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Feature Lock

Discussion in 'General' started by Bluedrake42, Oct 17, 2015.

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  1. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    I'm going to get a lot of hate on this thread but I don't really care. I'm coming here to voice my opinion that Keen needs to stop adding new features to the game and focus on polishing what they already have implemented.

    People are going to claim "its alpha" etc but the fact is this game doesn't appear to have any roadmap, or have any plan to leave their alpha state at any time. So that argument doesn't apply here. Each patch seems to break more things than it fixes, and new features seem to constantly interfere with polishing the existing state of the game. Also with no roadmap... and no end in sight for "new features" a lot of us see Space Engineers staying in an indefinitely broken state for the foreseeable future.

    Here's an example of a third episode my community attempted after the newest patch, previous episodes went relatively smoothly... and now there appears to be a new game breaking bug every 10 minutes or so.



    Additionally... the lack of any development branch on Steam means with each patch... all players are forced to update to the newest version. Even when it breaks their servers, ongoing series, or ships and stations. This simple thing has destroyed entire Space Engineers communities over and over again... (remember Emerald Immersion?) and is ravaging the Space Engineers community.

    So here I am. I only want two things, and you can either abide by them or not but I'm still going to ask for them.

    1. Stop adding in new features. Implement Planets if you like, and stop.
    2. Add optional development branches for patches. Do not force your players and communities to update with each iteration of the game.

    You can ultimately do whatever you want with your game. However, as a long time player... and as someone who has spent a long time working with the community... this is what is needed for the community to move forward.

    Edit:
    Like I said, I'm not expecting anything else other than people yelling at me on this forum. Anyone else who would actually agree with me has left this community long ago. Keen can do whatever they want. This is my feedback. If you can't handle that keep it to yourself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  2. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Call me psychologically unstable, but don't the last 9 updates all have bug fixing in the title?
     
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  3. Rantage Trainee Engineer

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    We've certainly been through a bug-fixing period, but I don't feel as if the game is any more stable for it.
     
  4. The Churrosaur Junior Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    Edit: Don't take it personally Bluedrake, my man. Love your vids.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  5. The Q Apprentice Engineer

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    Does anyone (expect for the 15 people or so) ubderstand anything from game programming?

    Look every bug will break something because their is this one pice of code that depended on the now fixed code and when you fix (change) that osrt the other part will break. And games work like that, an action activating an chain of actions taht depend on each other
     
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  6. Lrj52 Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    I don't know if I am just getting lucky, but personally I haven't experience any game-breaking bugs in the last few 8 patches, and the games performance has increased for me. I'm not saying that the game-breaking bugs don't exist, but still. If most of them are happening in multiplayer, they are technically already working on it thanks to the upcoming new netcode.
     
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  7. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    Development cycles work like this:

    Planning and initial development - You get a working game together. Then proceed to Alpha
    Alpha - Get all the features in you want in your game. Proceed to Beta.
    Beta - Polish the game and add content.
    Release - happens when the game is polished and has content.

    Early Access games have to blur the lines a bit. Well all games do. Especially content and Alpha stage. Sometimes you need content to see how it interacts with the features. And for early access you need content and music and textures as early as alpha for people to play.

    With that said.. if I released the game that I'm currently working on as Early Access and while still in alpha, and had someone tell me to stop working on features...

    I'd refund their money, cut their access to the game and tell them, "See you on release day, rebuy the game if you wish then. Thank you for your support"

    And not shed a tear if they decided not to come back. Its one thing to provide feedback on features, suggestions on new features. But to tell a developer and producer how to do their job? That's something else entirely. Borderline insulting. When you're at a fast food place and your fries come out cold, you tell them the fries are cold. Not how to cook them.
     
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  8. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    1,942
    I think I'll be the helpful one considering I've watched that stream and those aren't ordinary bugs. The problem is though that these bugs are actually coming from keen secretly sneaking in planet/netcode changes. That means no matter what you do it can't be stopped. I'd suggest turning off auto updates once another stable version comes around and maybe making a backup copy of the previous version.
     
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  9. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    50
    Actually the last time I checked the law books I can tell them whatever I want.

    I don't expect anyone on this forum to be accommodating. However... This game has a bad case of feature creep, and I feel obligated to saying that. I've made it abundantly clear that I recognize their right to do whatever they want, but don't think you can guilt me into not saying my piece.
     
  10. Demo Apprentice Engineer

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    What was it 2 whole days or so since the last-
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    No one said anything about law. But I will say this. You don't understand how a development cycle works. You can complain all you want. Do it till you're blue in the face and your fingers fall off. All it does is show that one fact. Not only to the community, but to the dev team themselves.
     
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  12. BardTale Apprentice Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

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    Look another person who left a woe is me pity thread.

    [​IMG]

    You have the right to say anything you want, but no one is obligated to audience your words nor eschew you from any criticism/repercussions of what you say.

    No. This is not feedback. This is thinly veiled complaining/demanding an ultimatum for the game to be changed in your vision instead of "feedback". And you want us to keep it to ourselves because you know you are posting an unreasonable stance and don't want to take the responsibility of your complaining.
     
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  14. noxLP Junior Engineer

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    729
    * Yawn *
    [​IMG]

    PS: Yeah, i agree, this forum needs more emotes.
     
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  15. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Can you tell them that you are going to murder their family?
     
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  16. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    Idgaf what you think it is, and I don't have to do anything.

    I want development branches, and I'd prefer the features to be locked down after planets. Sue me.

    I don't think you want to take responsibility for the fact that some people have legitimate concerns. That this has nothing to do with an understanding of the development process. This is me being concerned that the development process has become aimless, and that there is no real end design goal for the game. If that is the case, then I feel pretty reasonable in explaining what I'm frustrated with and what I'd like to see changed.

    Your toxic attitude isn't going to do anything but turn more people away from the community.

    Development branches are probably one of the most reasonable things to ask for. If development branches were in place, perhaps the feature creep problem wouldn't be nearly as harmful to the community as it is now.
     
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  17. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Entitled person who doesn't understand the purpose of early access or the meaning of "alpha" complains and demands Keen cater to them, news at 11.
     
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  18. Castle Builder Trainee Engineer

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    40
    I definitely agree with blue on this one, though they've been in a bug fixing stage for the last few months they've also been working on planets so they haven't had all there resources devoted to bugfixing and also because they release the updates weekly they don't have enough QA testing time to find all the bugs in that update.

    My two cents would be that once planets are out go into a three month bugfixing stage and try not to get distracted by new features.

    PS: Here's proof that we need another bugfixing cycle http://forums.keenswh.com/threads/1-104-dx11-video-why-can-i-see-the-polygon-edges.7366477/ this bug has been in the game for two months now, although its not huge it still shows there stretched a bit thin in the buxfixing side.
     
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  19. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    You're assuming that the weekly updates are made in, well, a week. And forgetting what the point of signing up for "early access" is.
     
  20. Castle Builder Trainee Engineer

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    True not all of them would be made in a single week but judging by the amount of bugs in each update they don't have enough time for testing.
    I'm not saying I want everything the developers to release to be perfect I'm just saying I think they're overworking themselves a bit.
     
  21. entspeak Senior Engineer

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    1,744
    As I understand it, we've got planets, then netcode with some AI features and more survival elements likely sprinkled in there.

    They haven't finished the feature set - and, yes, that feature set has grown based on what the community has expressed, but that's the nature of the early access beast for many games where the devs pay attention to the community (sometimes to the detriment of the game for a time - *cough*multiplayer too soon*cough*.)

    So, I think it's okay to vent, but the game isn't done feature-wise and won't be for a while. "Deal widit!" ;)

    When this feeling comes over me, I usually take a break from a game... alpha fatigue. It happens.

    Sometimes, these graphical issues don't get fixed until beta - where they optimize such things. It may get fixed in alpha, it may not... because bug fixes aren't a priority unless they are game-breaking (which, I suppose is subjective). There are lots of graphic issues I'd love to see fixed (lighting in DX11!), but it may not happen quickly.
     
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  22. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    You are the reason people are leaving this game and not coming back. Having issues with bugs is one thing, viciously attacking and insulting anyone with a complaint is another. I've already stated that I accept Keen's control of their game, however that doesn't mean I don't feel obligated to voice my concerns. If you feel they're illegitimate concerns, then tell me without the insults and bickering.
     
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  23. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    50
    I for one would agree and say that the weekly updates deadline is likely not helping with the feature creep or game testing aspects of development. However maybe they think its motivating... I don't know.
     
  24. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    IIRC, none of the weekly updates were "done in a week". They're started weeks before they're released.
     
  25. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    No, I'm not. People who buy a game that's not finished without understanding what that entails are.
     
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  26. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    Too bad you dont get the stuff you want by whinning....

    Alright, Let's start.

    Development branches: no, you want a feature creep and development branches for what? This is only makes bug-hunting & fixing more tedious.
    Let me assure you that your concerns are based of a lack of knownledge on the situation and coding, development has not become aimless, in fact there's atleast 2 clears goals here: Planets and Netcode. If anything, planets can become the progression system some people seem to think the game needs.
    Actually, development branches would not make any difference to the "feature creep problem", It's just more work, for less testing and fixing.
     
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  27. Bluedrake42 Trainee Engineer

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    I want development branches so content creators can stay on more stable builds in order to develop content more reliably. Maybe you don't understand what I'm asking for? I'm asking for the ability to switch to a previous build on demand if you need to. Steam has support for this, its something that could be set up with relative ease.
     
  28. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    People shouldn't be staking content creation on the game at this stage, because it's in alpha, new things will be added all the time, stuff will break constantly, and it's not Keen's problem if you don't like that because they clearly advertised such.

    If people want to make content, they can. They'll just need to have the dedication to power through the bugs or wait them out.
     
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  29. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    Content creators? As In modders? They are well aware that their mods may become incompatible with each update, this happens in every game and not only that but this would probably force them to have an additional version for each branch, so instead of updating 1 time, they have to update once for every branch. So you want branches to make modders work more for the same results?

    And no, It's not setup with relative ease, you dont even know what's the process behind it so how can you tell? You think they just put up a download link with an outdated client and they're done?
    For all I know with branches you create an useless-to-development version of the game that is just useless for bug-hunting and bug-fixing, not only minimizing the ammount of testing a version gets, but also the possibility to catch bugs.
     
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  30. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    I think he's talking about youtubers, actually, and maybe people running servers.

    Which still doesn't matter, because they know what they got into. Plus, there'd be no way to restrict the "stable builds" branch to content creators, which means Keen loses out on swaths of players who would otherwise be testing and providing feedback on their latest content.
     
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