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Build a ship and then what?

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Striike, Mar 17, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Striike Trainee Engineer

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    I keep reading posts from people saying "Space Engineers is not about XYZ." So with that blanket statement, we are excluding true survival (no food/water), enemy AI, pressurized compartments, and a whole lot of other things because? "The game is called Space Engineers, not Space Explorers, Space Survivors, Space PVPers"...whatever.

    So, if you do not have an argument about what I am saying different than what I listed below, please refrain as it is redundant. My question is on direction of this game. I love the new "survival" mode, the multiplayer, and even how the building is taking place. But my concern is the final vision of the world we will exist in. Am I looking forward to nothing but a bunch of random asteroids floating in space? I see great potential if there were things to actually go see and explore. I think it would be a shame to build all these great features in a game only to leave everything sitting in a virtual shipyard. I was a Star Trek fan growing up, so to put it in those terms I fantasized about being Captain Kirk, not the guy that built the Enterprise. People can still play the role of ship builder, I just ask the developers to put some focus on what we do after we build our awesome ship. With the current systems in place we could literally have a fully maned star ship with players filling certain roles such as weapons officers, engineers ("I need more power Scotty"), or even fighter pilots protecting the mother ship. But all of that is useless without something to do. Please give us something more than, build another ship, or mine another asteroid.

    PS If this is already covered, by developers, in great detail a link would be awesome. Thank you.
     
  2. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    191
    I very much agree with this. Space Engineers will need to expand after its basic building and engineering elements are complete. I think that a procedurally-expanding game world, complete with NPCs, structures, and enemies, will really fix the lack-of-exploration issue.

    Unfortunately, NPCs would require AI, something we are yet to see in the game. I hope someone at Keen Software House is good at it!
     
  3. AstTheCat Trainee Engineer

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    I hope you've already had enough of the "it's alpha" comments or whatever. Still, I have to tell you, the game is alpha. If you didn't want to participate in the testing phase, why did you buy it in the first place? Seems to me that you're missing the so-called endgame content. Well, there's no endgame content yet. And none will be until the devs finish polishing the game. If they put something brand-new untested content to the game, they'll receive comments like OMG LAAG, OMG LOW FPS, etc. Give them time. They do an excellent job. Since the release the game became more stable, has better performance and content. Even balance!

    Just be patient, and give the devs time to do their job.
     
  4. Striike Trainee Engineer

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    Dang, forgot to put the "Its Alpha" part in. I understand its alpha, and I have no issues waiting, I just cannot find any information on final direction of this game. I bought it because of what this game represents in terms of potential. But without any clear indication of what the finished game is like, I am forced to assume I am part of the development, since I bought the early access.
     
  5. AstTheCat Trainee Engineer

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    Same here. I think the main reason why they haven't released their final direction is the sentence in their videos. I think they still have them. "Space Engineers is an alpha stage of development. Everything in the game is subject to change."
     
  6. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Yup, still more agreeings. It'd be great to hear from the devs about what they have planned for post-alpha.
     
  7. tharkus Junior Engineer

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    i totally agree with you STRIIKE , i understand that maybe the devs are oriented to make a pvp game, but if they center only on that there will be a HUGE loss.
    because the game has the potential to make it much more than building, mining and shooting other people!
    for example i want to play survival alone, but is friking boring! just building mining and trying to not die.
    and playing Multiplayer Coop with friends is the same.
    also the boring couple of asteroids are... boring, we need more than asteroids (planets, etc)
    so, we going to need AI and planets and more stuff.
    Final Note: to those who going to come to respond my post :
    1) I KNOW ITS ALPHA
    2) I KNOW the game is called SPACE ENGINEERS (BUT space has much more things that asteroids and black void)
    3) I bought this game i like it but i want the devs exploit the HUGE potential it has.
     
  8. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    I 100% agree with what the OP is saying.

    People are not thinking about something with the game: The building, mining, combat... all these mechanics are Solid (Albeit a tad bit buggy). The time scale the ship has chosen is good, the value of the ships... All of this we are seeing is solid gold that needs some tweaks and debugging... But

    Once I have a platform and a ship... what on earth am I supposed to do? I -Really- hope the devs choose to answer this, rather than rely on the modding community, like I've seen other games do. We need Late game achievements to strive towards, more goods, more incentive to trade, more scarcity in some cases, more upgrades, more customization... We basically need things, so if I make a space station, and start working on the asteroid to make myself a nice little base, recruit some dudes and dudettes to help me... we all have something to do, after the 48 hours needed to drain that asteroid of all it's resources. Even in base minecraft that holds true, because I can explore and capture villagers, and do all this stuff to make a truly amazing world. In Space Engineers, I can get bored and shoot lazily at my neighbor right now, and that worries me. If that is all this game will be about, it is SERIOUSLY Limiting what could be a truly awesome game that just blows all it's competition out of the water in an almost unprecedented way.
     
  9. propagandawar Apprentice Engineer

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    151
    Well if space pirates come in (Something I would like to see) There should be a clock Even with two friends building it takes quite some time to build up a safety net. I agree with food and compressed compartments too. Being able to go into an airlock and just work on internals would be nice without your spacesuit going down.
     
  10. AstTheCat Trainee Engineer

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    I'm sure everyone will get what they want one way or another. These devs rely on the community. Not like others (hope I don't have to point fingers). They asked us many times what do we want and how do we want it. They tried their best to come up with a solution and then polishing it, making it actually a working content.
     
  11. Aven Valkyr Trainee Engineer

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    69
    and this is EXACTLY why I keep crying for the devs to look at optimizing this game. Even in its current state with the features it has, the vision of this game is lacking in that people come to this game wanting to work together to build epic stuff, a huge space station and a fleet of ships in this game. Currently one small-ish ship build is all it takes to crash a world. So unfortunately no, as long as people keep begging for more features you will never see that star trek vision come to reality. People will never be able to work together to really accomplish anything because you can only build for about 15 total man-hours and the game comes to a complete standstill. Sorry dude..
     
  12. Stonewolf Junior Engineer

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    776
    Can't you already do that. Start a server where you and your friends group up to build and then meet in the middle to battle it out. Make it something like winner is who survives, and that crew wont have to start over. They can Improve their ship from the debris or gather new resources. Where as the crews who did not survive choose a new captain and build from start up. Next round be more interesting cause surviving captains ship is known, except upgrades. Compete who can stay as a ship captain the most fights.

    Set the rules of engagement to fit what the server can handle. Like say only can build certain size of ships and have set amount of fighters. Captains medical facility back at base so once he/she dies, senior officer takes helm, retreat and be the next round captain or stay and fight till death and next rank up.

    Just a thought.


    Personally when I get to the point that my ship is "finished" armed and fueled. I consider the world beaten. I survived. I load a new world or start the same with different goal. Something like build a base or only small ship(s)
     
  13. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    Yeah, but that is the point: What you are describing is instance fighting, and with the limited complexity of the game as it is now that is all the game can really be, a series of instanced matches. Thing is, manual mode is window dressings if you want to do instances, because the time it takes to balance and build a map is so hilariously long in an instance, that you are better off playing in Creative if you want to do that.

    Manual mode, owes itself to people playing for Longer periods of time, and the thing about that, is that you have to have goals and paths to take if that is what you want. You can't really just say: "Well keep building" because that isn't really necessary. Further, if you have the ability to continue pretty much forever, that increases your player retention dramatically. More players playing more often means that your playerbase grows. Greater playerbase, means more exposure, means more sales.

    Between instance combat and long term base building, the devs seem to be looking more towards long term base existence, because we have heard mention of Dedicated servers, something that instanced combat would be totally wasted on. So we need those long term goals, to make long term bases and long term maps possible.

    And before someone tries to cop out by saying: "Well it's alpha" Yes, thank you captain obvious. No one is saying: "NO, GIMME THIGNS NOW!" we are saying we would like to know what things we are potentially getting, also we would like things that make the game have long term goals to strive towards, more so than we have at this moment. We would also love to know if we could hear some of these ideas for long term maps.

    Edit: And, no one is saying the game Sucks, I love the game as it is now... I just don't want the potential here to go to waste. This is a truly amazing game, I just want it to give KSH more for all the work they have done, and the above is how I think that could happen. I want Marek Rosa and company to drown in a sea of money, for the fun they have already provided me and my friends while playing.
     
  14. Striike Trainee Engineer

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    11
    @Stonewolf - Not really what I am talking about. What you describe may be fun for an hour or 2. I am more concerned with a month or 2, possibly longer.

    Your scenario for "World Beaten" is fine, but I can build a ship and not fly it in any voxel game. Space Engineers has so much potential, I really do not grasp your satisfaction with its current state.
     
  15. damoran Junior Engineer

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    608
    I think what you are supposed to do is jump in a multiplayer game and PVP with others to test your designs. Or if you are more of the mechanical engineer, work on complex machines with other like minded individuals. I get this, but I do think you have a point in that, the scale of the game and the way it runs seriously limits the capacity to enjoy this type of play considering you need a large persistant online world or at the very least large instanced areas with more than a few players.

    Hit the nail on the head here. If the current state of the game is to flourish and become something we will need larger areas of space that can support more players. This will allow us to create our own things to do in a community in-game.

    Ultimately, the long term goals from what I understand is dictated by the players. You can band together to create massive ships or even fleets of ships to wage war on each other or whatever you want to do. But you are absolutely correct in that none of that is plausible if the engine can't handle more than a couple 100,000 blocks at a time and/or a handful of players.

    I think they are fast approaching a fork in the road. Based on their engine and scalability, they'll need to decide if this is more of a single player/coop experience, in which case I believe AI and larger more varied worlds will be essential...OR...is it to become the multiplayer sandbox experience many of us dream about.

    As much as it pains me to say it, I simply don't see the engine being optimized enough to allow for the scale necessary for the latter. I think while our computers are certainly capable of amazing things, we still haven't quite reached the level at which most of us see the perfect space sandbox game. I hope to be proven wrong.
     
  16. davesoft Apprentice Engineer

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    168
    Perhaps one day, joining and hosting will be seamless, and we'll build in our private and friend-only worlds before exposing them to the wastes of the interwebs :p

    Defending against newbies/griefers will be more challenging that pve npcs!
     
  17. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    1,977
    Well even that: "Build complex machines" I can make a refinery.. or I can make a auto drill... It's really limited as it is now, in the: "Build complex machines" category. There are some impossibly large and impractical things you can build, like a wheel that pushes a rod and whatnot... but these don't really follow with the style of the game, and are just people working around what I would say are things that will eventually be added in.

    I agree though, that Building bigger and better things should be something, and kind of goes along with what I'm saying, that we need more things to empower long term goals. This is just another instance where that rings true.

    This is a little broader than I was aiming. I am Just talking about IG goals. I agree with your points though. That said, the devs seem to be aiming at the sandbox, again given dedicated servers and statements about how we will be seeing larger server caps. It'll take a Lot of optimization, but I'm seeing games with more, and with greater graphics already.

    If it were to be single/co-op only, I think we'd be seeing something about a story or more things tied to AI, whereas the devs seem to have absolutley no interest in AI.
     
  18. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    I agree...

    I'm almost finish building a sort of article about dynamic world generation, something this game needs!

    What worries me a little is the Alpha plague. There are Alphas everywhere in Steam... so few of them really go to a release version.

    Most of them take a very good idea, something with good potential and a playerbase in hunger, then build something good, but unfinished, then Steam advertise it... like Rust... that game sold more than 600k times, but the development process didn't got any faster.

    Another example was WarZ, that game even changed name because the sheer amount of negative feedback.

    This game have so much potencial, I hope the DEV team manages it well and make a really good game. There is potencial here to go beyond what Minecraft have acomplished.

    Expand the universe, let the players decide what they want to do... it is a sandbox right? If someone wants to create a "warfare" server, let them. Another server could be about PvE and so on...
     
  19. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    191
    I think what people are saying is that they want the game to be like a super-complex, realistic Minecraft. And I see no issue with that. I just hope that SE multiplayer does not devolve into the hideous, deformed, plugin-infested thing that MC servers have become
     
  20. Stonewolf Junior Engineer

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    776
    I was meaning the building state to take weeks before the 'battle day' . So the group/crew would take more bride in the fight. Not just insta ships for everyone to blow up. But it was just that, an quick idea, me trying to be helpful :cool:

    For the other comment me being satisfied with current state... I donno, maybe I'm just simple mind, easily amused, who knows :D But its true I love the game already in its current state and can spend hours and hours in the SE space.
     
  21. Willhu Trainee Engineer

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    Just add a poor AI like in Starmade, and we will play it forever
     
  22. Merinsan Apprentice Engineer

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    209
    Last night I was playing survival, I had discovered a huge uranium vein which I was mining out. I did this for a couple of hours, and then I asked myself, "why am I doing this? I should build something." I didn't know what to build. There was no need for anything in my save. I had some ships and a base. I had a lot of resources. I realized there was no need to do anything.
    So I turned off the game and played something else.
     
  23. Fidel Battista Apprentice Engineer

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    256
    By Merinsan
    There is a wise message in that story.
     
  24. ArenDaystar Apprentice Engineer

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    146
    This is how I feel too. What do I do? It takes forever to accomplish anything ambitious, but you can only really focus on surviving in survival mode. I have talked about this a bit before, but I think that a conquest mode featuring mining, copy+paste, creative building, infinite ammo/fuel, and the goal of conquering other player's bases/ships would change SE from a gimmick simulator-ish thing into a real, full-fledged game. I would play a conquest mode for hours, and then have some fun designing ships or surviving for a few minutes. As it stands, both survival and creative only allow for a few things (all of which are in the same vein) before you run out of stuff to do.

    For conquest, the player limit would not have to be changed, few new features would be needed, and, even though there would be a lot of ships (at least one per player) they would probably not be that large. I think that unless KSH implements a dedicated competitive mode, SE will become a niche game, and the vast drop in sales will hinder further development. They need to make the game addictive, and they need to do it soon.
     
  25. pirate Apprentice Engineer

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    249
    Have you guys tried playing MP with just one cruiser-sized large ship? Two? How about three?... It's hellish right now. They are working primarily on optimization and netcode so that when they add more things to do it will be possible to do them. They're a small company, let them focus on one issue and leave it be.
     
  26. ArenDaystar Apprentice Engineer

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    146
    Well, this morning I hosted a server. We had about 30 large ships scuttling around, and zero lag. Maybe it was just cause I was hosting.
     
  27. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    Yea I don't lag and if you look at the map were on, link at bottom if you want to test it, as host everywhere on this map I pull 60 fps except at the uranium planetoid, but it is huge, around that I pull 35 fps average.

    If you try and host this game on a laptop your probably going to have some lag issues.
    You need a very powerful video card for the best performance right now, that could change, but not likely until we get dedicated servers.

    In this map is a uranium planet, 4 large asteroids and some small ones, asteroids at 13000m, scattered ships everywhere, around 30 of them, a couple of huge super carriers, a few ships from workshop, you might see yours in there , over a dozen small ships scattered around.


    MAP> ....http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=239153876


    I can see a few issues coming with trying to balance games, the game is so detailed in every area that it takes along time to actually build things and then make ammo and then be prepared to mine just for ammo, how does the game determine what level of development each player is at for matchmaking?.....
    Without some semi stupido AI to run around and kill in single or multiplayer there isn't much chance of a fair fight in this game, in most instances its going to be one person being totally overwhelmed with shock and awe ! LOL !
    I killed some random dude online by squashing him against my hull, at 104/ms ! I don't think he even saw me coming !
     
  28. Merinsan Apprentice Engineer

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    No one is suggesting this be addressed in the next update, just that it be addressed eventually. So far there is no information about what would happen next, and it'd be nice to at least have an idea.
     
  29. iron_dinges Apprentice Engineer

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    383
    Read this: http://forums.keenswh.com/post/transcription-of-the-qa-session-from-the-dev-stream-today-31714-6809536?pid=1281983982#post1281983982

    At this point, the only way to really respond to this is to say "it's an alpha", which you obviously already know.

    They're taking care of priorities first.

    This game will continue to grow to be much of what we want it to be, we just need to have patience and constantly dialogue with the devs as to where we want this game to go.

    I think this snippet gave me the most hope:
    Previously, they had pretty much stated that there are no plans for AI. But they've clearly seen how much it's been requested in the forums and on social media. They're listening to us, but it takes time and they have to go by their development priorities.

    Personally I think the first priority should be some sort of scripting support so that we can make much of this by ourselves.
     
  30. McHendrik Apprentice Engineer

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    152
    I dunno about "AI" but I do kind of wish there was a PvE reason to build a combat ship. I could imagine antennas and other components being used to scan the skies for the enemy base, and automatic turrets on the base out to some range / tracking speed. Not complicated AI, just basic defense mechanisms. You'd need to make a ship that could last long enough to take out the defenses, take out the power supply, that kind of thing. Maybe a series of this with clues to the location of the next one, etc.

    Now that MY base is pretty much done, I see the combat components in the assembler and ask myself "what would make me build a combat ship?". "Survival" implies "surviving" and I'm safe now, so... what's next? The only answer is some target to go blow up... like a mission... or a target with a rare item I can salvage, etc. Or plentiful resources I don't have to mine myself. Risk, reward, chance of dying, but chance of big payoff salvaging the enemy base, etc. I have no reason right now to risk anything or waste resources, but I don't need the resources because I have nothing I need to build.

    This is alpha, so we don't know what is coming, but I'm a PvE player and wondering where the 'content' is, or whether there's actually any content planned at all. There are a lot of 'sandbox' games out there and I've tried quite a few. With Minecraft there was a lot of "content" eventually, but even there, once I had a monster trap for each resource built, or stockpiles of armor / resources / etc., once I killed the dragon, there was nothing to do. I don't build pretty houses for the heck of it, I build machines and tools for a goal. No goal... no motivation. Once I'm safe and have a pipeline working, making something for aesthetics doesn't motivate me anymore.

    I need a reason to continue and that doesn't exist here yet. I am not sure it's planned, frankly. Too many of these games are that way these days, it seems. Of course (IE: EQ Next Landmark) they're often in alpha still as well.
     
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