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Exchange Market System

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Frostik, Jan 16, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Frostik Apprentice Engineer

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    152
    If we get a market system it should be more complex than just getting/paying value X for timber. What I would like to see is a more dynamic trading system that works basically like a commodity exchange.

    Every material or item has a different basic value which is defined by the time you need to craft and gather the materials for it. (Average time in the early game!). For example: You need 15 minutes for gathering the resources and crafting a sword (time for research and game progress excluded), but only 30 seconds for getting 4 timber. So you will need the value (currency would be gold) of 120 timber get buy a sword.

    In the beginning the market would be empty, so everybody needs to sell their products to fill the market up. If an item is sold to the market, another player can buy this item. So every item on the market is actually crafted/gathered by a player.

    The important thing of this market system is the price change.
    On the exchange market the prices are dynamic, which are basically defined by the costs of production and supply and demand.
    For example:
    There is an amount of x=100 timber on the market. The higher x gets, the lower gets the buying price and the amount of money you get for selling timber.
    If x<100 the price of timber would increase and you would get more money for selling timber.

    To prevent players from just watching the market and buying/selling stuff to get easy money there will be a small transaction tax/VAT and you will only be able to sell like 20 items at once (or even a different value for each product).

    So 700 years ago it took a lot of time to move items between the cities. I suggest an invisible “main market region” in the center of every kingdom. (Building and digging would be disallowed). The trading time would be defined by how far you are away from the closest main market. (Maybe include the road feature).

    How to get access to the trading system?
    At first you need to research “trading”. I suggest a few different blocks of different sizes that look like market booths. Every block will grant access to different products sorted by farming, carpentry, forging, mining, and so on.

    In singleplayer we would need a bot that sells and buys stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
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  2. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,222
    [​IMG]

    "Imagines raiding a traders supply cart."
     
  3. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,410
    So my solution for this problem on a minecraft server was pretty simple:

    The values of items bought and sold from the server fluctuate based on the market. Say someone sells 1000 timber to the market. The market value for timber falls, but the vaule for all other items increase very slightly because they represent a slightly smaller percentage of items being sold now. So people keeps selling timber until its not really as profitable of a resource and something else outweighs it in value for its time-to-income ratio, then players begin switching to other resources and selling those. Eventually, the market balances itself based on how much players on that server value the item. And when a player buys an item, it has an inverse effect on the value and the server takes a 30% cut.

    Scenario 1:
    John planted a mega-forest near his base to chop down for income. He sells a ridiculous amount of wood and the value of timber tanks. John must now seek out other methods of income to make it worthwhile to continue. Luckily for John, Bill has noticed the extremely low prices on timber and buys a bunch of it from the server because its so affordable. John may now continue his dreams of clearcutting the world.

    Scenario 2:
    James has begun building reinforced blocks (not really a block in game) that use iron banding to better defend his castle. This endeavor takes a HUGE amount of iron, but James has deep pockets and buys much of it from the server, driving up the price of iron. Sam and Rick notice the fluctuating value of iron and capitalize on it by mining Iron and selling it en-masse to the server, which both makes them wealthier and reduces the cost for James.
     
  4. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    778
    Besides the math side of the whole thing, I still favor a more pittoresque treatment of the concept as we have dreamed about at some earlier point, providing a sort of market town where actual avatars of players meet at market booths for trading, while this market town really consists of ingame structures, a settlement and then hopefully also NPCs in the streets. You will just be forced to remain peaceful in this place and hostile actions are impossible while being there, the market town also is indestructible and cannot be besieged by players. Behind the curtain your math still has room to get implemented and work.
     
  5. Merandix Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    519
    I honestly would like it if no such thing was implemented at all.. I've stopped playing online trading games because of how easy it is to exploit a market system. Any truly free market always has people selling low and buying high. I have to admit I have been a very harsh teacher on market mechanics in some of those games. including me literally not having to play the actual game, but just trading to a profit. Then, once playerbase starts maturing, and market effects kick in, you get the low-ballers. This makes the price of any good super low. Because people feel they have to set the price low to sell -no matter what- you then end up with low prices AND market shortages... without a resultant rise in price, because some people inevitably stick to their original low-ball price.

    A market on a server? Yes, but let players build it. I used to trade all the time on my minecraft server... But that was just player-to-player trading.

    Then, if you let the game decide on the exchange prices, it basically becomes math again.

    No, not really in favour of a market system. On an individual server, yes... but it's still just player-to-player trading. And I like that sort of bartering a lot better than artificial systems on a scale way too large, and in a system way too modern for a medieval game. The Settlers online also had this problem. Here you play a medieval online trading game, that's more like a modern stock exchange where you compare numerical values... even worse, goods just get magically teleported to where they are needed.

    Player-to-player trading at least means you have to physically haul the goods from one place to another. You have to exchange goods. And you don't introduce 'off world goods' into your little Medieval Engineers world. So no, not really in favour of such an idea. I do like pittoresque market-stalls, but if someone wants to build that, they should, and if you want to trade at that place, players on a server should. I don't think you should involve goods from other single-player games and servers in it...
     
  6. Frostik Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    152
    Well I think that this system is player-to-player based. But without the need to "magically" fast travel to each other. And trading is not a modern invention. It always worked on the base of supply and demand. Do we live in a forest? Wood is cheap! Do we live in a desert? Wood is expensive. It´s easy as that. Btw. How do want to trade in a singleplayer game if there are no other players?
     
  7. Merandix Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    519
    With player-to-player, I just mean you run up to a person, ask them if they want to trade something, agree on a price. And then proceed with the trade and bring each other the promised goods. You don't really need a system for that. I also dislike fast-travel so I hadn't considered that yet, I always turn it off, and honestly believe it's not the most elegant solution to the mathematical scaling problem of planets. The problem with a 40 km planet is a 128 km circumference... And it's all land. So yeah, you need fast-travel to get the whole planet in range. I get that. But my disliking of planets* is beating a dead horse. So I'll stop about that.

    And I was under the impression the trading system you proposed was global. Sorry about that. As I said, I dislike magical fast-travel, and thus don't use it. So I hadn't considered that that is pretty magical as well :p

    An NPC-trading faction however... now that would be nice, as long as it is small scale.

    *) Don't get me wrong, they pulled it off great, I just don't agree with the concept, but again, hugely off-topic and all.
     
  8. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,410
    NPC trading system would likely remain small scale-ish as long as long as you do not provide players with magic mailboxes or massive inventories. When players build a cart to move goods to and from a trade post or if they had to wait for fast travel timers, it would limit the amount of action the market sees.
     
  9. waterlimon Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,499
    For trading to ever be a core feature, it cannot be player-to-player. It has to be reliable, easy to use, and developers must be able to control the experience of trading because it is critical for progression. If players are able to starve the market of resources, or spam it full of free stuff, or if players have to use 75% of their time transporting resources to/from markets, it will ruin the game.

    The only way I see trading working, is if an NPC trader comes to you, with resource availability and prices fully controlled by algorithms set by the developers, largely disconnected from actions of other players. Then you trade, and the NPC carries on and poof disappears in thin air when theyre far enough.

    (the dwarf fortress model, basically)

    Sure you could as an extra allow players to meaningfully influence other players trade prices in multiplayer servers, but I dont see the point. Theres many players, so you cant really see who has what effect on the market, and its not feasible for you to do anything about it either since theres no player-friendly PvP feature in ME for now. Maybe as a mod. For all I care, the prices could be totally unaffected by player trades (just have them fluctuate for 'external reasons', youre just a single person in the world after all)
     
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