Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Cargo Conversion cheat sheet

Discussion in 'General' started by captainbladej52, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    Bit of a quick question for folks here. Is there a sort of Liter to Kg cheat sheet that any of you folks use to know how much stuff can be loaded into a block's inventory? EX: loading a large reactor with maximum amount of uranium. Was wondering if anyone had a sheet like that available or such because having a ton of windows open at once gets annoying real fast.
     
  2. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,240
    You could create one for the rest of us! :tu:
     
  3. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,667
    Chicken Nugget has a Google Docs spreadsheet... but I'm not sure if it's accurate.
     
  4. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    I thought the metric system was supposed to be easily convertible... Like 1L = 1kg of water, or something like that.

    So then the spreadsheet would be like " ok, what's the volume of steel plate as compared to gravity generator components?
     
  5. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,553
    We don't use Liters in SE do we??? I don't remember there being Liters...... :)
     
  6. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    446
    I'm pretty sure that we do all our drinking in fifths around here.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
  7. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    How many fit in a large cargo container?
     
  8. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
  9. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    532
    Since volume is a property of cargo space, but weight is a property of grid mass (and thruster/gyro capability), it's hard to equate the two in term of impact/effectiveness. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could set a maximum mass (i.e., a mass limiter) for each cargo container?
     
  10. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,240
    I take the simple approach to cargo containers. If I include cargo containers in a ship, and I always do, then I test my build with the cargo containers loaded to their maximum capacity to determine the ship's maximum gross mass when climbing out of a planet's gravity well. Sometimes I test with ice or ore, and other times I load them with iron ingots. One ship has so much lift capacity that I needed to load the cargo containers with uranium ingots to determine its maximum capacity.
     
  11. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    271
    I like to load my ships up before I upload them to the workshop for folks that want to spawn them in, or myself for that matter. The table above is basically what weight of cargo each block can hold instead of having to convert from L to Kg and such. I just wish we could have the blocks display either maximum weight or maximum volume.
     
  12. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    301
    That's comparing apples to pears. Now image a ton of Iron ingots, and a ton of feathers. Both have the same mass, but you don't get the feathers in a cube that the iron ingots just fit in, if you get what I mean.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    yeah, weight and mass are different measures (as in the weights of different things are different per cargo space volume). Im pretty sure hydrogen tanks measure their capacity in Liters, btw

    A large cargo of ice, is not the same weight as a large cargo of Iron ingots, are not the same weight as a large cargo or uranium.

    Then there are the complications of how many iron ingots to make a steel plate, and the variance in cargo space volume between that amount of ingots volume vs that volume of steel plates...

    annnd you see the complication of all of it.

    Someone asked me once in game how many large thrusters to hover on earthlike world with full cargo.. and got mad at me when I answered but said "It has too many variables to answer that definitively"
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  14. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    301
    To be exact, Mass is the actual matter in an object. Weight is the mass x acceleration, the most common method to meassure mass. Base unit in Kg (not g!). Liter is a volume meassurement. Different substanzes can have different mass/volume ratios, and some substances can significantly change this ratio due enviromental conditions, like Water. It makes sense to meassure the capacity of a containier with the volume it can take. For other purpose, the mass is critically. It seems to me that a lot of people have problems grasping the concept.
     
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    Ingots weigh more than ore but take up less volume.

    I have a really sophisticated algorithm that I developed that seems to work for just about anything I have ever built. I stumbled upon it by accident, but now I use it and stick by it religiously. It's the most reliable thing I've ever used in Space Engineers.
     
  16. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,553
    Me I just fill it till it cant hold anymore...I don't need maths to tell me it can't hold anymore it does it fine on its own.. LOL
     
  17. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    Seat of your pants Engineering:

    Fill 'er up, see if it lifts off. no? Add thrusters. still no? Add more thrusters. Still no? Add power to drive the more thrusters. Still even then no? maybe take this time to self inflect on your hoarding problem.

    Then theres the utter manly macho version-
    Careening to the ground not slowing down at all- see above, only now much faster and in freefall.
     
  18. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,240
    Part of the problem is when a player keeps adding more thrusters without realizing that they’re exceeding available power resources resulting in the thrusters being only partially effective. Keep an game-eye focused on the power meter, boys and girls, and don’t overload the system or the very thrusters you’re adding to give you more lift are nothing more than additional dead weight.
     
  19. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    In the end its grizzled PTSD riddled actual in game experience that tells a designer how many reactors/cargo/thrusters is "enough" for a given purpose- be it hauling mined ore back to base, safely landing on a given world (gravity is different on each), or hauling stuff to orbit.

    Same goes for "enough parachutes"
    -or "too much weight to bother trying to fly (11M kg of iron ingots, for example)"
    -or "enough hydrogen tanks" (as size scales how the tanks/thruster use scale with it)

    A common newbie mistake for instance- is making an atmo flying mining ship, that barely hovers when empty. They then wonder why it belly flops and lays there when full. "Enough engines" implies full max weight fly-ability.
    --- Automerge ---
    Ahh.. the infamous "Jayne Cobb" equation. That is a good one. Gets mudder songs made about ya.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,667
    Something I try to do for every build is cut mass.

    Not enough lift? Add more thrusters. Doesn't turn fast enough? Add more gyros. But you start to get yourself into a feedback loop between gyros, power, and thrusters.

    So it's better to cut mass... for instance replacing light armor interiors with interior blocks, catwalks, and window glass (my favorite due to 3x3 window glass being relatively light and cover 1x3x3 maximum dimensions.

    Large grids and small grids have maximum rotational speeds between their center of mass and their furthest block from the center. So you can pile on gyros but your effective rotational speed stays the same though you'll go from 0 to max rotation faster.

    So cut mass where you can, be conscious of where your center of mass is, and build accordingly.

    As far as containers versus maximum lift... I try to be reasonable with capabilities. I will load my cargo containers with ore and test. But I won't go as far as maximum possible mass. Chances are I won't be trying to fly with a maximum load of uranium ingots.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    Real problem comes when you try to stick to standard (vanilla) engines. You just want a ship to fly around with, you need just enough to look good. You build a ship to do some work and you find yourself looking for a spreadsheet to try to figure out how many engines you need to move your cargo and the power source, and pretty soon your ship is all engines and still doesn't carry much. So, you either find a mod to beef up the standard engines or you use modded engines. Personally, I like the wide variety of engine choices out there. I build my ships and then find engines that will get the job done.

    If Keen provided "capital ship" grade engines we wouldn't be doing so much calculating.


    Of course, if Keen did provide "capital ship" grade engines they would be admitting that their current idea of "big" is a bit... conservative ;)
     
  22. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    Players who often meet the above mentioned feedback loop have a basic misunderstanding of the scale of things. In other words, they dream and build and play too BIG.

    In an engine meant for Millenium Falcons scale, players try to build Death Stars, or ok fine, only Star Destroyers. When they wonder "why the fuel drains so fast" or "why jump drives are such short range" or "why gyros are so weak", this is just their expectations Clanging against the game design, and the designers' inbuilt limiting factors.

    Mods to "help address it" arent fixing the problem- theyre just enabling the faulty expectations. And the game engine suffers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    Except the mods address the problem rather nicely, and these days the game engine seems to suffer less. I say this because I'm working on more or less the same ships I started working on five years ago. There was a time when I had to have a separate session for each ship. Now I can easily have my entire fleet several times over in a single session. Whatever ship I have, the main drive is always a mod because the standard engines just don't cut the mustard. Ships that meet the 10,000,000 kg limit qualify as "large" in my fleet and they get modded gyros. If I just used standard engines my large ships would be all engines. Keen may have engineered the game that way, but they also encourage the use of mods Some people believe using more powerful engines is "cheating". Might be, but my ships perform as expected and I believe they look nice and "2077-ish". I've seen vanilla ships that have more engines than my entire fleet. I don't think that's right.

    Anyway, all my cargo vessels can take off from any planet with a full load of whatever fits in the containers. To this day I couldn't tell you what weighs what. My only limiting factor is volume.
     
  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,667

    Yes. But this is exactly why in-game limits on blocks and block types were established. Does your Death Star fit in the confines set by Keen as far as block limits? If you ignore (by switching off) block limits then you've just signed a deal with the devil... Klang...
     
  25. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,553
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    Block limits are to protect performance. They have nothing to do with Klang. You wanna invite Klang? Just attach a piston to a rotor. Leave block limits on.

    Block limits keep new players from having performance issues right away and then assuming something is wrong with the game. They also prevent a single player from blowing up a server.

    Klang laughs at block limits. Laughs.

    (I've heard it. It's... creepy)
     
  27. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    845
    There is also the Engineering custom/culture of "getting to know the girl" of an often used ship design.

    Like an atmospheric miner, once you Fly her around a bit, youll know just from how she complains just how "over loaded" she is weight-wise. Realizing the complaints clearly given by the ship subconsciously is the engineering skill to be mastered... and once realized (often lighting up the pilots adrenaline with a "woaa up up UP" exclamation), a simple glance at the kg of the grid at bottom rt will let the driver know, "ok, apparently 160,000kg total is a bit too much for the old girl", and then for that ship you know when to turn off the drill and return to base.

    The beauty of the SE game, is the depth and the complexity of all of this- in that no 2 ship designs are in anyway comparable. Each is a unique machine, with different parameters. So, truly it is user loyalty (read as "repetitive use over time") to a ship that allows a pilot to "get to know" a ship properly... and similarly why First Test Flights often end.. badly.

    Malcolm Reynolds said it best


    ... crying? no I'm not crying. You're crying. [Damn you Fox forever for cancelling]
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,808
    I agree with everything you said in your post and in the video.

    Thanks, pal, for making me cry.

    And I find myself saying, "What was that?" whenever I fly any of my ships. I swear it's going to end up being my company motto.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1