Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Drill Shake Poll

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by lostami, Jan 14, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    The shake on the ship drills is to much, it makes drilling with any control impossible, inside a tunnel you end up breaking the ship more often then not, and after an unspecified amount of game time it becomes so uncontrollable that I have seen it swing 15-20 meters left right up and down.
    Yes I tried emptying them or filling them, they seems to be no connection to that and the shake, nor does the number of engines.

    Question being do you think the ship drill is to difficult to control?
     
  2. Glargh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    54
    I'm less about control and more about realism. In space vibrations can be deadly, and you are not going to engineer a rotating part that is off balance if you can help it. The drills when merely turned on in empty space should not cause wild oscillations, merely when trying to dig through rock.
     
  3. Amancalledme Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    304
    Honestly, I don't get it, if you want to mine an asteroid, fill it with missiles, duh. :crazy:
     
  4. Azan Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    46
    I like it actually, it creates a challenge, you cant just stick a drill on the end of a set of engines and have a universal perfect mining vessel, instead you need to anchor yourself to the asteroids and build drilling rigs.
     
  5. wolfsgrim Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    I like that shaking :)

    you need to consider it in your construction!
     
  6. Grim Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    341
    HEY. I'm the only grim allowed around here.
     
  7. OracleTX Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    196
    I think just turning the shake down a bit would be best. When the drills were first enabled, I think they didn't shake as much as they do now. I agree that they should not shake at all until the bit hits rock. It is definitely too much if it shakes so hard the drill shatters against the rock.

    As for Azan's solution, I have built ships with ~16 small lateral thrusters in each direction to counteract the shake. It still crushes a drill fairly often.
     
  8. JNC Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    195
    I think the current vibration is appropriate for when the drill head is actually mining asteroid but not turning in free space... the drill appears to be of a balanced design so idk why it would move around like that.
    Before the latest update i made a ship with 1 drill and 280 thrusters to try and compensate for the crazy vibrations, it failed. Its much better now but I'm not sure it can be eliminated via thrusters... think it may just be a hardwired kinda thing? :confused: shouldnt be though
     
  9. Stonewolf Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    776
    Because its an engineering game I had no choice but to choose last option on the poll. I do understand why ppl don't like the shaking. For me I take it as a challenge. :cool: (I mine tunnels just fine btw ;))
     
  10. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    If they dont fix it i will creat base inside asteroid and place one box with drills on all 6 sides and send it fly like a mine x 1000 :rof: no one will get near me and i will kill all :rof: ( im using it like practic targets for me ship now, so it change directions every few meter ( true runing target ), just place minimal 4 drills and have fun )
     
  11. davesoft Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    168
    The shaking is fine for me. Yknow your mining ship and your fighter SHOULD NOT look similar, in both style and engine configuration.


    This retarded design uses no heavy engines, but 2 'don't move sideways' pods attached, out of balance, to a rotor on the back of the ship.
    The 'stability modules' helped remove ALL shaking at the cost of odd delays while intentionally strafing and not being able to tunnel too deep... but that was just the width of the odd machine.

    [​IMG]



    With enough engines you can keep the shaking down, it'll never be 0 though, so expect a little bumping.

    ..how weak are your ships to become damaged by a little bumping?
    The only things that slow me down are cockpit-clipping and side-bashing the drills, which are both temporary setbacks.

    tldr; think more, armour stuff
     
  12. faceit77 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    346
    The sound of the drills are not that great either
     
  13. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    Try move 4 drill close to each other as posible and in faster speed they will start hit each other and change direction all sides. ( i did creat it be mistake while mining :rof: ) yea it fly moust of time in one direction, but move side ways. target is 5x5 desk 1generator and drill ( orginaly there was landing gear ) :rof: + CTR+C few times and you have fun evade drills amd hit them :rof: or place them on platform, and remove paltform, they will start move from raming one drill from other ( ofc all drills are on )
     
  14. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    0_0 wow I go to sleep and wake up to an active topic.
    Still one of the major issues is the odd glitch that happens when it stops shaking and starts flying 20 meters left and right up and down after playing for awhile.
    I'll have to restart the game and reload the save and it will have the normal level of shake again.

    As for all your comments I really like the idea of it not shaking till it hits the rock, no one would make a space drill that shakes.
    I mean I'd like to make a drill rig but there are just not enough mechanical options in game to make an effective solution to countering the shake and still being able to move the drill that can outpace a hand drill.
     
  15. Korodon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    This was the first major engineering hurdle I tackled. I carefully studied the (somewhat fickle and prone to change with no external change in stimuli) interactions of drills to various craft with different masses, sizes, engine layouts, gyroscopes, and drill configurations. My research was perhaps a bit less than scientific, as the evasive solution was in fact driving me utterly insane. I tinkered for hours until I found something that seemed to work out. The product of my labors was the Tunnel Snake.

    • Class: Miner
    • Length: 11.0m
    • Width: 4.5m
    • Height: 4.5m
    • Mass: 80t
    • Power: 128GW
    • Drills: 4
    Unlike almost all of my other ships I never bothered to calculate her thrust and acceleration by vector. The thrusters are evenly arranged such that its potential lateral, dorsal, and ventral thrust are even.

    This shot was taken after digging a hole, so it's dinged up a bit and is therefore slightly off spec:
    [​IMG]

    This has been my best effort so far. Thrusters will only get you so far, as they're reactionary. If the drills throw you around like a rag doll, the thrusters may stop you, but they won't hold you perfectly still. I built something heavy enough to absorb some of the momentum from the drills. At the same time, I recognized that there is a noticeable pattern of circular force exerted by the drills. Trying to add more to stabilize only compounds the problem. I found that arranging them just right in a pattern around the ship would cancel out some of that force. For sure rotating the drills before placing them produces notably different rotations to the ship.

    Ultimately, I ended up with this less-than-lovely ship. It is capable of drilling straight into the surface of an asteroid. It's slow going. Go too fast and you're liable to shape an asteroid spear and drive it into your cockpit. However, it does work for the most part. Most importantly, it's stable. It can burrow into the side of an asteroid without dashing itself to bits against the rocks. Ultimately I think I'll need a larger ship design, but the tunnel snake has been an excellent proof of concept. It can be done.

    [​IMG]

    Tunnel Snakes Rule!
     
  16. davesoft Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    168
    Niiiiice! I didn't think having drills spaced out so much would work.
    Redesign time!
     
  17. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    You have to understand that when survival mode comes out we can't expend massive resources building something to keep the drills stable.
    Building that long thing would cost a lot of resources, to add wait and it's still shakes rather badly.
     
  18. verticalspeed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    171
    I meant to play around with moar gyros on my drilling rig...... It's a likely solution, no? That and thrusters? I had assumed so.
     
  19. Shiezo Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    6
    Being able to reverse the rotation of each drill independently would help to counter some of the jumpiness. A control panel option to select clockwise/counter-clockwise would allow for counter-rotating drills.
     
  20. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    I agree, I tried using other drills to counter the rotation with no effect as they still spun the same direction no matter how I rotated them.
     
  21. Korodon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    I think mass is a biggest part of the equation when trying to create a highly stable mining craft - it only took about 80 tons for me to build a ship so stable it can dig a straight tunnel into an asteroid. Some bulk goes a long way to making a counter-weight. Neither packing on thrusters nor gyros did much for me when I was experimenting, whereas drill spacing/alignment and ship mass seemed to have the most noticeable effect on stability. They had the most notable impact on wobble in my tests.

    Of course, I could just own an aberrant ship that can no longer be built in that way due to changes in code. Alpha magic. In between work on my latest ship I'll see whether I can build a similar stable mining craft from scratch. Ultimately it doesn't even need to be straight as an arrow as long as the ship can mostly hold its station without dashing itself against the rocks.
     
  22. radam Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,207
    is it just me or did the last patch reduce the shake even more?
     
  23. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    Nope, seems just as unstable.
    So it seems the poll was split down the middle with a single vote in favor for leaving drill shake as it is, however the numbers being so close it hardly means the majority has ruled in favor of shake. In all realistic polls this would be considered even.

    So that leaves us to discuss it in length and see what sort of in game solutions we can come up with, or debate the ramifications of changing the shake.

    BEGIN!
     
  24. greenguy71709 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    12
    Are you sure the last patch didn't INCREASE shake? I built a couple mining vessels before the patch in an effort to assemble a small collection of ships meant for reshaping asteroids. I was careful in their construction to consider the shake induced by each craft's single drill. One of the crafts was very stable with little to no shake and a drill in close to the body, and the other had one extended out in front for small precise adjustments in short bursts, but less stability at length. Now the stabler of the two crafts oscillates left to right dramatically while drilling, whereas it had not done so before. I'm wondering if they decreased the density of light armor blocks when they added heavy armor blocks.

    I'm pretty bummed because I was able to pull off some fairly precise shaping with them previously. I cut out this little section while I was testing them out. The left side was primarily done with the larger vessel, and the smaller somewhat curved section on the right was done with the smaller of the two.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In case you're curious here are the two mining vessels, as well as a couple of small form factor missile ships for tunneling and larger adjustments and a carrier for them to dock on. My ships aren't exactly gorgeous, but they get the job done.

    (The wobbly one)

    [​IMG]
    (Yes, believe it or not this ship was quite stable)

    [​IMG]

    (Larger Passage Missile Boat)

    [​IMG]
    (This one is for smaller adjustments and passages)

    [​IMG]
    (and then we have the carrier itself both loaded)

    [​IMG]
    (and empty) - OK, well mostly. There's still one ship parked down below.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. MotoRider42HC Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    278
    Why is the poll closed?

    The solution to the drills shaking is twofold:

    First; your ship must have a very large mass, a good amount of thrusters, power and gyros.

    Second; they need to patch the game to allow to reverse the direction of the drill, so we can have half our drills going CCW and half going CW.
     
  26. lostami Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    Because the poll was set on a timer.Also having a large mass means it would suck up a lot of resources to simply add bulk.
     
  27. tomxp411 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    239
    Okay, the design of the drill is completely wrong for space.


    In a microgravity environment, everything has to be designed to counter motion. So a proper drill design would have an even number of counter-rotating drill bits, and the shaft itself would not rotate at all.

    Also, I would expect that the drill's control mechanism would include a computer that controls the pressure and speed on each bit, specifically to prevent vibration from moving the ship too far away.

    So in all, I think the reasonable thing is to remove drill shake. Completely.
     
  28. ctiberious Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    196
    Drills in space/micro gravity definitely should not shake by default. Simply turning them on should cause more then the most minor of vibrations (if that) and you certainly shouldn't see your ship jerking in a circular pattern.

    I don't have an issue with some shaking/motion when you're actually mining, however. Your ship is interacting with an object in space, after all. Sure, as tomxp411 commented, the drill would probably have some kind of computer control to regulate pressure and speed to minimize shake, but I can't see all motionbeing negated. Mass should help counter vibration while actually mining, but having ample lateral and dorsal thrusters should be just as important.

    And as suggested in this thread, we should definitely be able to control the direction that the drill bits spin to further help help control shake caused during mining.
     
  29. Diewoe Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    174
    adding mass doesn't work i had a 89,000kg ship with 1 drill and it would slide side to side a good 10 to 15 meters. Adding 15 engines up/down/left/right did nothing. Thing is some times this ship is rock steady then a few minutes of game play it starts bouncing all over the place. Reloading the game cures this.

    I do not think the drill shake is meant to be like this, I feel it has to be a bug. When they first turned on ship drills they were perfect, Very small shake. after a few more updates things got WAY out of hand and now you will rip apart your ships just trying to drill things. The bad news i feel is that they know this and can not fix it.
     
  30. Cashean Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    25
    I like the shacking but I think it could be turned down some.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.