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Fix the shovel!

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by jozsefsz, Jun 8, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. jozsefsz Apprentice Engineer

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    251
    Currently, in survival, shovel is only good to mess up your environment. I can't even fill a 3 meters deep and 6 meters wide marked area because of a number of things:

    1. (The ugly) : You will never be able to make it flat, because when you filled it up, there were holes, that couldn't get stuffed, so you just moved on, hoping it won't affect the surface... IT DOES AFFECT IT, because damn logics...

    2. (The annoying) : Seriously, I can't see sh*t because of the ugly, annoying and headache causer god damn yellow layer, when I'm trying to fill up a hole with those aligner pickets. Thanks to the feature-deficient, glitchy Sun angle settings, I'm living in a zone with almost 80% of time of darkness, where it gets even worse. It just hurts my eyes sooo badly, I have to quit the game and get in a pill, praying it won't be worse on the remaining part of the day. At least add an option to disable it, because when you can't fill the hole, and fall into it because of that almost-solid yellow layer prevents you from seeing what is below you, it can get REALLY irritating, especially, when you can't get out without digging away a bit of dirt, you were trying to place there for 2 god damn hours. And with that let's get to the third problem...

    3. (The useless) : Shovels are useless against dirt, you placed. Literally useless. I have to carry a pickaxe just in case I fell into the hole because of that solid yellow layer.

    4. (The glitchy) : Voxel placing with shovels is pure torture. Sometimes it places nothing, or barely 1-2 mms of dirt, sometimes is places ONE METER of dirt. That one meter thing is the main problem here, because that is the causer of "The ugly". And if you leave it there at the very bottom of your hole, it WILL affect the surface, which means, you will never be able to flatten it.

    I'm sorry, if it sounded a bit angry, but that's the case, really. I spent 5 hours just trying to get that hill-side filled up, to build my very own flax farm, and after it was hopeless to fill up for the third try, I just used ALT-F4 and went out for a few pills and a glass of water. This sort of headache caused by eye-irritating and annoyance is the WORST.
    I will just ignore comments like "you can't use it", "it's your fault", "calm down and get lost" and the other very friendly ones, because I can send you a world file if you really want to suffer, and you can try it yourselves.
     
  2. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207
    wonder if its possible to precisely place voxel?

    might be a bit immersion breaking but what if you could place voxel like while in creative mode?
    only you hold the tool out and select the shape and size and it costs such and such an amount?

    edit: like i've never really tried placing voxel much but i can imagine at times it can be difficult...suppose they could make like a high tier shovel or something that would let you extremely accurately place voxel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. jozsefsz Apprentice Engineer

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    251
    Immersion killer? No. That should be the right one! While they wanted to avoid floating voxels on purpuse, they just made it to happen randomly, so you won't be able to fill the holes caused by them. 25 cm diameter voxel hands should be given to us with the name "shovel" instead of this glitchy, useless thing. I loved the idea of shovels, but it is completely against every physical and logical aspects as it is now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207
    it would be fun if they just said screw it and .....for a short while anyway...allow players to shovel place floating voxel.

    imagine the floating castles players would make. :p
    imagine...taking out that one piece of voxel holding the whole damned thing up!
    i just imagine players making a parkour challenge across a sky highway or something.

    it would be fun but unlikely.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. jozsefsz Apprentice Engineer

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    251
    Well, I didn't think about that. That would be immersion killer in some cases, but at least it would work. You can achieve the same level of "unrealistic" placing with the current shovel as well, so your idea wouldn't make the game loose too much of realism.
     
  6. Köbi 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    147
    Yeah. Shoveling is a huge pain in the butt. And a black hole for time. To not create cavitys you need to be extremely carefull... But that is impossible because you cannot see trough that yellow layer. At least shift helps a little.
    I would like to have a shovel that has different sensitivities on scroll down and up.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    192
    Shoveling is pretty cool at it's current implementation. It needs more work but it's better than the jerky voxel hands with the big globe. Even the stakes are cool with the intention of being able to flatten a plot of land.

    Yes, the yellow layer is really annoying but they need only set the transparency on it to like 20% opaque.

    With the stakes you can't actually get it super flat, which I thought that's what they were for. You hand me a shovel and I'll make any bare land flat with the stakes; no problem. It plays like a work in progress. I had bumps sticking through the yellow layer after an hour of working on a 3mx3m plot. Seemed odd.

    The frustrating shovel that shovels a little dirt or empties the bag out into the same place depending on what my character is thinking about at that moment seems like it's suffering from the same problem the stake leveling is. When shoveling we're actually modifying a lattice of triangles and depending on whether you clicked on a vertex of several triangles or a single triangle you get either a spilled bag of dirt or a few hand fulls. So yeah, that's not immersive.

    At least in the DS, I find the topography a little different after leaving and logging back in, but only in terms of how the shovel responds to filling in a spot.

    Oddly, and I think I like it this way, I can make a dirt ledge at the top of a hole as long as that's below me. I like pointing to where I want to add or remove dirt even if it's on the side of the hole. That's good control. The quantity of fill or removal needs some refinement. While it would be nice to dump dirt away from me but above my head level, I agree it doesn't make sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  8. Köbi 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    147
    I agree that the stakes are brilliant. You can not only do flat land, but flat land in every angle and variation. And after training shoveling some hours, you get better. It still is very time consuming, but if the layer gets very, very transparent... I will be totally happy with the shovel. (The first 3-4 hours were very frustrating though.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Concomitant Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    Shoveling is easy, I don't know what you all are having so much trouble with. When you get a cavity, that is FINE, just keep voxeling around it (or try to fill it in if it's small) to make it expand properly. Occasionally you will have some that you just can't fix, and I agree with you that those times are annoying. It works 90-95% of the time for me just fine.

    I recommend building a mound of dirt in the shape of a cone. That'll make for a good challenge.

    Don't stake your ground until you're ready to remove dirt. If you have a huge area to fill in, don't rope the stakes until you've filled in above where you want to flatten. This way, you'll minimize the amount of time you're in "precision fill" mode, which is what the stakes allow you to do.

    *Edit* Quick note on the yellow plane: If you light the ground well, you can see just fine. Put up torches on the areas you're teraforming, preferably on top of tall timber posts that are easily moved around.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. NacoChata ME Tester Staff

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    188
    Hello guys,

    thanks for your reports/feedback. I put all of your requests on designer and he has to decide what we will do with them. This was just first iteration with shoveling we want to improve shoveling in the future.

    Also, I want to give you one advice for now before we will fix this issue if you are shoveling in the plane are (area with the stakes) you can hold SHIFT to ignore this plane so this can solve some of your issues.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  11. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    192
    Before the shovel came along, as was other people prolly, I was doing terrain reshaping with the pickaxe. The shovel is definitely an improvement.
     
  12. Concomitant Trainee Engineer

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    45
    whistles

    Wow. That is stupendously helpful. Thank you so much!
     
  13. Köbi 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    147
    I can give you more feedback. I shoveled way to much for way to little result. I estimate only every 10th click actually does anything. (I often have to re-do parts because it does not what I want.)

    -The yellow layer is not neccessary for me at all, because the human eye can see imperfections very good, if it is not blocked by the layer. So 10% intensity would do for me.

    - When I have a "stuborn" voxel, I chop them out (with shift) and that takes a huge chunck. It would be very nice to have a second shovel (on scrolldown). So I can decide when it should take (or deposite) a huge load, or only a small load.

    -I estimate half of the "you cannot deposite over yourselfe" disappointments could be avoided, if you could give the tool maybe half a meter more reach, so I can stand further away.

    -To make more clicks deliver results you maybe could make a bigger area affected by the shovel. If it would try to affect maybe 1m square instead of only 1/2m square, I would expect efficiency to double also.

    -Similar earth-piles should "hill-out" more. If I try to make the ground fit to a block, I most likely need to remove that block first and build up the ground there, so it can get to the level needed for the staked plane.

    -If you could prevent the shovel to create "cancer voxels" (those that are unnatural and have sharp edges, etc...) it would be perfect!

    Hope that helps. :)

    To elaborate a little:
    -Dumping earth on a pile most likely makes its base wider, and not its peak higher. The shovel should do that too somehow.

    -To stop "cancer voxels" I suggest making the tip of the tool smother. Like having a brush, instead of a pencil in a graphic programm.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  14. mathias casaer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    75
    i totally agree with the colouring issues of the guiding plane: it creates migraines and should be lower contrast or toned down, there is no single good reason to make it so bright since the game already has a tendency to get dark and is usually very subtle in handling guiding graphics. the one who decided on this colour must really fester some hate :D
    Besides the colouring of the plane i really love the stakes , they are perfect for creating large base surfaces for rolling machinery. The fact you cant flatten perfectly or that you get odd shapes and bumps seems semething related to voxel functioning, and i can accept that.
     
  15. TheBoot Apprentice Engineer

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    168
    There's one thing that connects all these posts... the highlighting system is too much! It should be a lot more subtle than it is so you can actually see through it when you're doing stuff like shoveling or placing blocks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Kiin Kendov Trainee Engineer

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    23
  17. jozsefsz Apprentice Engineer

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    251
    You have the exact same problem as I did. The problem here is that you wanted to fill and flatten a way too deep hole with stakes. Stakes are good for corrigating small height differences, not filling up holes. I still think that it is a glitch, which is very annoying, but the right workaround is to approxametly fill up the hole upto 90-95% then do the final touches with the stakes to make it pretty and flat.
    One more advice: Never carry on filling a hole when there are strange voxels which look like cube shaped holes in the ground. Those chube shaped holes must be dug out and filled up again properly otherwise whatever you do, you won't be able to flatten it.
     
  18. Kiin Kendov Trainee Engineer

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    23
    Thank you jozsefsz, I'll try your workaround.
    Am I right in thinking that the shovel doesn't "fill" the hole with new voxels, but only replaces the old voxels as they were before?
     
  19. jozsefsz Apprentice Engineer

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    251
    For the very first layers only. After a few fillings, it will lay basic dirt.
    One more tip: Try and place voxels on the side of the hole, but as low as possible. Never fill the very bottom itself.
     
  20. Kiin Kendov Trainee Engineer

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    23
  21. NacoChata ME Tester Staff

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    188
    Hello guys,

    I'm glad to hear that we sorted this out and I wish you lots of pleasant moments with the shovel.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  22. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    Shovel go slow. Please fix.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.