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Dev Blog Release and Q&A Stream on Tuesday, March 13th

Discussion in 'General' started by Commander Rotal, Mar 12, 2018.

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  1. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    100
    The timer block is really a godsend (although what it can do is WAY more limited than a well-written script. I mean fleet control wtf.) for people like me that rages even with Scilab. It's easier than Redstone as well.
    Still the problem of adding C# directly into the game is, well, unless you are really that butthurt to actually learn C# just to play this game, you are quite limited in what you can really do, such as you can't make a timer block respond to how high the current is generated by the solar panels and let a rotor rotate to maximize efficiency, damage detection and real time display (even though they cause a massive amount of lag). You're pretty much at the mercy of modders who're kind enough to share their wisdom.
     
  2. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    824
    While I agree with most of what you said, not all of it is the player's fault either. Right now, SE is very similar to a sandbox (using your analogy) with cracks and sand pouring out of the sides. There's only so long you can play before much of the sand has leaked out and mixed with the dirt outside of the sandbox.

    Multiplayer is barely playable with 2 people unless you severely restrict yourself to certain blocks and ship sizes to avoid tanking performance or causing the crazy jitter issues where stuff starts blowing itself up, so 'filling the void with other people' is quite a problem right now.

    So on that note, yes, some of it is Keen's fault for not repairing the sandbox so that we can actually use it without having to ductape the sides of it, clean the sand and put it back in every time we want to play with it. There's only so long people will keep a damaged toy before it goes in the trash. ;)

    Keen are of course working on that, but again, placing 100% of the blame on the player because they don't know what to do end-game, due to many other issues in the (core) game itself is not exactly a cool thing to do. It's pretty shit actually.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  3. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    Personally I think this stream was done to feel that we are being kept in the loop and because it was hashed together it just came across completely wrong and now we are in a worse position than we were before because of it. Spots of no one talking/dead air on a stream and a bloody cat mucking around do not make for a great listening and interactive experience especially when its billed as something much more. You should have had a short list of FAQs that you could pick from and then had a 10-20 minute section at the end where you took questions from the stream which you had been writing down while Marek was blabbing on. So now to use the metaphor instead of damping out a fire with water already on its way down you've made it worse by throwing petrol on it. Not great at all.
     
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  4. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    The whole thing about a sandbox. Take a look at other sandboxes. Stuff like Arma, 7 days. What do they have that SE doesn't. The most basic answer to that is combat. They challenge you, through threats. That is something SE is not doing. Even Minecraft has its creepers, zombies, and skeletons. It is a Player vs environment, senario that space engineers fails to, or hardly emulates. I think what we are missing is something to overcome. Survival has always been about overcoming, and thriving in a hostile environment. In SE it is as previously mentioned, handed too you. There is very little, if no chance of "loosing"

    SE seems to be about fighting the game, not the enemys in it. You die way more to bugs then threats.
     
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  5. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,209
    No combat in SE?
    not really, I was just playing Super Engineers Adventures, I left my rover because it was stuck on some rocky terrain and the container was very damaged, so I went to grind a cargo drop 1 km away, when I come back there was a hover pirate ship attacking my rover, it blowed up the cargo container, then plummeted into the ground. I lost almost all my stuff scattered all over the ground. You can also see pirate ships patrolling the whole planet.
    What I mean, maybe SE doesn't have all this in vanilla, (and imo it should be in vanilla) but the game, sry, the sandbox, can do stuff like this and more.
     
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  6. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,064
    Agreed. I did not mean to imply that the player is 100% to blame. Space Engineers does, indeed, suck at being a survival game like Arma or 7 days. In order to get that kind of survival experience in SE you need to use scripts and, as stated earlier, if you can't write a program you have to wait for someone that can, and the problem with THAT is that when someone does, the game changes and their work was for nothing* and to fix it means starting from scratch and it was hard the first time so... you get the picture. That's where we are now.

    At some point the game will get to a place were Keen will swear they won't mess with stuff any more and then we might see some real progress in the survival area. I believe frustration springs from the feeling that SE is really, really close and somehow Keen is going to blow it. Some say they already have. I don't think so.

    I believe it's true that people that tend to stick to pure vanilla content might feel a bit left out. There isn't much block variety, and the "smart" blocks (i.e. conveyors, refineries, batteries, suspensions, assemblers, rotors, etc.) are a challenge to use correctly and efficiently. Frankly, having to grind down a block or place a block sideways to get it to look like something just to stay pure vanilla because Keen doesn't provide that actual block is getting old. Using ten large thrusters to move your ship because there isn't a larger thruster and not using a modded thruster because it might break your game. Or disappear. A survival mode where if you manage to land without dying you have already won. Lack of imagination is not the problem there.

    The problem is that once they put planets in the game, it ceased being a building game. Thing about asteroids is you don't expect anything more from them than some ore and maybe a place to build a base. Nothing else. Not even gravity. Planets, on the other hand, come with all sorts of baggage. We didn't want all those other environments to build in. We wanted them to play in. Keen has made an excellent building environment and a less than spectacular play place.



    I don't know anything about Arma or 7 Days to Die. If they were originally written as single player games and were coerced by fans to add a new completely different environment and go multiplayer then I guess it's ok to compare Space Engineers to those games.






    *but it wasn't for nothing. We all learn from mods that actually worked at lease once. If nothing else, we learned it was possible.
     
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  7. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    Anyone notice SE's Facebook posts lately? They're re-posting comments postively describing Mareks stream as if it was the second coming or that it was very well done. Come on guys what is this? Do we really need propaganda now? Do not double down on this one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    Hah. As if that's anything original to Keen.

    And 8-year olds learn and code with C# every day. It really isn't that hard. PB is no more cheating than redstone. In fact I'll make the claim that redstone is harder to learn than C# to do the same things, because you have to learn and understand circuitry - while in C# the same code will be very short very simple sentences.

    That I agree with. ("import" though? :?)
     
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  9. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    A while ago, even before planets, a few buddies of mine and I came to the conclusion that survival was not going to be something that was.. in depth. I still don't believe it ever will be. The purpose of survival is basically to have a need to make ships and vehicles that.. somewhat realistically would work through piping and inventory management.

    One of the ways we play sometimes is in survival with spacemaster on. You can take damage, you need oxygen, but you don't need to gather resources. This is usually when we have an idea on how to build something, but don't want to make 'cheater' ships. But want to do it fast.

    We prefer to play in regular survival since it encourages a build a better mouse trap mentality when it comes to mining and such. But even then we're honest with ourselves. We're only going to be able to set goals for ourselves, not have the game do it. That's what Space Engineers is, that's what it always has been. Its great for building, even challenging in certain conditions.

    But it has never been beyond that. I'm not saying I don't want it to be more. I wish it would. The potential is there. The Potential is what irks most of you. But at the end of the day, the devs are going to make the game they want to make. And the game we see SE potentially being isn't the game they seem to want to make. I just wish they'd be a bit more honest about it. Say that survival like other games isn't the intention. Just put it to rest.

    But lets be honest. When a developer says they don't wish to talk about something because of expectations. Its because they don't wish to say something they know will be unpopular. I don't understand the reason for being skittish. Just tell the players what game you want to make. If they like it, they'll buy it. If not, they won't. Simple as that. I've been watching Conan Exiles streams for the last month and Funcom is very open to telling players what they intend to do. They just cut sorcery from the list of things that will be available at launch, one of the core elements they advertised for the game.

    But here's my prediction of SE when it launches. What we have now, is what we'll get then. Maybe some more bugs will be fixed. Maybe some better optimization. But in reality, you're going to need a halfway decent computer to brute force the game into a smooth framerate. Survival will be what it is now, a quick start on a choice of planet. Planets will be the obstacle they are now, something you work your tail off to get off and never have a reason to return.

    MP will be like it is now, requiring heavy moderation from server admins. PVP will be what it is with the need of mods for diverse weapons, and a hide and seek gameplay that we see now.

    Is that acceptable? Well yeah. You all have been playing the game I just described for the last few years. Of course it was acceptable. You don't put in 500-2000 hours into a game if it wasn't fun. Hell I just bought FFV on steam and put nearly 30 hours into it and consider it worth my while. Again, the only thing that irks most of us is the potential that SE 'could be'. Its not going to be that. Not unless KSH proves me wrong on release.

    Its not going to tick me off if they don't prove me wrong. I know what SE is. I knew what it was when I bought it several years ago. If I want something else, I will simply (and have) buy something else. SE isn't the only game in its genre. Many other games are popping up and many are trying different takes. We didn't have options several years ago. We've got them now.

    Someone posted community creations stats. You all want to know where community creators went? To other games. They built everything they could build in SE. They beat the game. It is possible. When every idea you can try in SE is tried and then you're limited by even the simple things such as coloring one side of a block. You're going to jump ship and go to a game that lets you do that. That's just one example.

    Another is when you want a better survival game. You're going to go to one, or at least I have for that purpose. With that said, there are things only SE does right. Merging grids, connecting grids, docking for travel, elaborate piping for moving resources, and programming block. Sometimes when you want to build something requiring those features, you can't find it anywhere else. But let me ask this.. is those features there keeping you all here? I find it really hard to believe it is.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but it is an honest question and I am not being critical. Its just for me personally they are not enough except for when I get an itch to build something. But then again my view on the game might be different. I bought it several years ago, but I don't play it every day. I don't play it every week even. I can go months, sometimes only coming back when a major patch hits that adds something interesting. So I don't quite understand the desire to play this as a main game every day. I usually reserve that for whatever MMORPG I'm playing at a given moment (which can change from month to month).

    But to sum this up before I go on anymore tangents. I think what we got is what we're going to get. I'm minorly disappointed in that fact. But I won't hold it against anyone. As I said, every developer makes the game they want to make. Sometimes making the game they're only capable of making. Space Engineers is Space Engineers, nothing really more other than the imaginations we make in it. I've said in other threads, if you've beaten the game, you've beaten it. If you've got over a 1000 hours into it, congrats, you've gotten your money's worth. Just don't stress out over it.
     
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  10. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    They kinda have, though. From the beginning. I mean, originally the mode was called "manual mode", not survival. The community insisted on that term.
     
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  11. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    All valid points Taemien and I agree that stressing out is not necessary, believe me I am only complaining about the stream as currently I enjoy SE campaign/SP and even ongoing MP is as it is now although polishing is never a bad thing. I just think we don't know what is happening next because Keen doesn't know what is happening next. Plop in the wind turbine and those cool looking Hydrogen engines, apply T-cut, wax to a shine then polish it till its a mirror finish. Release that puppy again. Ah, if only it was that simple.
     
  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    Yes they do. They just don't want anyone else to.

    I'd probably have said the same as you not too long ago. But I believe they do know, hence why they're so eager to quell any high expectations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  13. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    170
    It's kind of funny how they are now so keen on presenting Space Engineers with graphics you can't really play with while showing lots of players or NPCs running around (like on the last major release video) while Marek just wants to pretty much revert the game back where it was when he was still working on it. To revert it back to a creative sandbox where you build awkward looking contraptions with outdated building mechanics with oversized rotors and pistons.

    When Marek was talking about maybe removing stuff from the game, it wouldn't surprise me if we would lose the last bit of PVE content like wolves and sabiroids and other survival related stuff.
     
  14. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    907
    One meta I got from the stream was that KSH built the framework sandbox, polishing the graphics and optimizations, so that the modding community can add whatever content they like to it. where at one hand they were open to modding community... now on the other hand they lean on the modding community.. for content.

    Feeling unchallenged by survival and AI threats? play Corruption PVE and The Reavers mods on Lone survivor start, with increased NPC spawn rate mod as well.. and good luck. You may rage quit before finding a way to "survive" as the attacks will come hot, and early.

    But this is the modding community content I was referring to- to add gameplay to the sandbox.

    ..now if they could just merge Corruption to the multiple factions setup of EEM (and get EEM working again), for some npc-npc-police-navy battles, and that would be all the content and populated universe i would ever need in SP
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    I am fervently anti-mod and it's only because of SE. The
    part irks me to no end. I don't want to be forced to download amateur content that the creator can stop updating or remove at any time. That is not a kick to the modders who are very talented, but the idea that mods have become near required and the very fact that mod authoring is a completely voluntary thing which holds no responsibilities.
     
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  16. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    907
    I can see.. if not actually approve of, the game design concept of "build the framework/engine, let the community fill it" [paraphrased because KSH would NEVER admit to this]

    I disapprove of the model overall because it banks overmuch on crowdsourcing content- and given such long and unstable development time, it has devolved into CrowdOfCatsSourcing.. which is much less dependable in reaching the idealized goal.
     
  17. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    510
    Marek Rosa in March, 2014:
    The rest of that blog post details how "survival mode" fulfills that definition of "survival game". He literally explains at length that he believes Space Engineers survival mode was a survival game like other survival games.

    The community isn't wrong to believe that survival mode is intended to be a full-blown survival game. The mistake the community's made is to believe that survival mode was incomplete. By all indications at this point, as far as Marek was concerned, they had a complete survival game in March, 2014.

    In general, the problem is that most of us have been expecting Keen to flesh out features of Space Engineers that it's never had any intention of fleshing out beyond what's already there.
     
  18. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    What I really hope (read: do not expect will happen at all, ever) happens is suddenly one day everyone comes into work and finds an empty bug tracker (woooo) and the game is working nice and stable, or at least as well as they want. Then everyone is unleashed at building cool ships to put in the game with some coherent vision as to how they'll behave in game, and have moderatly interesting AI in thier programmable blocks that does more than just fly towards you. Then we can have a world populated by semi-intelligent cargo/exploration ships or drop pods that react to what you do in order to provide some interactivity in the world so it doesn't feel quite so dead.

    Also, I notice in that dev blog that it says if you die you respawn in your nearest medical room. Has this ever actually been the case? You've been able to pick the spawn location for as long as I remember...
     
  19. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    510
    Yes. And, I think Keen's sort of depended upon a circular set of excuses: the game modes aren't satisfactory, because it's really a sandbox, and it's not satisfactory as a sandbox, because it's really a game.

    The incompleteness of Space Engineers as a sandbox is usually framed in terms of the limited number of blocks available, and in particular, the lack of decorative blocks. Every block is supposed to be functional -- i.e., have a "game" purpose. But even games that are explicitly survival games, and for that matter FPS open world games, have a lot of decorative elements the player can place.
     
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  20. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    Ahem.
    Sounds very much like what I said, didn't it. Maybe I mistermed manual mode as realistic mode but it wasn't far off. Or it was even further back, I forget.

    I never said that the plans didn't change. If the plans hadn't changed the game would only have been a creative-mode ship creator without much else.

    Never said they were.

    including me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  21. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    510
    No, it doesn't.

    @Taemien 's point, as I understood it, was that Keen should just admit they never intended to make a survival game like other survival games. My point was that Marek Rosa said explicitly that "survival mode" was a survival game like other survival games.

    Yes, they changed plans -- which means that, if it wasn't their intention from the absolute beginning to make a survival game, it became their intention. And that blog post was only five months after the initial release of the alpha version of the game in October 2013. It's been Keen's intention that Space Engineers be a survival game, like other survival games, for about 91% of the time the game's been available -- i.e., *almost* from the beginning.

    The problem isn't that Keen didn't actually intend to make a survival game. The problem is that they made a poor one, and have no intention of improving it.
     
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  22. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

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    429
    I think we've reached the point of frustration where the forums will start cannibalizing themselves. Already, Marek had to go to reddit to find the "nice" people for his Facebook and Twitter posts.

    Can we all just agree that SE, if released with no new significant features, isn't the game we want it to be, but it still has some incredible entertainment value?

    I got on over the weekend, after about a year or more break, and started playing Super Engineers Aventures...just to see. For me, it's still got the hook.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  23. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,175
    You people? I like you all! I thank you for getting all the intel together. You are nice. Don't let them get you down

    <3
     
  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    Does to me.

    and I haven't spoken against that.

    All I was saying is that they didn't start out wanting to make a survival game. I wasn't disagreeing with Taemien. Why do people keep putting words in my mouth? Why do people keep insisting I'm saying more than the words I'm writing down? I'm a simple man. There's no reading between the lines with me. What you see is what you get.

    Not to me. I never expected anything huge for the survival, but I did expect something. If there is nothing I don't think I will stick around. However I've got my money's worth.
     
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  25. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    510
    Honestly, in context, I assumed you were. Offline, my partner often expresses frustration that I'll respond to things she's said, without pointing out first that I agreed with what she just said, so it sounds like I'm disagreeing. I keep making the mistake of assuming it's obvious I'm agreeing with her.
    This is true, except that I think a lot of its entertainment value is based on expectations about Space Engineer's potential. We're imagining what we can do with the ships we build -- and since we get a taste of doing some interesting things with ships in SE, the expectation is heightened. If those expectations are finally foreclosed, a lot of the entertainment value will be lost.
     
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  26. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    907
    This is one of the underlying problems with the Information Age, and the Internet bringing everything directly under our noses=

    We are aware a bit too much of how things should/could have been, hundreds/thousands of different players hack knee'd ideas get thrown about- brought to everyone in the worlds' attention... and as a result our Sense of Expectations, or.. maybe more relevant: our Sense of Entitlement begins to go too far. We become worse that Armchair Quarterback game developers...

    We become the definition of Petulant Players during a Beta. And that is a shameful badge to wear.

    Gone are the days where the beta are closed, And we appreciated what we got when it was finally released as-is, without back months/years of Hype Trains poisoning our opinions on how things should be instead.
     
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  27. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    ...
    Learning C# is akin to learning a new language. Sure, its heaps a leaps MUCH better for big projects and altering the existing behavior of the game to something much more precise, thats the nature of code and its beauty.

    But to say it`s easier to learn than redstone? Redstone is much, much simpler for some given tasks like activate a block, move a piston, etc.
    You put down a lever, some redstone that connects to a valid, desired block, and voilla, you can toggle a block on and off.

    It literally couldn`t have less steps and be more intuitive, it however is limiting, and the more complex and bigger a mechanism is, it exponentially grows in size.
     
  28. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    For you perhaps. Learning C# in its completeness is more difficult, of course, I agree. Learning what you need to replicate redstone behavior, however, is not. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
     
  29. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Redstone you can just throw about and something will happen, sure you won't get far past a door that way but you can do that. The same simply cannot be said for the programmable blocks C#. It isn't even close in the ease of use for simple things. You can't just bash your keyboard and expect something to happen, which you pretty much can with redstone.
     
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  30. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,590
    You still need to understand what they do to make anything more than the trivial things. Still, it's irrelevant. Children are learning to code with C# or other similar coding languages every day. For fun. Yes, C# is more difficult to learn in its entirety than redstone. But it's still not difficult.

    True, there may have been advances in the redstone since I played, but back then even such a simple thing as a two-sided toggle switch required very specific placements to work. You couldn't just slap redstone down randomly to do that either.
     
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