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Disagreements, Arguments and Civility

Discussion in 'General' started by RayvenQ, Sep 18, 2015.

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  1. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    And people think that making a rage-filled critique is the way to criticize. The "It's Alpha" statement is correct, over-used but correct also bear in mind that it is not Keen who answers these threads, normal people do. Keen is watching everything and the people who post here, that are not KeenSWH devs, cannot speak for them. Sometimes they grant the OPs critique a feature (like dev branches) and sometimes they do not. So, regardless of the people's response, the critique might get somewhere.

    And I'd like proof on that "support and cover" part.
     
  2. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    I can't provide more info, since I would be breaking a forum rule. Let's just say I'm very sure of that.
     
  3. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    Excuse me. I may have read it wrong but...
    Also note that not all critiques are correct, not all are true or even worth reading. That's why they get debunked (rather quickly and commonly), not to mention that there's a difference between a critique and a whine or rage thread.

    As for your "support and cover" part, sorry but I only take proof. If you want to leave it at that, that's fine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  4. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    Having the freedom of speech does not mean you are allowed to have your say but others can't because they disagree with your point of view.

    You're allowed to complain and others are allowed to comment on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  5. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    It is an acurate statement, yes we all know it's alpha.

    The problem is the degree this excuse is being used. It doesn't matter if you post a discussion about a bug, try to start a debate about some feature, someone will always drop a post saying "this is alpha".

    I created a thread this week talking about Survival mode, how it was broken, provided reasons for my statements, some bugs were tested and reproduced by others. There were Bug Reports filed already.

    Now tell me, what's the issue with a thread discussing those bugs? We even dig some information that might be of relevance for the Devs. But what happened? Two posts with "This is alpha" mentality. Posts like that should be taken as Flamming and/or Spam, they don't help the situation and create even more conflict.

    Also, if KSH is willing to accept cheap excuses made for their Fan Base to take away the responsibility to give feedback to us, that's a bad move.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  6. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    The problem is how that critique is viewed. Personal opinion is a cheap path to the Dark Side. That's why I fight Moderators that put their personal opinions on actions. If you let the train derail, any critique is going to be harassed, regardless of it's validity.
     
  7. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    @LFCavalcanti most of the time i agree with you and support your critiques but this type of "ALPHA" statement from other users is getting out of hand and now blessed by mods, i dont think they are going to change this "rule".
     
  8. Mix-martes86 Senior Engineer

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    It's definitely overused, but that answer is mostly what irrational ragers/haters get for totally (or partially) stupid/ignorant posts or claims. If decent or serious claims also get answered that way, I can't speak to that.

    Also, I find it particularly unwise to "fight" moderators. Right or not, they have the power and you don't. If private conversations don't work, then just drop it, it will just get you banned. It's absurd to get banned from a virtual place.
     
  9. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

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    There is a post in the bug forums called:
    [01.106.006] Things on the patch list that didn't actually get fixed / new bugs

    Its an actuall and valid bug report and consolidation over the bugs that migrated from one patch to another, and guess what the OP of that thread got? "its Alpha" statements saying he is ranting and all the hate a good player could wishtand, even tho @Phand herself acknologed those bugs.

    Its the support of this kind of actitude what harms the comunity.
     
  10. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    The problem is also how the critique is made....You cant compare a well-made, calm and solid critique to a rage or whine post.

    Yes, it is, I can see you following that path aswell along with everyone else, including me.
    Personally I tend to post in rage/whine/critique threads where I see some misconception, misinformation, ignorancy or just blind rage/whine. However, I can only speak for myself in this case.

    If your problems is with the moderators, that's something I cant do anything about.

    To be honest, that section of the forum doesnt seem moderated at all. I mean Phand takes the report, tests it and confirms it, then the thread just stands there, open to anything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  11. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    When I used the word "fight" means I'm standing my ground when I see this kind of attitude. If we always accept bad things from people with power, you can't deny this world would be a lot bad to live than it is.

    People often forget that company's forums like this are a representation of their relationship with their customers. If you have Moderators going around picking people that have legitimate critiques and silencing them, it will not solve the problem, the Internet is an environment that you can't control. You may silence critique now, but be sure, it will come back at you very soon.

    What we really need is a way to stop harassment from moderation. The suggestion I made some post ago in this thread is perfectly possible with the current Forum system. I don't think they will do that, but not only their job would be easier, we would see less personal opinion causing trouble. You know... "Moderator X doesn't like people Y, so every opportunity he/she has to harass that person will be taken with the most severe action possible".

    The problem is that those people that post "This is Alpha" ease the job of KSH actually taking their time to give feedback. I just hope that guy who streamed the 2 year anniversary event get more opportunities to give feedback to us, maybe more back stage action, direct talk about their decision making. Every time KSH states they can't to A because of B, people stop complaining.
     
  12. Tristavius Senior Engineer

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    You're all hanging out in the wrong forums :p

    I must admit I find general chat to be rather... confrontational when I bother to look in. In 18 months of posting regularly in Community Creations I can't really think of a fight. One or two people who asked for critique and received some extremely polite, constructive feedback and still didn't like it I guess (who were then more or less ignored) but otherwise, all friendly. Modding and the sub forums is just a helpful place, as is bug reports (the correct place to post when things aren't working right by the way folks). [EDIT] Admittedly bug reports can become snappy when they are multiple repeats or summaries of already know issues, or are phrased as complaints or do not provide enough information.

    Weirdly when this topic stated, I realized I couldn't name a single mod on this forum... at first I filed that under being a negative in my head, but on further thought, it shows that much of the community can be trusted to respect each other and/or there's a light and subtle hand on the reins.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    I believe the main problem is suggestions and to a lesser degree general because the discussions can become quite heated.
     
  14. Azzanine Apprentice Engineer

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    The alpha is alpha clause only applies to those who; A. Expect perfection and a fully finished game that's fully optimised. B. Those who urge Keen to stop implementing features because bugs unaware that feature implementation is what you do in alpha. Those two instancss are the only legit times Alpha is Alpha should be invoked. Also if the game is still alpha at the 4 year mark then even those two criterion won't apply.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. inventor200 Apprentice Engineer

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    446
    Especially after planets released; practically a civil war is breaking out between high-end DX11 users, and DX9/low-end-DX11 users.

    Seems a lot of people's inner asshole (pardon the expression) is starting to shine way more often than usual. I'm on the forums a lot (maybe 1-4 times every two hours), though I rarely post. I've never seen such a tightly-compacted stream of shade, insults, angst, and pompous ignorance/apathy. People who are normally very civil on these forums seem to just drop all their filters lately.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    It's official: Planets are just Keen's attempt to drown out their Anti-FemGineer-standpoint in DX11-Entitlement and DX9-Whining! It makes so much sense!

    (Seriously, though, i have only seen one DX9er going uncivilized, and another one approaching it, while there's a huge crowd of DX11-people who're basically foaming at the mouth when running into people who have the AUDACITY to want to play their game. Mods seem to be on the ball, though. At least they're present.)
     
  17. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Well,

    I know there's a rule against publicly discussing moderation rules, but since this thread wants to address argumentation and civility, it's worth mentioning a situation. I'll not quote the names here, neither the thread.

    Long story short, I went over an argument with another forum member. We were both out of line, but none of us broke any forum rule in my POV. My post was deleted, his remain untouched.

    Please moderators, if you're going to enforce civility and fairness, be fair yourselves. The weight of the hammer should be the same for both those providing critiques and those "defending".
     
  18. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    And if that post did not break the rules but yours did? What if your post was not civil and his was? should both be deleted?

    Keyword being your POV. It's always nice when rules/mods play your way and always bad when they dont.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. Phormio Trainee Engineer

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    this game used to be fun. now i have no idea what is happening

    I tried to load my saved game and it was not compatible with the newest patch. that sucks.

    I died 7 times trying to land on some planet. that sucks

    I can't use the jetpack because I need some new resource. that sucks

    I pushed a button and my dude takes off his helmet and dies, that;s stupid.

    there is no objective, which used to be ok but now it's just stupid due to continuous inexplicable death

    what ever the common retort is to this: no it's still stupid.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    Completely unrelated to the thread. I recommend you do the tutorials.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  21. Light_gemini Junior Engineer

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    This reading was actually funny
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
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