Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Game Needs A Long Range Radar System

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Jul 26, 2018.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    Ever since a few whiners and complainers killed off the handy GFD system, the game has been left with no viable way to detect enemy ships at long range. They gave us the Raycast system instead of GFD but it is entirely unusable and unsuitable for long range scanning without making a giant wall of thousands of cameras.

    As a result it is very hard to find other players on PVP servers to engage in combat. What was once a vibrant PVP community has been effectively reduced to a dull PVE environment. Now I know there are mods but it is ridiculous that for basic PVP functionality players and servers should have to be forced into using mods to overcome very obvious deficiencies in the core game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    I would love a radar system, with a contact list as well.

    "Whiners" had nothing to do with it. It was a bad performance problem, an incomplete and abandoned function that was a precursor to and completely replaced by the collision avoidance of the remote control autopilot, and was only exposed by accident. It was a liability for Keen. People were using it to kill off servers. Of course it got removed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    75
    it could be very easy performance wise to implement this (in theory). Simply put the radar "pings" out a set distance IE 10km and instead of scanning the area, the server consults where everyone is at and if anyone is within that radius it sends back a yes.
    IE Player 1 is 15km away from Player 2.
    Player 2 uses a radar that scans out 10km.
    the radar consults the servers information on player locations and if anyone is in the range X-Y it reports back positive and a position (depending on radar settings, etc)
     
  4. thefinn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    Yes I've been playing with the 2d/3d Lidar script this week, it leaves a lot to be desired however.

    It would be nice if something similar worked out to 25-50km...

    LIDAR is far from 100%... which would make getting a radar hit a cool thing to happen.

    Right now the range is only 9km and takes a good 60 seconds or more with a lot (hundreds) of cameras to find big ships in 3km range.

    3km isn't much use tbh.
     
  5. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    473
    I still think the active sensor system is the way to go. Allowing a user to ping the world at large, locating powered and broadcasting grids at an extreme distance and unpowered/non-broadcasting grids at a much smaller distance... the trade-off being that every ping shows your exact location to anyone within a certain radius. Each ping requiring a sudden massive draw of energy and lingering for a few moments before fading off. But if you do something like this it only makes sense to add a countermeasure... be it ECM or something similar, since forcing people to PvP is never a good idea, and if someone wants to invest the time and effort to hunt people down, someone can also invest the time and effort in to ensure they can NOT be hunted down.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    From the testing I have done the only real use for Lidar is to get the range of grids you can already see. Scanning with them is hopeless, I tried with hundreds of cameras and it still wasn't finding anything even at relatively short ranges. The problem is down to the beam width, its not even the width of the camera block its thinner then a piece of spaghetti.
    --- Automerge ---
    I agree a good radar system should have counters like it does in real life. For instance in real life if you switch your radar on and leave it on its possible for enemy planes to use anti radiation missiles to home in on the signal and ride it back to its destination to destroy it. Something like that in SE would be very nice and a good counter. I don't agree though that PVE players should be able to completely hide if they don't want to fight. In that case they should be on a different PVE only server.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  7. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    473
    @Bullet_Force We can agree to disagree there. PvP doesn't have to be a battle royale. I would posit that having active non-combatants actually makes things more interesting. Smuggling products through enemy PvP territory to a another faction to supply them, having no intention of actively combating anyone... just feeding the flames of war, due to his ECM or similar system can only be spotted by a keen eyed observer (which in itself would be super cool... realizing that cruiser has stopped and turned to intercept you). I don't think PvP means all people must fight at any time anyone else deems a fight fun. If someone wants to turtle in obscurity on a server that poses the risk of PvP action without actively seeking it.. I say more power to them.

    Regardless of our individual ideologies on the matter, I am a firm believer that if you have a thing that can be used against other players, that thing should always have a countermeasure.

    Hell now that I brought it up, I kinda want to be a non-combat smuggler supplying warring factions with stuff they need to kill each other while I sit idly by sipping space champagne and watching the fireworks from an stealth craft parked nearby.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,945
    I think a radar system would be moot if servers could be set up in a way that resources could be strategically positioned and distributed. The current procedural asteroid system is basically ALL or NOTHING for example. There's no reason to compete for resources or even encounter other players. For the sake of brevity and not derailing, I won't go into how I'd like to see it work. But a radar wouldn't be a necessity if we could set up servers in a way that made encountering other players a much higher probability.
     
  9. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    75
    Yeah, or perhaps if servers set up a sort of economy system, and had some important items be purchase only that could work. Though don't underestimate peoples desire to hunt down others just to troll them.
     
  10. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,746
    What is GDF?
     
  11. thefinn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    I completely agree with this. And yes the pencil thin line you can see in developer mode kind of tells the tale. However given the time it takes to draw that pencil thin line - I can only surmise that making it thicker would take even more computer grunt. That's why I think it's kinda useless as a way to do this - unless I am mistaken about the computer power.

    Sensors however do kind of work that way if you think about it - but only to 50m - extending this range would be nice, but I tend to think sensors make things a little easy. I like the scanning idea (like the LIDAR) where hits aren't guaranteed. I'd just like them to happen at longer ranges and more often.
     
  12. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    I agree a good radar system should have counters like it does in real life. For instance in real life if you switch your radar on and leave it on its possible for enemy planes to use anti radiation missiles to home in on the signal and ride it back to its destination to destroy it. Something like that in SE would be very nice and a good counter. I don't agree though that PVE players should be able to comphide if they don't want to fight
    Get Free Destination. This was Keen's proprietary radar code that was available to players before that was functionality was then taken away. It's still in the game but they won't let us use it anymore.
    --- Automerge ---
    The problem is a lot of current servers are setup in ways that don't encourage PVP be intentionally or not. For instance I would say that a majority of the servers out there today use either infinite world size or something just as huge. Not only does this add lag but there is no point building any kind of warship since the odds of encountering another player are slim to none.

    Back in the day there used be this server called Lawless PVP. As the name implied there was no rules, the admin (Mr Bean - a fantastic admin) would perform daily cleanups to remove all the carnage caused by war and make sure the server performance was steady. It had a world size of 100km, no planets (helped massively with reducing lag) and the majority of the asteroids were clustered in the middle except for a few low yield stragglers scattered around the edges. There was some block limits using SE Server Extender for blocks like drills, grinders, welders and turrets all of which helped with server performance.

    In terms of mods it had a 300ms speed mod and a radar mod that would work to about 20km (the view distance), a couple thruster mods, plus some interesting weapon mods. This server ran for around 2 years and in that time it was always and always popular. It was one of the few true PVP experiences that a player could get in this game. There was huge battles on that server pretty much everyday.

    The following video was taken on that server, where we wiped out an enemy base that had attacked us using a giant cluster weapon.


    The good news though is I have been talking with someone and if all things go according to plan a similar server and setup should be operational within the next month. A full dedicated server setup to encourage and create PVP.
     
  13. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    473
    In theory PvP should be two opposing forces battling it out for domination over an area, or resources, or just to test their metal..... but in practice, every time I've seen PvP actually taking place, it's one well established person raping someone (or otherwise bullying someone) who has little to no ability to defend themselves. I'm sure experiences are different across the board, but it does seem that a majority of the times I've seen PvP engaged in servers it has been exceedingly one sided... Like shooting puppies that are already drowning in a lake, I guess some people just like to rape others for lulz... which actually goes a long way towards explaining the world at large.
     
  14. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    256
    @NoThanks : I've been waiting for someone to say that.

    I hear a lot of requests for radar or something to find players that don't want to be found. Generally the only time players want to be found is when they have a warshhip ready but at no other time.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    Yes and No that can happen but if you play on a good dedicated PVP server the admin will try to divide the server up into relatively even sized factions. So instead of 10 factions with 3 people in them and then one large one you have a more far more even game and better competition to fight. At the end of the day its no fun shooting at little starter ships, it is much fun to do battle against properly developed factions that have sizable loot worth taking.
     
  16. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    473
    @Bullet_Force Yeah, see this is kind of what I mean, the way you say it, it feels like all PvP must be a battle royale, last man standing... every one fights. And sure, that's a branch of PvP, but it isn't the entirety of it. I don't get the feeling that most "space engineers" are quick to fight... most are more or less defensive and cautious that I've seen... who wants to spend a week building a sweet-ass ship only to have it torn apart in a rather pointless fight over... bragging rights.... what is this... Call of Duty?

    I know I don't. I do however like the challenge of having to adapt to other players, be it to avoid them or defend against them... and I enjoy the uncertainty of a server where a passing engineer could be a friend... or a foe and you simply won't know until shit goes down.. Are you ready? No? Well you should have been out a little further, or started building turrets a little sooner or what have you. But saying that ALL players MUST be able to be engaged with PvP at any time the ATTACKER chooses (hence the radar to find unwilling combatants...) well that sounds an awful lot like picking on people who don't want to fight. And if all you want to do is use a block to find and bully, harass, or otherwise destroy persons that aren't actively looking for combat... well... That person should absolutely have a way to ditch your ass as soon as you ping his location. Could be as simple as jumping randomly until your attacker has no idea where you are... but it should be a block that will negate the advantage of active radar. This way you ping and find other players that are looking to fight, but those that are covered can continue doing their thing without being harassed by overzealous warmongers.

    Also, for the record... ECM would open up doors for wicked PvP sneak attacks to utterly decimate someone who has no idea you're coming and no ability to prepare for said attack... shocked no one pointed that out.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    On the servers I am referring to people play on there because they want regular and constant PVP. These are hardcore PVP servers where PVP is the main aim of the game. It is true on such servers players will loses bases and ships quite often but there are number of factors that make the loss acceptable. One is the increased rates, good PVP servers will lets players build ships fast so that they can get back into battle again in a short amount of time.

    The other is what I will call PVP logic which is very much different from how your average casual/PVE player likes to play . PVP logic covers many things but where it differs most from PVE is that it advocates functionality over aesthetics. You won't see many of those large workshop "battleships" made of light armor and armed with 5 turrets on them floating about on these servers. Such a ship wouldn't last a few minutes in a proper fight. A solid PVP design is compact, well armed and well armored and often far more boxier then your regular Hollywood style spaceship.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  18. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Well that is easy. The radar would obviously be tailored to the majority. That means PVE players and as such easily countered. However, that resistance could be made moddable so it could just be plain switched off... either by the counter being a block on its own that could simply be disabled from a game, or a simple boolean switch on the radar to disable the reaction to the counter.
     
  19. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,945
    Here's an idea... instead of radar... how about being able to detect nuclear signatures? The greater the amount of nuclear power active on a grid, the longer the distance it can be detected at. With radar, it seems we'd have to invent counter-measures etc. But if active nuclear reactors gave away positions, balancing could obtained by players' careful building. This would give strategic value to solar panels and batteries. Currently, there's little reason for them once you've refined a kilogram of uranium. Using a small reactor allows you to run an absurd amount of refineries with no penalties. But if doing so would allow for detection, the player would have to balance the risks versus the rewards. Large warships with multiple large reactors would be very "noisy" and not very stealthy. Smaller ships running on batteries would run silent.

    No idea is perfect. But I'm just throwing it out there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  20. thefinn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    Perhaps engines as well. Heat signatures/Radio Waves.
    It would be a lot nicer than enemy ships showing up on the HUD frankly.
     
  21. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    256
    Been discussed before
    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/s...ng-player-interaction-in-multiplayer.7399245/
     
  22. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,945
    Of course it has. I've even mentioned it in a few posts months/years ago before that post. But thank you for your non-contributing post.
     
  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Oddly enough, talk about radar tends to morph into PvP interaction. Radar is the tool you use to find people that are hiding, and kill them. Specifically, it makes it easier for players in Enterprise class ships to spot those pesky small grid fighters. You don't need radar to find another large ship (I know. I have one ;)). This, too, is a result of applying terrestrial thinking to space combat. If long range radar was added to the game it would make little difference. It would just mean both sides could find each other from greater distances and take appropriate actions. Nothing would change except you see people sooner.

    I've used the Active Radar mod since it came out. I like having radar for navigation. All the weapons on my large ship aim themselves if they have to. Many of my ships are not armed. Remaining undetected by hostile contacts is standard practice.

    Servers set up for constant battle are dime-a-dozen. Warcraft dominate the Workshop. Despite the obvious heavy mining and building emphasis in the game, most people tend to get all giddy about building a ship that can make mincemeat out of other ships. Yeah, there are a lot of servers out there that promote that. Radar wouldn't help them. Just cause more arguments about "balance".

    It's a shame that PvP has to mean "fight", and "hardcore" PvP means total annihilation. It's because you can have war without consequences. Ships get blown to bits but players just keep coming back for more. You wouldn't see so much of it if servers had Permanent Death enabled. That sort of thing is fine for games you can play on your phone during your lunch break. SE is more sophisticated than that, and the PvP should be as well.[/QUOTE]
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    814
    Yes, it is a pity most people's understanding of multiplayer ends at PvP fight and blowing up each other, with or without early detection by radar devices. And because game companies know that, they produce endlessly war games. It's a sure ticket. But too much of it becomes boring, and it has a tendency to suffocate other concepts. Glad we have Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers, who give them what they are lusting after, but still serves the rest of us who have other plans and know other thrills. Such as unlimited creativity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    If you are not going to attack people what is the point of making a battleship then? Fly around and stare at it in awe?

    Also regardless of ship size be it a small fighter or some giant workshop creation, the odds of finding another player in space on most servers is very rare. That is why this game needs a long range radar and I get there are PVE players out there that don't like the idea and want to be left undisturbed but if they play on PVE servers then they won't have any problems. This is a PVP issue that is of no concern to PVE players.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  26. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    473
    I play on a PvE/PvP server. PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive and I am really incredulous at how you seem to think they are. PvP/PvE in essence means that you can choose to work together or you can choose to war together. There is no reason that ALL PvP must be hardcore arena style shoot-em up combat... if that's the server you wanna play on fine... Don't care. Not my duty to dwell on the minutia of your preferred play style. But on servers where the two are not black and white extremes that are completely incompatible there should NOT be a blanket system where one player can forcibly locate any other player. If you want that as a mod or a DISABLE-ABLE option then... maybe. But I for one like the idea of being able to hide when I want to.

    And as for what the point in making a battleship is... I would imagine it's different for everyone. Some honestly like to design and build. Some like to fight. As for the odds of finding another player in space being rare... yeah not so much since they ALL spawn in roughly the same area (around one of the planets or that location if the planet isn't in the world)... So making an active radar that can track anybody is just making a system where the first... best established asshole can sit over the spawn area and destroy everyone that doesn't do what he or she says to do.

    But no... that's a system that could never be abused right? Spawn camping is definitely not a thing anyone would ever do... Certainly not someone who's just built a kick-ass warship and wants to flaunt it to everyone around. Simply amazing.

    And... the odds of finding another player and their stuff are only low if the player (and their stuff) are smart enough to stay out of the main lanes of travel. If they aren't... you can run across many player's items. And I promise you... Any change like that is going to be a concern of ALL players, irrespective of their play styles. I am not however going to further argue this point so, if you feel like you've won the thread then... congrats. Qa'Plah.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    ideally pvp should only take place between those who want it.

    As a player with an epic meta conforming warship, the thing I want to do the most with it is go push someone's shit in and revel in them being salty. this is fair enough in my opinion, it's really just human nature. But i think people just have to accept that going around clubbing seals isn't healthy for the playerbase of the game. As it stands i think the way the game works where you could technically be spotted but be it pretty rare is a fairly good foundation for simultaneous PVE and PVP multiplayer interaction. it should be expanded upon by creating incentives for pvp encounters - strong signals are a good example of this as people fight over rare loot spawns. We also have full support for broadcasting your exact location in the chat and inviting people to fight.

    The point of building a kickass warship is to test it against other people's kickass warship, point and laugh when they chicken out, and get humiliated when they actually come and kick your ass after you talked all that shit. it's not for throwing your weight around people that dont want it.

    What I think the game really needs to get pvp going is to foster it's online community, creating reasons to fight, improving reccomended concurrent player numbers for higher interaction chances, possibly more pcu, and continuing to fix rubberbanding and any other online issues. If SE can have all that by the time the game launches, it will have all the tinder it needs to start the community fire that will make the rest all that much easier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  28. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Unfortunately you are asking for something to be installed in the game that will affect both. If it gets put in the game, PvE players will be "concerned". PvP players cannot take ownership of the game and tell PvE players to go elsewhere.

    If PvP is your thing, and your friends' thing, and your server admin's thing, you should all get together and get a long range radar mod installed. If, after three months, there is anyone left on the server that still thinks it's a good idea, send Keen your server stats.
     
  29. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    A PvE/PvP server is not a PVP server, those kind of servers are 90% PVE. I was server hopping the other day and happened to join one of those. I spawned in some box room with 30 odd rules plastered on the wall, one of which was "You are not allowed to attack other factions unless they agree". No real PVP server would ever have such a stupid rule. There can't be a middle ground, it does not work. You either play PVP or you play PVE.

    I propose that a drop down menu be added where players can pick from PVP or PVE. Depending on which option is chosen will determine whether PVP blocks such as weapons, warheads and radars are available in the game. A very simple solution that will keep everyone happy. For PVE players they can build and farm to their hearts content out their in the middle of space without having to worry to about pesky PVP player with weapons. For PVP players it means their game mode gets the tool it needs to properly develop.
     
  30. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    103
    I tried to trade for resources because the surrounding environment basically doesn't allow me to build anything at all, only to find out the dudes who traded are not friendly.....and hoo boy I don't have to say how badly it went for me.

    The major reason why PvP in SE is incredibly toxic is really just because of offline raiding if there is no "do not engage targets that are not in war" or something equivalent that prevents base rape. It certainly doesn't feel good if somebody came by and just raped your base open especially turrets are prone to turret sniping themselves, meaning once you are found and you are not online, all your creations are basically just outright screwed, which is why all players simply will just spread out and gtfo from anywhere near non-friendly players (even friendly players could be spies or trolls that will betray you somehow in a public server, which I have experienced first-handed).

    Adding something like a radar that works only within 5 km radius PROBABLY will still be an OK-ish idea for detecting enemy engaging warcrafts. But a radar spanning a hundred km or so is simply just asking to be abused by seal clubbers that owns ships that could easily overwhelm weak bases or respawn ships with absolutely no hope of fighting back. If you just want to duke it out with somebody you could always just spam your GPS coordinates into the chat and see who wanted to have a nice ship duel, instead of forcing players that probably either are pacifists or seals to be your target.

    You are contradicting yourself here. If 90% are PvE, then you still got the (albeit small) portion of players that are warmongering PvPers. Plus what do you even mean it either has to be PvP or PvE? Why can't there be a middle ground since you can always have a sizable NPC faction that is always here to kill you instead of bringing the fight to bystanders that simply doesn't even want to, or is so weak they wouldn't even be able to fight? It is even less plausible to be either black or white here - Even something like Grand Theft Auto Online also has PvP and PvE and can happen simultaneously (and whenever players could intervene another players' PvE experience, there ALWAYS be some sort of assholes that just like to ruin your day by blowing up your cashmakers for the evulz). The problem is just people always turn into absolute monsters when they know there will be no consequences for whatever they do and they will always pick the weaker ones to bully because they can't fight back.

    The system probably sounds logical but in reality it would be so absurd it is infinity worse that banning players from attacking other factions that aren't agreeing to war. You are essentially banning players that are not going to attack other players from using the same tools to deal with their environmental threat (aka NPCs), or even just a tool of construction (such as blowing up an asteroid/hill to mine resources or demolish unwanted grids) with absolutely no reason at all.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.