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Dev Blog Release and Q&A Stream on Tuesday, March 13th

Discussion in 'General' started by Commander Rotal, Mar 12, 2018.

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  1. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    "Childs can learn C#!!"

    And gorillas may learn sign language, it doesn`t mean its an intuitive language to learn. Children can learn incredibly complex things, but it doesn`t mean those things are any less complex, saying that just because a child can do it, its easy or simple, is a fallacy.

    Again, you need to stoop to a lower level. I can start bashing things together with redstone like an idiot, and sooner or later, I`ll get an understanding of how it works, because it has an intuitive nature, It`s easy to follow, The same cannot be said of code.
     
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  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    I learned to code as a kid, I didn't have any internet to help me. There was no Google. I'm no smarter than anyone else. I learned by reading code. If I can, anyone can. All one needs is the interest. And yeah, actually, code is intuitive once you understand the basics. Why? Because it has consistent rules that it must uphold, because it's to be read and understood by a computer. Once you've learned one programming language, it's easy to learn others because the principles are the same.

    I say it's easy to learn because I've done it. So either you'll have to admit it's not difficult, or you'll need to claim I'm smarter than you. Now I don't believe that for a second.

    Also I say it because I see people start out from scratch and learn it in the discord ingame programming channel all the time.

    The word "intuitive" is subjective, by the way. What's intuitive to you is not necessarily so to me. It depends on your frame of reference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  3. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    -Actually, you may be smarter than me, who knows.

    -That`s the point, you didn`t start from "scratch", you had an already working example, as in, you didn`t open a C++ UI, looked at a list of statements, functions, symbols, etc and started to mash them together to see if they worked, and then to code that way, that`s not something you can do with code. But that IS possible with minecraft`s redstone; its much more accessible and intuitive as it has a visual cue if the redstone is powered. It`s just a lot more basic in nature, for better or worse.

    -I definitely agree

    -I agree too (Unless the strutcture of the code itself is unintuitive), key word is on "basics" though.

    -It is, I agree, it depends a lot on knowledge and previous experiences by the subject.

    Anyways, I`m not trying to say redstone is superior to code, In any case, I`d be advocating for timer blocks which are superior to redstone by a very long margin, as having advantages of being just as accessible as redstone is with a lot more potential outputs for blocks. Just that redstone is more simple in nature (1s and 0s) compared to code.
     
  4. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    I guess what we need clarification on is what we expect a survival game to be in 2018. Then what we expected it to be in 2014. Then what Marek thinks survival is in 2014 and now.

    To suffice what all has been said... there's no way any consensus is going to happen there lol. I'm definitely not going to try.
     
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  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Well, this is when we got "Survival Mode"

    Keen's definition for those not willing to read the blog at the time was, "survival mode (manual building, death, re-spawn)."

    Then, this happened Christmas Day 2014.

    Procedural asteroids, and a "world" 1,000,000,000 kilometers across (read the log. I'm not making that figure up). One BILLION kilometers. Across. The volume is 1,000,000,000 cubed. Crossing it at top game speed would take 552 years. Why did they do it?

    In the blog they explain that worlds had previously been limited to 10 kilometers. My understanding is that Keen's game engine, Vrage, was making calculations using single-precision 32-bit floating point numbers. Why? because the physics engine they use, Havok, uses those kinds of numbers. However, 32-bit single precision numbers led to what they referred to as "visible imperfections" on objects further away than 10 kilometers. So it was either limit world size to 10 km or have Vrage calculate using double-precision 64-bit floating point numbers which, they said, was the easy part. Havok only understands 32-bit single precision, though. What to do? Divide this immense world into "clusters", the smallest of which would be 20 km. Havok's limitation is negated because it never gets a number to work with that's bigger than it can handle, and Vrage becomes precise enough to minimize visible imperfections. So now it was possible to have planets far enough apart to be "realistic".

    July 9 2015 Keen gave us a faster way to travel.
    November 12 2015 we got a reason to go "long" distances. Planets, placed no closer than 10 kilometers apart, with a "jump drive" with a minimum jump distance of 5 kilometers. That meant either a minimum two hour trip at top speed to the nearest planet, or a significantly shorter time with a jump drive in a Keen-sized ship. However, a complete Keen "star system" would be about 40 kilometers from end to end. You could fit it in a 50 km "world" except that earthlike is in the center, so to keep things neat and tidy you could use a 100 km "world". That would be a world with four planets with moons and more asteroids than you can shake a stick at. Undoubtedly more space that actually gets used in even the busiest servers. However, the default world size is unlimited, and most people just go with that. So if 100 kilometers will do, why, then, do we get 1,000,000,000 kilometers? If every man, woman and child on the planet had a copy of SE they could all play in a one billion kilometer world and still encounter less people than they do in real life. Not to mention that there's probably no computer you can buy without a government grant that could host everyone on the planet that actually does own a copy of SE. I'm not aware of a server that can consistently and reliably host much above 100 players. The only thing that might draw the average player more than 10 kilometers away from a planet is another planet. "Exploring" just gets you the same three or four asteroids with slight variations, and perhaps a chance to encounter an "exploration vessel" that will likely just get ground up.

    I don't know. Maybe it's just me thinking they might have something up their sleeve, maybe they had an idea but had to give it up, or maybe there was no idea and they just did it because they could. In any event, whatever plans they have for Survival can't be stalled because there isn't enough room :D
     
  6. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    dang! I can see that I put a Like on that survival video, but I don't even remember seeing it
     
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  7. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649


    In the easy start games, Earthlike-Marslike is about 1900 km and Earthlike-Alien is about 5700 km.
    We need a "confused" post reaction.
     
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  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    Because the previous limit was too small and this is simply the next single step up. It all comes down to how coordinates are stored. Ergo, they didn't deliberately make the size that large, it's simply the result of the upgrade.

    (edit) way to actually read the post, Mal. Thumbs up to self! :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  9. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    As someone who'd quite enjoy that on a personal level* i can asure you that this is not the case. They'd actually have to work quite a bit on Creative Mode** to make it the focus of the game.

    * as in: revert focus back to Creative, not remove Survival. In an ideal world, having Survival should not impact my gameplay at all, as such i see no point or joy in taking it away from players who like Survival. The problem is, though, that Survival HAS impacted my gameplay. Same as mods. Let me elaborate a bit by responding to this:

    I would actually go ahead and respectfully disagree with that. It's one thing to look at an early access development game and not be able to do everything one wants but we're nearing completion now (and have been for a while; i was wrong on the Christmas release but i apparently i wasn't wrong with everything else - stick a fork in it, gameplay's done) and i can't even put down a friggin' table without having to use Rotors. Which they fucked up by removing the Rotor Lock. No, the new one doesn't work well for the Rotor Trick, which used to be an EMBRACED feature. And that's a good third of my point here; the game has actually regressed in a few areas. Sure, overall performance is better than at the start, but it's also gotten worse over time. Mega Projects that used to work fine now have physics issues. Rotors are unuseable for interiors; i hear you can do something clever with Landing Gears but A those are huge as hell and B i wouldn't use any of those bastards on any of my ships anymore. The default game looks terrible now. We're still missing absolutely ESSENTIAL blocks to interior decorating (and, for small ships, a big chunk of functional ones).
    When was the last time Creative Mode got anything nice that wasn't some MP Admin Tool? When was the last time we got an actually useful Block for building? Where's all the missing Armor Ramp connections? Where're tables, toilets, beds? Longer Ramps?
    Where's my NPC Block to lay down some standing, sitting, working cr - you know this one REALLY pisses me off; there's anywhere from half a dozen to nearly unlimited immersion to be had from JUST placing down immoveable Treebeards with idle animations. Have a standing one. One standing with just a rifle out. One kneeling and welding. A grinding one. Have one sitting in a cockpit. One standing around, tapping buttons. Give them the LCD panel code and look what people will pull off for questing. Or in Scenarios. The only thing more sad than a ship without a crew is a ship without a name, which, incidentally, annoys me to another point, the lack of hull lettering. Ever tried to use LCDs for that? It's bull.

    No. No we can NOT all agree that SE is good for shipbuilding. When and if they fucking finish up Small Ship blocks to have everything Large Ships already have - THEN and only then can we START to talk about getting anywhere.


    ** i realize you didn't literally mean Creative Mode, or at least i think you didn't, but this one just ticks me off. Survival was a horrible mistake. MAYBE not on principle, but certainly the way it was implemented and then just left to rot.
     
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  10. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    285
    That's not true, Malware. People have natural talent and aptitudes for certain things more than other people. You may find something easy, but for someone else, that very same thing is very hard. On the other hand, for that other person things that come natural and are easy for them to do, are not easy for you and you will struggle with it and find great frustration with no progress.

    It's human nature.

    Personally I find programming languages very hard, and I have tried to learn Basic, then C+, then Visual Basic and got nowhere. I have C++ for Dummies, and literally cannot learn the programming language to save my life. My father is even a programming engineer and he has tried to teach me from an early age. Even though I was always around programming languages since the time I could read I never developed an aptitude for it, or an ability to learn to code/read code in the way you describe. Real programming language. (I can create code objects with user based "scripting languages" that are hard coded by someone else, and extensively documented. Basic function examples where you copy the text and replace "apples" for "oranges". Nothing in depth. That requires actual thinking in terms of programming language. My brain is just not wired for that. I can't think in that way. I can't speak that language.)

    I am however, very artistically inclined and I draw very easily while others find it very hard to do the same, at the same age/grade level in school.
    Everyone excels at different things. But not everyone can master every discipline or find it as easy as someone else does.

    The mind is an incredibly complex machine and what you find easy might be very hard for others. In some cases of autism, the person Is actually a genius. I think that's what the show "The Good Doctor" is supposed to be based on. (But I don't watch it, so I can't speak for their premise 100%). It doesn't mean people who can't grasp certain things are dumber, it just means they are naturally suited towards other things. Not everyone is good at math for example, but they can excel in creative writing and the arts. The people who are good at math, are usually not as good in literary classes or if they are, tend to be very quiet in them (do not enjoy them, not their favorite subject). If you are good at both, you have a great aptitude to be a lawyer, enjoy making lots of money.

    I'm generalizing but the point is: it's very hard to be good at something you don't like.

    ...You can imagine my disappointment when Keen introduced the C++ programming block. It brought back childhood traumas (of trying and failing to learn), heck, any programming language at one point.

    It went against the very grain that I thought was the best thing about Space Engineers - to bring players that have no coding experience and let them experience creative building in the way only a programmer or a 3D artist could achieve. I think that's the appeal of voxel games. You don't need to learn anything to create something cool. And I think Keen could push it a lot further if Marek wasn't so obsessed with his AI project. A lot of things in the game are just hastily thrown together but it is all disguised under a visage of beautiful hand crafted blocks and a realistic rendition of space.

    Heck, in 5 years, how much has Space Engineers truly changed other than for the addition of planets? We still have the same blocks, place them in the same way, but the game has gotten a visual makeover almost every other major update. And still, from now on, they are focusing on optimizing "the core". As if we now have a "complete" game. That tells you a lot about the development of this game - the attention, the heart in developing functionality and expand user interaction is non-existent in the actual game. They want to sell you a shiny box because it is a shiny box, but inside it's empty.

    But I will not say that attention does not exist, because it does. It's just focused elsewhere. It's called Good AI. And as you can probably tell, I hate that thing with a passion.

    Going back to the programmable block... True creative power is measured in terms of being able to affect the game or achieve creations in a way that is not dependant on having outside knowledge of how to do something. The programmable block can unlock, many, many new things in ways of interacting with blocks, of creating ships that are truly a work of art. That thing is really powerful. But, wait, you need to be able to hardcode yourself in order to use that feature. Keen went a bit further. Heck, if you are really adventurous, go and code in the actual code itself since we made it open source. Yeah, thanks Keen, that helps a lot.

    How many users can truly use the programmable block in order to experience Space Engineers to its true potential? I am guessing not a lot, or at least not the majority.

    If I told you that I am adding a way to create your own decals and stamp them on your ships in order to make them feel like they are your own, would you be excited? I'm guessing that would be a really popular feature. Not so popular if I told you that in order to do this, you have to have an understanding of visual arts and know how to be able to render and composite the appropriate core shadows, bounce light, color and saturation information yourself. If in general, you needed to have the skills to paint Magic the Gathering cards in order to use the feature that I just gave you, that probably wouldn't be a popular feature, would it?

    But, those who are artistically inclined would find it awesome and great and could create some great looking ships. And I, being artistically inclined, might even tell other users, but painting is easy, it just takes PRACTICE! You see where I'm going with this?

    Point is: I was sold a game, not a programming language in order to make use of said game. Keen would rather spend time and money, that make no mistake, come from sales of SE and ME, or order to create an independent AI that is able to intuitively gauge a user's intent and have it perform a task without them having to write hardcode of it (have the program doing so).

    Whatever happened to just adding water to Medieval Engineers? You know, an example of developing something that you could be practically used in your game. Since when did that turn into, hey let's create the world's first true AI? And apparently, water is too hard since it is not being added, so... let's create the world's first true AI, that sounds so much easier, instead?...

    If they tell you they are getting their funding separately, they lie. I don't see a Good AI kickstarter for them, and I don't see them selling shares in their company in order to generate revenue to be able to do that sort of thing on the side. And since money doesn't magically materialize out of thin air, we are probably the ones paying for their research project. We are paying for games in which development is funneled into R&D that will never make the light of day in said games. No matter what Marek says. No Good AI agents are going to be coming to your door to offer their services in piloting your ship or mining your resources.

    Meanwhile, go play with your hardcoded programmable block in Space Engineers. I can lend you my copy of C++ for dummies. You're welcome.

    But wait... It gets better... They are not actually doing R&D for their current tech and taking voxel games to the next level... They are working on developing a TRUE AI, that can create a game from you from scratch, and do whatever else you tell it to - but hey at that point you won't even need programmers - this is really futuristic stuff. This is Marek's pet project, his "grand vision".

    Wait...wait.....I think I'm getting a vision... create the world's first true AI, *in order* to code that water for Medieval Engineers that you originally found too hard to code, right? Right? That's... That's genius!

    As if that's not delusional enough, a team of 40 people, getting funding from who knows where, but probably from a share of sales of its own games, could accomplish a task like this when every major engineering corporation in Silicon valley from Intel, to IT, to IBM, to you name it, are working on creating true computer artificial intelligence. Nope, Keen are going to accomplish it first guys, you read it here first.

    Invest now, before they are going to blow up like Blizzard and you'll be sorry you didn't buy that stock.

    It's laughable. Delusional. Impractical. They could have used that development time and money to create something sensible for us GAMERS here, posting on their forums, and playing their games. But for whatever reason, they just don't. And don't hold your breath that development in Medieval Engineers is going to be any better than the development history of Space Engineers. They will patch in a few features, (them taking out their major selling point of originally being able to freely compound blocks was a nice start too - apparently Marek didn't have the vision to fix texture "z-fighting", but he's going to create the first true AI instead, don't worry guys) they will hack in some new plants, add a farm, rehash a few systems every now and then, and visually update the game ten times. Then it will be "done" and they will focus on optimising "the core".

    Yup, bright future ahead.

    An empty, heartless box called Space Engineers (oh what could have been). But hey, it looks better than any other game of its type out there. Sort of. If the HDR wasn't broken and other effects they tacked on that not all people like on a unanimous basis had their own graphic toggle. Hastily done, no real depth to it. Sort of like the rest of the game. (I'm not sure if you can actually call graphics options depth, but there you go.)

    ---

    Sorry about the rant, I originally logged to respond to Malware's post since I felt I had something to add but somewhere along the way, the dam broke. I am just so tired of these meaningless updates with no real meat on the bone and to be honest, the new development cycle basically translates into "we're running out of money", so "we'll do things when we can", but "hey, we'll keep you posted".

    I've seen this kind of thing before. Early access is littered with horror stories. It's amazing that Keen have stayed afloat and been seemingly unaffected without really producing any results (SE will probably be their first title to come out of early access, and to my knowledge their first finished game). But even they can't survive without a solid development framework that is solely focused on their games, period. To launch a bare bones working title while doing expensive R&D, that has no *current* relevancy to your game, on the side is just asking for financial trouble and is honestly very arrogant. Honest companies have gone under during EA for far less grandiose sins, just for running out of money while actually working 100% on their games and not 50% on some secret, futuristic project that wants to compete with, I dunno, NASA when I read Marek's blog posts about Good AI.

    It's just not realistic and if I was a developer working for Keen, I would seriously try to talk some sense into Marek. Though at this point I think he needs more of an intervention. But it seems he has surrounded himself with competent honest people who work hard but are "yes-men". "Yes-men" is not derogatory but refers to the difficulty people have with standing up to an authority figure - and Marek can be quite over the top when he wants to be. A good sales man, but if no one tries to reign him in when his zeal gets too ahead of himself, he will run you guys into the ground. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

    There is only so long you can sell a half finished title to fund your next half finished title while also working on an experimental project that will likely never see the light of day. You are a game studio after all, not.. IT. Leave the world's first true AI to Silicon valley, for all your sakes. Develop your engine, develop your tech - don't develop tech that has no working knowledge to your current tech. In other words, tech that is not relatable.

    -
    Marek, we're not mean people, we don't hate you, we just don't see things as you do. Just because someone agrees with something you said doesn't mean they have your best interests in mind, or that they are the "nice" ones, it just means they want to get in your good graces no matter the costs. It's because they like *you*, not necessarily a game or your opinion. It's when someone becomes a cult personality.

    If we didn't like you or your games we wouldn't be here arguing with each other and post essay long threads. We just want the best for SE and ME, and most of all, you guys who have worked so hard and when you see a friend take a wrong turn, you do your best to set them straight - not cheer them on to their own demise. It's healthy to take in criticism. Keeps you healthy, keeps you real. Wanting to hear only good stuff said about you all the time and filtering out "the bad" is very damaging to your psyche. Sometimes white isn't always good and black isn't always evil, you know?

    For me, I honestly say, drop Good AI, salvage whatever development you can from it for your current games and terminate future Good AI development. Focus development on things that can improve the game *now*. Not in 10 years. "Maybe" "foresee this", or "foresee that", doesn't help SE or ME now be better games. It doesn't make them better games later. If you guys don't stick to the present and set realistic goals, sooner or later, some new fresh company will invade your turf with a competitive title that does all that SE can do and more, and will blow you guys out of the water - and all you will have to show for it is some half baked AI that has no practical application - you will be lost as a studio. As a whole.

    Is gaming no longer your passion?

    Please, stick to gaming - leave the NASA stuff to NASA.
     
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  11. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    @Tenzo My friend... that is exactly what I've been saying.

    What I have been saying all along is if you have the interest, learning C# is easy. If you don't have the interest, it's not - but that applies to anything. C# is easy to learn, but hard to master.

    Also you don't need to use the programmable block. That was never the point. It's an option. And as I made clear I would welcome a simpler solution, I was even part of those who tried to get them to go that direction before the PB was first released. What I reacted on was the statement that it was somehow "cheating". Since I am the author of the current programmable block compiler, I get protective. I spent a lot of time to get it to work right.
     
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  12. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    429
    Oh, is THAT what brought this all on? Geez, was that statement of mine misconstrued.

    I LOVE the PB block and what it adds to Space Engineers. At least, the capability it adds. I don't feel it's wrong, or *actually* cheating to use it. It should be used...all over the place.

    The comparison was to redstone in Minecraft, and what I meant was that it felt to me that with Keen giving us a PB to add capability to the game was kind of a shortcut compared to the redstone system added to Minecraft, because the redstone system was actual physical things in the game (individual blocks and pieces) that had properties that had to work together and had to have a lot of thought as a system within the game, how they were acquired through resource gathering, how they affected gameplay and game speed, etc. With Keen's approach, it's more like *plop* there's your programmable cube. They shifted the burden of figuring it out and making it work to the players instead of working through the intricacies themselves. Hence, a shortcut. hence why, to get things to work with the PB block, you have to add tokens to the names of things in order to identify them. That in itself is very cludgey and prone to error, and is why I consider the PB to have been a simple approach to adding flexibility to the game. Simple to implement on their end, hard for the average player to utilize on this end. I consider Minecraft's approach to have been the reverse.

    I was not looking to minimize the effort that I know goes into creating the scripting API and the PB compiler. And I'm pretty much done comparing Minecraft to SE, because there really is no comparison. I've played hundreds of hours of Minecraft and really don't see going back. I've played hundreds of hours of SE and can't wait to go back.
     
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  13. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    1. Programmable blocks are not a huge part of the game. They've had hardly any priority at all, and most of the development after initial release (which didn't require much work on their part, btw, I think there was talk about one programmer one week or something) has been done by the community - more specifically yours truly. If I wanted something to work in the PB, I had to do it myself. They didn't want to spend the time.

    2. "just adding water to Medieval Engineers" There is no "just" to adding water to games as dynamic as ME and SE. That's a huge undertaking. Been discussed to death.

    3. Keen isn't trying to make AI. GoodAI - a completely separate sister company is doing that, with their own specially hired employees and funded separately by Marek Rosa's own personal money, no lies, this is fact and information about this can be and has been found. Anything else is conspiracy theory nonsense. Just search for the various posts right here in this forum, the evidence is there. Mr. Rosa can do whatever he wants with the money he's earned. There's no kickstarter because they didn't need it. It has little to nothing to do with the games other than that they happen to have the same CEO. The employees of Keen are working on the games.

    There's plenty of real issues to complain about with Keen. No need to make up stuff.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  14. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    Imo problem seems to be that se developers are trying to make se as good building game as possible. Afaik it is on very top end. Building mechanics are amazing. It gives lots if tools for the sandbox.
    However.
    Many people dont fully utilize the building system -> they dont see the strengths of se when compared to competitors.

    I can definitely see that if one would play SE without building anything else than spaceships game starts to look like empyrion with bad survival.

    SE has strong sandbox identity yes.
    However this allows it to be many things.

    Also things like learning how to use new scripts makes new ideas to blossom in your head as new possibilities arise.
    I personally enjoy se currently very much.
    Survival could be made a lot better with quite small tveaks.

    Better ai models have already been done by rdav. Building really challenging enemy fleets that hunt you down in space is already possible.

    Ground encounters have been made too.
    Station encounters have also been made.

    Dangerous encounters, better balance and reasons to go to planets and survival would be a lot better. Maybe they will find a way.
     
  15. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    523
    What keeps me from going on at length about GoodAI, is GoodAI's roadmap, since it's so farcical that I can't think how to top it.
     
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  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    I'll take your word. Never really tried to go from one planet to another. Only once in 6900 hrs, to be precise. I've been shipbuilding. Never needed to go anywhere. My point was that planets are really close together and if you have jump drives they're functionally only inches apart, in a world that would take five hundred years to cross. Turns out the reason is:
    So we went from 10 kilometers to 1,000,000,000 kilometers because 10 was not big enough and one billion is just the next step up. Glad they didn't take TWO steps.

    What gets me is that they never seemed to want the game to take place outside the original ten kilometers. What a waste.

    Gimme a break, Commander! Our relationship began because you insisted SE was a building game and I was adamant that it was not. What next? You never really liked My Little Pony? Was that a ruse?

    ;)

    Actually, I was implying that SE is a good building game, but not a great one, for all the reasons that you lined out and that I have agreed with over the years. Yes, SE can't do water or orbital mechanics but Jesus how hard is it to make a table? Answer is it's not hard but why do you want a table? They can give us planets but not small block windows. The hallmark of SE is destructible blocks, implying that they wanted players to ram ships into each other (background video when you start the game seems to demand it), which means either consciously or unconsciously they wanted us to play with the ships we built, apparently so long as "play" consisted solely of building a ship and ramming it into something. That might sound weird but that's pretty much all you saw on Twitch back in the day. To this day most players don't go much further than that.

    My personal interest in staying with SE is because Modders supply the blocks I really want and I can make really nice builds (in my opinion). I don't stress about what to do next once I've built something because from the very beginning I have had a goal that has yet to be accomplished. For the first time I am beginning to suspect I may not reach that goal because in a One Billion Kilometer wide world I can't have a one kilometer long ship with an engine large enough to move it. I can rest my character in a highly detailed cryopod but not a bunk. By 2077 there's no hygiene. If I need stairs I have to use a... window?

    I don't think the problem is staff stretched thin working on several different projects. That's not the case. I believe every staff member is dedicated to whatever project they are working on be it SE or ME or GoodAI. I believe everyone works really hard on SE. I'm not sure if anyone there really plays SE. At least, beyond the ship ramming thing. They don't see the value in decorative blocks or customized characters, and don't seem to understand why anyone would make a ship bigger than Big Blue, and then try to put an interior in it. They don't see it, so we're not getting it.


    They're being cagey enough to make me suspect they have something really big left to show us. I hope it's not SE on Xbox cause that would be big but only for people that don't have pc's and have never played a pc game. They won't know what they're missing. Maybe they're going to do the SE "game" on Xbox with less building and more running around shooting enemies. A game that tells the SE background story. You will be Treebeard, descendant from a long line of Treebeards dating back to Medieval times, a hapless Space Engineer finding HIMself trapped on an alien planet with a crashed ship.

    The excitement. The adventure. I can't wait.










    No Kappa emote. Dang.
     
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  17. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Mh. That's a bit of a misleading statement. They most assuredly can give us small block windows. They don't want to because small ships gone wild yada yada performance blah blah ancient argument...

    other than this pointless point (sorry it's getting late) I agree completely.
     
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  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,955
    Now that we're not doing the weekly hype-update, laying out a road map would make sense. From what I remember Marek had stepped away from SE and ME. Now he's reclaimed the title of "creative director" for both. I think that's why "shit-on-glass" came back with a vengeance as well as the inappropriate lighting.

    I had high-hopes for Space Engineers. But in with bang and out with a whimper is what I'm anticipating. It could have been a lot better under the right leadership, but we get what we get. I think Miner Wars II has about run its development cycle.
     
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  19. Arcturus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,649
    Plus also note that small grids have full/default physics, while large grids are set up so players cannot push them. It prevents feet from kicking the floor away when you walk or jump on the ship.
     
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  20. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    "All one needs is the interest"
    Interest is not something that just comes up with the right state of mind, one needs to feel emotionally invested into that specific subject (positively), and that can be very, VERY hard depending on the subject and the previous experiences of someone with it. You can`t say that all you need is interest to do something because it negates what that person`s feelings or motivations are for not being interested, as if he could just forget those reasons.

    It`s not that it`s a false statement, its true. But it`s not going to change that there will be highly interested people, so-so people, and people that really don`t want anything to do with coding. But using that statement to strengthen your argument makes you seem insensible to anyone which is not interested in coding.

    Also, you used learning as something easy, and mastering as something hard. But mastering something involves learning all there is to learn, thus if you`re are not a master, then you haven`t finished learning, thing is, where the line is drawn, saying learning is "easy".

    Code for me is easy to understand, but I definitely have not learned it, I may understand its structure, but I haven`t developed my abilities in actually being able to structure something new, and dominating that is the dead of me.

    Finally. Anything can be easy, or hard, outside of interest, depending on the resources you`re given and how familiarized you are with it.

    1 + 3 is easy its 4. everybody knows and its really easy.

    but if I used some obscure numerical system, no one would have an idea, even though the operation itself is kindergarden level.

    ---

    BTW, this reply is mostly useless, as I`m kind of just arguing semantics and small things, I`m kind of just defending my position, not trying to discredit your accomplishments or tarnish computer languages.
     
  21. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Yes you are arguing semantics and putting meanings into my posts that aren't there...

    I have not once claimed that interest is something that "comes up with the right frame of mind". If one holds no interest to do a thing, one does not do it. If one holds the interest, one pushes forward.

    No, you can't define "learning" that way. The basics of C#, what you need to understand in order to write ingame scripts, is easy. The whole of C# contains some rather advanced concepts that is difficult to get right even for seasoned programmers - but that you don't need for scripts. Again something I have not veered from.

    Since it now feels like this argument is being done for the sake of arguing, I will leave it dead.
     
  22. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,979
    @Stardriver907 i'm just... so tired of Keen's mishandling of SE. It's exhausting.
     
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  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    I hear you, Commander. I agree in principle. But...

    It's their game. It's not fair to say they are mishandling it. The frustrating part comes from not being in on the handling.

    Nothing in the world would give me more pleasure than to be able to walk into KSH headquarters, usher Marek out of the building, and then take command. I'm absolutely positive that if I were in control the game would turn out perfect. Since everyone agrees with me, I'll move on...

    It would be a dick move, seeing as how they took four years to set everything up for me and back then the furthest thing from my mind was creating a new space-based video game from scratch using my own game engine. So I cross my fingers and hope that some of these things that clearly are not going to hurt the game such as functional decorative blocks and character choices will make their way in so that people won't feel forced to resort to mods in order to enjoy the game.

    In fact, it wouldn't hurt now if Keen gave us a new block every week or so sort of like how they used to. That way there would be something to look for every week and there would be no expectations of any significant change to the code (which is why I would hold off on actual features). It's clear people want these things and it's just as clear they want them from Keen. If they can give us planets and multiplayer, they can give us functional bunks and a 1x1 staircase.












    Notice I didn't ask for ladders. Some dead horses you just have to stop flogging.
     
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  24. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    285
    I wasn't implying that adding water is easy. I was referring to the launch of Medieval Engineers, where he did an interview with Last Stand Gamers, I believe... (was a long time ago), and he talked about their plans for ME, and one of those was the very difficult task of adding water. He didn't make any promises, but stated that "we'll try" to add water to Medieval Engineers.

    Allright, all cool... Well, months go by and months go by, and then all of a sudden he jumps ship to develop the world's first artificial intelligence with no word on what he has said prior in the context of his plans. He announces Good AI sometime after the launch of ME. That was the context. (I probably should have just mentioned that, but, wall of text).

    Just out of nowhere. First you are working on adding water to a game and then you are launching a totally different project that has no relationship to the two games you are already developing. They are far from finished and one is in its infancy. You announce the ambitious task of developing water for it and then jump ship into a different software space altogether, without word on your prior commitments. It's not professional. It's not good work ethic. And adding water to a voxel game is considerably easier than creating the world's first artificial intelligence. I mean just think about it.

    Keen is a gaming house. ME was trying to find its footing, to find its identity and from trying to add water Marek goes to launching a separate project to compete with NASA or I don't know, IT, the Pentagon? Don't get it. But I'll leave it there. No water. No bringing compound blocks to SE. No word, just the complete 180 degree shift in focus on his part.

    ---

    "personal money". What does that mean. Keen is not a non profit organization. They are not Blender Foundation.

    They use the profits of the game, to a) pay their studio, their rent, equipment. b) pay their staff, and c) pay Marek's salary as the head of the company. A lot of his "personal money" has come from profits of the game. He has been CEO for a number of years now, and yes I imagine he has a lot of money. Nothing wrong with that, but to take yourself, your interests, and your personal finances to fund a completely unrelated project to the two games your studio has not even finished and you are still paid a salary for as their CEO, the CEO of Keen, is very tacky and just frankly irresponsible.

    So unless he is Donald Trump, to pay for his own hobby with his own money, I think a lot of his "personal money" has come from the salary he got and still receives as CEO of Keen, which in turn comes from the profit of its sales. SE, ME, and Miner Wars? (I don't know anything about that game.)

    So... not making stuff up, it's just putting two and two together.

    Personally I just hope he has not taken a loan out to pay for Good AI or ever takes out a loan to pay for it.

    If Marek went on Shark Tank (I dunno if you watch that show. It's about businesses coming in and trying to get investors from a selection of rich people by giving them a sales pitch about their business and model going forward for a share of their company.) So if Marek went on Shark Tank today, and they found out about his R&D, which he probably would hesitate to disclose unless asked, he would not get a single dime. They would laugh Keen out the door because they (the investors) would never get their money back never mind a return on their investment.

    The investors ask a) what are your profits and b) how much do you pay yourself. Sometimes if that ratio is really disproportionate they immediately cut any deal. Obviously we don't know how much Marek pays himself.

    But they would find out that software sales for Keen have gone well but they are stagnating; they are not really growing as a company, and their CEO is sinking his free time and money into other projects... Well that would be the icing on the cake to make them sign off on any possible deal. Sometimes they make an exception if the individual asking for capital is a hustler and 100% dedicated to their project. Marek jumps from one thing to another and you never know when one day his interests might shift and leave the other projects in self-maintenance mode. I don't like that, and neither would an investor.
     
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  25. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Yeah. Those were heady times. After planets everyone at Keen thought anything was possible. Point is these days anyone that thinks either game will get fluid water is just dreaming. Marek didn't do a 180. He gave a sliver of hope when there wasn't one.

    Marek uses his own money on GoodAI, which means he does not use money intended for SE or ME to fund GoodAI. No good businessperson puts all their eggs in one basket. Frankly, I don't think SE's problems have anything to do with how much money Marek spends on it. If that were the case, plowing his own salary back into the game would not help. If you put two and two together you get twenty two. Marek didn't suddenly decide to work on GoodAI. You just suddenly heard about it. I don't know what you know about investors, but it doesn't work anything like Shark Tank. Donald Trump (the businessman, not the President) doesn't pay for anything with his own money. Not even his hobbies. Not even his lunch. If you can't get other people to pay for your stuff you shouldn't be in business. Rich people stay rich because other people fall all over themselves gifting them, hoping they'll get something in return. In the real world I don't think Marek has any trouble borrowing money.



    I'd also like to say that anyone that actually enjoys playing SE probably would not have much trouble learning C## if they don't know it already. Programming languages are not inherently hard to learn. The languages are written so that they make sense to people. The machines themselves don't use them. They convert what you wrote into something they can use, and then they execute. I like to think of commands as gears and to me a program is clockwork. If you know what gears you have available you can assemble them to perform a task. Tricky part is that there's more than one way to assemble the gears to perform any particular task, so no one can teach you "the way". You don't have to learn "the way." You just have to learn "a way". You get good at figuring out "ways" and they start calling you a programmer.
     
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  26. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,133
    *kicks in the door, sits backwards on a chair*
    Ok, you probably know what I'm here for.
    It ain't the programming discourse, though I will say that learning something contrary to one's personality will give one a headache and the desire to rage quit.
    It ain't the discourse over the state of the game. I like the Lego sandbox in space concept and I will keep liking it. Maybe I'm just easily amused. *Shrugs*
    I'm here to raise some hell about the lack of representation. You've already given Meow Captain the impression that you're sexist. His YouTube video will spread that impression. I'm starting to believe it myself, that this is a deliberately discriminatory decision, and I tend to believe the best of people! Avoiding the question is the worst possible reaction! What. The FUCK. Is going on? Give us a straight goddamn answer! Are you just gonna NOT bother to make the relatively simple import from Medieval?
     
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  27. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Medieval characters don't have to deal with zero gravity or changing gravity types. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it's a relatively simple import. SE and ME use the same engine but they are used differently. The Medieval character may have started out as an SE character, but the SE character has changed a couple times since then. The ME character may be too simple for SE.











    Or, Marek hates women and this is how he expresses it. "Sure, in Medieval times a woman could be an engineer but, 2077? Pfft, give me a break!"
     
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  28. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    I`d actually say they are mishandling SE and potentially ME, considering what happened with the whole minerwars debacle, not listening to certain things or communicating security to your players is in no way shape or form a positive thing in this environment, there are too many loose ends.

    SE could be better; bugs and glitches don`t stop the community from enjoying it, it`s stagnation.

    (As far as I`m concerned)
    --- Automerge ---
    It is a simple export.

    However, you might find issues if the model`s bones don`t line up with a body model (causing potential weird animations) But its just the face... and we got a deer astronaut.
     
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  29. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    285
    Yes, stagnation.

    And the whole stubbornness against new ideas, which I can only imagine having watched the latest dev stream, comes directly from the top.

    This is the kind of stuff cheaper Indie games can do:



    I can only drool when I think about moving doors, laser doors and rails in Space Engineers. Logic blocks on ships, on weapons? I mean honestly if these guys can do it, why can't our developers give stuff like this to us? That's what it means to innovate. Don't throw in a C++ programming block and call it throwing us a bone.

    I don't even own that game, btw, so it could be that none of it works and it crashes every time you push a button. But, at least they try and I have to admit that presentation really sold all their ideas and you can see the time they put into their work. It's dedication. I don't feel the same dedication coming from Marek when he constantly closes off whenever an important question is (or was) asked on stream (including about a female astronaut btw, he gave an absolute sounding "No"), looks at the ground and maintains the game is done.

    But don't worry guys, we have Good AI. I bet those French guys can't top that, ha! Take that, France! Keen's artificial AI can read and reproduce photographs (barely)! Your fancy and drool worthy logic blocks have nothing on Good AI. Soon it will change the world.

    :/


    Also, I'm all for not putting all your eggs in one basket, but in this case, Marek passed the next basket and threw the eggs at an Ice Cream truck and they cracked and sort of rolled off the side as it drove off playing that annoying Ice Cream tune. (Oh Good AI, how I am jealous of your blog posts.)

    Meanwhile, the eggs in the first basket are stale, the second basket has only half the eggs in the first basket but is looking to have the same fate, and Django is curdled up in the third basket.

    Good AI has become Marek's golden goose, the project he is putting his heart and soul into. And you can see it. All we get are broken lights. Literally.

    --

    Btw, the SE engineer's face is rigged to gravity? Does that mean when he takes off his helmet and the room suddenly depressurizes it will blow up and explode like in Total Recall? Cause I would totally like to see that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  30. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    @Tenzo GoodAI is irrelevant with regards to the game. Completely. Whether or not it is a good idea is also irrelevant to the games. What it boils down to is whether or not it affects the development of the games. Each of the games have their own leads. The money he uses for GoodAI is money he'd get either way, and the games manage themselves. GoodAI has no impact on the games what so ever so who cares what he does with it. If his interests have shifted from games to AI who are we to tell him otherwise? He's human. People change. He as a person doesn't owe us anything. Keen maybe, yes. Marek no. He's just a guy.

    Yes, it has become his golden goose. So what? He doesn't make the day-to-day decisions about the games' development anyway. He's just the CEO. He has opinions about the games, and he can make overriding decisions, but he doesn't have to. He's got people with the role of "Game Designer" or "Lead Producer" or whatever they're calling it, on their employee card. It's their job, not Marek's.

    Stop putting emphasis on a block that cost them practically nothing in time and money and has been the source of fun for thousands of us. That most definitely didn't affect the development of the game. (Also while irrelevant to the argument - that's C#, not C++. Yes, there's a relevant difference, the one is easier to learn than the other)

    Are Keen having problems with the game? Hell yes. But no, GoodAI is not the source of Keen's problems with the game. You were talking about a golden goose earlier. Well right here you're chasing a wild one. Or two, if you count the programmable block.


    Now, it's not my job to defend Keen and at this point I'm not entirely sure I'd want to. But unfairness irks me. But I will try to leave this argument alone from now on. It serves no purpose.
     
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