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Frigate-size anti-capital ship weapons.

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Ryuujin, Sep 19, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

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    41
    For a couple patches now ore cannons haven't been working reliably/at all and it looks like they won't be coming back any time soon. So what alternative designs people do people have for anti-capital ship weaponry that can be mounted on a frigate size vessel in the space of a regular spinal weapon (ie. a 5x5x8 large ship space; with space around the device so it doesn't get jammed, if it's a detachable like a heavy torpedo)

    I've been wracking my brains on this for a few days trying all kinds of different designs, and been given a couple suggestions but none of them quite fit the bill.
    • Nukes got nerfed long ago. Their successor, the variable yield explosive warhead is great for disabling lots of turrets. But I want something that can shatter a ship's spine reliably (Is there a version that can shatter spines?)
    • Kinetic impactors seem to be affected by the same physics change as ore cannons, can they be made effective?
    • "Boxes full of rocks" missiles like Reapers/GETRECKD arn't nearly as effective in x1 storage space survival servers as they are in creative/high storage space servers.
    • Box-breaker ore cannons seem to be suffering from rocks clipping through the target
    • Projector fabricated dumb-fire warheads are too easily shot down unless up-armoured. But armoured torpedoes are too complex for rapid fabrication in the limited space allotted.
    • Single-shot cruise missiles with standard warheads have decent results, but not enough of a result to justify the fact you only get 1 shot before having to fabricate and load another (I'd want an old-school nuke for that amount of investment)
    • Complex, small torpedoes can be rapidly fabricated in that space but their yield doesn't seem much different to a regular dumb-fire turret/rack missile.
    So, at this point I'm officially miffed at my own skills, and wonder if anyone else has any designs they want to share that can be fitted into that space that either yields a similar effectiveness to an ore cannon/dumbfire torpedo launcher (Automatic reloading, good damage), or a single-shot "ship killer" weapon (Only get one shot but that's all you need to break a ship's back).
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
  2. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Spines are pretty hard to shatter ATM, but -- and I'm totally blowing my own horn here -- I suggest you take a look at the Gladius's main gun. One welding cradle from that should fit into the space you describe, weld rate is fast (eight seconds in x1 last I checked), they're durable enough to punch through point defense, and the damage is good even after attrition from point defense. It's more suited for high penetration than wide-scale damage, though, so it may not be what you're looking for.
     
  3. iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

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    1,132
    Hey @Ryuujin, I think I may have just the thing for you. Check out ship No.4 in this picture:

    It has a torpedo launcher similar to DLP's, but mounted on a minimalist frame for reasonably cheap construction in survival. Torp reaches max speed within 70m. 1 button to load, one button to shoot. Also, it's about 600t and accelerates at around 25m/s, so can effectively chase any capital ship in vanilla. Will be on the workshop in the next fortnight.
     
  4. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

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    41
    In the end I settled for a mod. I was poking around and found this obscure Japanese modular railgun mod:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=470059559

    And it actually does a really good job of replicating the kind've damage and physical profile of an ore-based mass driver prior to keen breaking them, but feels more controlled and balanced since it has a refire rate of 60 seconds instead of being spammable, and the bigger you make the gun the greater the penetration.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Ooh, that looks nice.
     
  6. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,964
    Create a launcher that outputs heavily armored decoys to attract turrets. Launch those a split second before spamming any other type of warhead. This will reduce the need to up-armor projectiles and reduce the numbers being shot down.

    You have to take an orchestrated view on how best to defeat enemy turrets. No one weapon will work successfully... but a strategy will.
     
  7. Samsonguy920 Apprentice Engineer

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    245
    The problem is you want something that can be fired from a small ship that does the job in one go, like finding the thermal exhaust port of a space station the size of Ceres. That screams OP in any multiplayer scenario, and would be wasteful in a single-player survival game, since a lot of good resources would be destroyed.

    A good frigate-based weapon for going against large capital ships with would having a large missile that could track the capital ship, tipped with a warhead or two. Ideally you would want to use that against the main engines so you can reload and come back to do more damage at your leisure. If the other player hasn't stocked enough spare parts to replace those engines in that time. Could also use that opportunity to just fly your ship inside and wreak havoc in there if you strapped a gun or two on. But you gotta watch out for booby-traps laid inside there, other than interior guns. I wouldn't put it past anybody to place a missile launcher inside at the most vulnerable locations and keep themselves holed up inside a shell of heavy armor for when things got tight. Or just pop out in an escape vessel and self-destruct the ship if you got too near, just to take you out.

    Ronin's suggestion is very sound. Even the navies today have been using counter-measure drones more extensively. Nixies that make themselves appear as a ship to incoming torpedoes and missiles.
     
  8. Mike55520 Apprentice Engineer

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    438
    you can get pretty creative with printed torpedos to help them avoid getting shot down, for a while ihad one that launched with a few unattached decoys that sort of followed. i abandoned it because frankly the control system was horrid without a decently made script to help with it.
     
  9. Lieu Trainee Engineer

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    15
    You have some options. Here are my findings.

    - Ore cannons / kinetic penetrators, back when I tested this, were by far and away the best at punching through heavy armor. 20 layers, easy. Of course things have changed so I can't specifically comment atm, but ore cannons were insane.
    - Missiles(turrets). Don't count on them. They seemed to need at least 40 or so hits to the same spot to make a hole through 1 heavy armor layer.
    - Warheads. They do work. I think I needed 4 warheads of either size to get through heavy armor. They are the most efficient use of magnesium for raw damage by far. Obviously the difficulty is getting them to where you want. Compared to missiles, they take, I think, around 3-6 times less magnesium to get through 1 layer of heavy armor when the missiles are concentrated at one spot, which they won't be. The missiles are probably hitting all over the place and using some ridiculously higher factor of magnesium. Additionally, large warheads scale much better in terms of hole depth and hole width than missiles due to their great damage radius.
    - Missiles(rocket launchers). If you are prepared to spend a shedload of magnesium then there is a way here. Rocket launchers have about 4x the dps of a missile turret and are much more compact. You can create a modest array of them and the missile spam all in one direction can feasibly cut through armor. It's more of a manual aim type thing but with coordination comes reward. They are also much easier to protect with some kind of shrouding.
    - Gatling gun turrets. Haha. Heavy armor? Nope. The dps just isn't there (about 8x lower than a missile turret for a single target. They use about 10x less magnesium/resources though, so comparable efficiency). You might be able to do something with small ship gatling guns though. Same dps and efficiency as a large ship gatling turret but they are pretty small. You might be able to pack them in tight and make a hole? Note: I don't mean the small turret. They are 1/2 the dps and bulky.
    - Ship grinders. They are beasts in terms of resource efficiency. Quite an endeavour to weaponise them though. Guided missile tech + landing & locking tech. Or worthy of remote control instead? You pretty much have to shoot them off because it's easy to put a self-destruct warhead in it.

    Of note, light armor blocks are like paper vs warheads. Where you need (I think) 4 warheads to defeat 1 heavy armor layer (and possibly 6-8 warheads to defeat 2-3 unspaced layers), a single large warhead will rip though about 5 layers of light armor.

    Conclusion: It's far, far more expensive to destroy the hull of a heavy armor ship than it is to destroy component blocks. Missile turrets, etc, do a good job of the latter but for heavy armor penetration you are looking at either some kind of kinetic launcher or some kind of torpedo or guided missile packed with an "ideal" number of warheads for the job. The benefit of warheads being, besides being innately more resource efficient, if you can get 1 warhead to a single spot you can get 4 warheads to that spot at the same time, gauranteeing you actually take out some blocks completely. Missiles and bullets just ruin the paint job ;)

    Your personal attention should be on the most influential thing at the time, so maybe that means you want your ship to have "the big one" to control, whether it's a kinetic cannon or a remote-controlled death missile, then load the ship up with as many automated systems/turrets as you can. I like the idea of automatic fabrication tubes for guided missiles. Hint: the dps+efficiency numbers are very high. The sticking point seems to be long range targetting. There aren't really any options besides the script abusing certain weird block functions in the API. Eh, my prototypes basically worked :p Basically...

    *resumes work on guidance computer*
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  10. Infekted Apprentice Engineer

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    359
    Gravity propelled steel plates still do absurd damage. Easily countered by gravity ofc, but you can easily shred a ship before they have a chance to turn it on.
     
  11. Ryuujin Trainee Engineer

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    41
    This is a pretty old thread now. Pre-planets and back when ore cannons didn't work. Given that gravity nullifies the effects of gravity weapons it seems like guided missiles/torpedoes are logical flavour of the season, that way you have a weapon that can bombard ground targets/in atmosphere as well as space.
     
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