For small block large thrusters they seem to be adequate around 100,000kg of mass each. If you go more than that you can end up in a situation where your downward velocity can't be counter-acted by your thrusters and you end up crashing.

    The small thrusters really aren't much use vertically.
     
  6. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    Have you guys ever been to a real ship yard or quarry? Is the equipment using jets to fly constantly?

    Make cranes, ship yards, mining vehicles, and other land based machines. You aren't in space anymore.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,792
  8. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,792

    Please let me know when human beings start quarrying on planets besides Earth and we'll call in the physics inquisition then.

    There aren't viable means of mining vertically that are reliable at this time other than using something that flies.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    Why does quarrying on Earth today not count? Flying isn't an efficient way to mine. Lots of people are using vertical drilling right now and that works great. There are solutions that don't require buffing the one way you want to do it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Nathn123 Trainee Engineer

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    17
    you don't need to fly just build some scaffolding blocks (like stairs or armour) around the large ships structure so you can access any part of it for welding , that what i did
     
  11. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    Building assisting structures and vehicles are going to be pretty important for large projects.
     
  12. roothorick Trainee Engineer

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    75
    The wheels as they currently exist in the game make this very impractical at best. Even large ship wheels struggle to get any traction on the rough surfaces carved out by drills, no matter their settings. And I found the large ship variants to have a problem with spontaneously combusting.

    I experimented with adding thrusters to wheeled rovers before giving up and just making a flying miner, which works, but there's still the issue of drills being obscenely slow. You carve tunnels at literally less than 1m/s and the only way around it is spamming warheads.

    Right now, survival is simply unplayable. Between the glacial mining and the ore generation issues, it would take you hundreds of hours to collect enough to make even a modest small ship. It feels like this is entirely due to bugs, though.
     
  13. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    play with the wheel settings- if the wheels go kaput your doing it wrong, seriously I made a basic 4 wheel small solar powered buggy- by accident NONE of the wheels line up to the ones that should be across from them, and it works like a charm- didn't notice until after I drove it for a few minutes, ore exists in non-glacial regions too.

    edit: here's a hint FRONT WHEEL STEERING,
     
  14. Morrigi Apprentice Engineer

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    240
    The atmos thrusters aren't that bad. 8 of the large small ship thrusters can lift well over 1,500 metric tons.
     
  15. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    Atmospheric thrusters aren't meant to be a cure-all locomotion method. Engineer more.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

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    How is that possible? - I built a small ship with 4 large thrusters and I could barely lift 100 tonnes (of which 40 tonnes was the aircraft itself; engines, cargo modules, power supply). Hydrogen thrusters would be nice but there's no nearby sources of ice/snow to work with (Alien easy start, custom scenario)

    I'm getting really frustrated trying to design a serviceable grinder/welder vehicle, and so far been mostly relying on building most stuff by hand.


    I have a niggling feeling not all planets were created equally, and that "low oxygen" worlds actually have thinner atmospheres and thus less thrust. Hence some people claimg atmospheric thrusters are OP and can carry insane amounts of cargo, and yet people like me and OP are scratching our heads as to why we can't lift a fraction of that. But in the absence of of ice to build hydrogen thrusters, and too much atmosphere to use ion "do you even lift brah" is not a very useful question ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  17. mhalpern Senior Engineer

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    2,119
    Actually this is exactly true- the power output of the atmospheric thrusters is in fact (at least partially) a function of the thickness of the atmosphere. Where neither atmospheric thrusters or ion are good options, limit your flight to getting on and off planet, use wheels the rest of the time.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,792
    Well, the small thrusters aren't good for "lift". The are only good for lateral thrusting. On the earth-like planet I've attached one to a one drill test ship that mines vertically. I placed small blast door blocks under it to protect the components under it. The drill faces down but the ship operates horizontally. The body of the ship can't be over 5x5 small blocks else it'll be wider than the path of the drill.

    One large thruster is enough to pull a drill, two med cargo containers, and a connector up and down when it's full. However, if the ship tilts too much to any side, it falls over. I've placed small thrusters on it for lateral movement, but there's no way they can lift the body themselves, even when the ship is empty.

    So I'm going to revamp the drill with large lateral thrusters and more batteries. In that case, I should be able to return to lateral operations. This does mean more resources required at the start of the game to get an efficient mining operation started.
     
  19. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

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    237
    One bizarre thing I noticed regarding the difficulty of building atmospheric utility craft is that their payloads are often many times heavier than the crafts themselves. For instance, my little miner weighs about 20K kg. It carries about 100K kg ore. My building ships carry components whose total mass is many times greater than the ship itself, and they fit into a compartment that's like 10% of my ship size. These utility ships handle just fine when they don't carry anything, I think the balance problem is that the weight of things is ridiculous.

    Consider that this giant real world vehicle weighs 360 tons and can transport 500 tons, 1.4 times the weight of the vehicle itself. Tractor trailers haul loads roughly 2.5 times their weight at most. I think adjusting the weights of ores and components would go a long way towards balancing utility craft in atmosphere, rather than making thrusters stronger because atmo thrusters are plenty strong for non-utility ships.

    Little tip with mining ships in atmo: don't put cargo containers on them, seriously, your drills and your connector should have more than enough capacity that you don't need cargo containers. You can build very compact mining ships with just small thrusters capable of mining vertically and horizontally without danger of tipping over. And you don't need to armor up your atmo mining ships, fly them very carefully, every single block you place on them matters. Forget everything you knew about mining in space, mining in atmo is its own thing.
     
  20. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

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    41
    Are you sure? - are you playing in an up-scaled storage capacity world, because that only amounts to like, 4-5k volume, which is only about 10 times more than you can carry by hand.
     
  21. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

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    237
    Without mods I play on 10x inventory, but it's my understanding the weights and everything scale as inventory capacity increases? If that's incorrect then disregard my suggestion. A small ship drill holds 33K L of stuff with 10x inventory, that's a lot to carry.

    With the 10x inventory settings my little ship can still carry 10 times what I normally can before it falls out of the sky so this sounds right. If the mass doesn't scale with inventory settings then I would definitely put cargo containers on the ships on 1x inventory.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  22. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    41
    Right, 33,000 litres of stone at x10, encumbers a ship the same amount as 3,300 litres of stone in x1. But in x1 you can only carry 3,300 litres in the drill, which is a minuscule amount and will fill up in literally seconds. To make the trip worthwhile you really need the extra storage space, which means a corresponding increase in thrust
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Pfo Apprentice Engineer

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    237
    Thing is, my miner can't even fill it's cockpit, connector and drills before it falls out of the sky so a cargo container is moot. It's very tiny and efficient, I made it to mine both vertically and horizontally and easily move around inside tunnels. Adding a cargo container means adding more thrusters, and therefore more power and now it's a big bulky mess.

    On 1x I would probably take a roving vehicle out with me to serve as storage.
     
  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,792
    @ Gentry . You troll a thread that's over 3 weeks old and decide to "disagree" with a post made BEFORE Keen updated the thrusters... to be TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT more powerful.

    I guess I was just so wrong, wrong, wrong. By about 5%.

    Next time, try posting, bub, and participate in a discussion.
     
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