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Game Needs A Long Range Radar System

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Jul 26, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,539
    One system I tried on a server long ago that worked quite well was having different spawn ships for PVE and PVP that spawned in areas with a huge separation distance and no jump drives.
     
  2. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    PvP being toxic isn't particularly a SE problem, you find it in most MMO games which fail to give working save areas or other protective measures for peaceful players. In 'Naval Action', for instance, the "seal clubbing" problem (there I heard the expression for the first time) is the one thing the devs there are working on most of the time, as they and the community are positive about this being the main problem for players not returning into the game, it's just too frustrating getting killed by the pro's again and again.
    And I also think PvP in SE does not have to necessarily follow a bully's idea of what PvP ought be - just killing each other and that's all.
    PvP can be so much more and then also attract less bullying players and those who like competition, but not always competition in crude behavior patterns like who is shooting first and survives.
    So PvP could be scenarios like:
    (1) two mining companies for whom two groups of players work. Task is to get more ore than the competitor. So after a preset time, collected ore will be counted and a winner declared. Maybe some kind of trophies.
    (2) in addition to (1), two companies are also competiting in who is building a ship of certain dimensions first, for getting to the next planet. Comes first, serves first.
    (3) Survival scenarios where factions find themselves stranded on a planet and each one has restrictions of some kind in materials or tools or what could be built, so the task is to come to terms with the other team and cooperate to make it back into space and escape.
    (4) Any situation which involves an alien faction, who is much stronger, and two or three multiplayer factions have to team up for fencing off the AI-enemy. Also includes building defense structures together. Team management in the first place.
    (5) Stellar company offers rare (mod) technology for freelancers who fulfill certain tasks ahead of others, who try that simultaneously. Winner gets the prize.
    (6) Free scenario but whenever a player turns violent against a fellow player without reason, the victim can call the 'space police' which shows up in force to arrest the aggressor (means spending some time in kyro, his inventory confiscated). If he resists and fights, of course they will shoot on him too. They get reinforcements, so the longer the fight the lesser the chance he will get away with it.
     
  3. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    366
    "Toxic"? I am surprised you didn't throw in the other meaningless words griefers and trolls.

    A PVP server that is toxic is a very fine PVP server, one worthy of the name.

    When it comes to PVP Space Engineers is actually very tame compared to other games out there. You have a battle, one side wins, the winners take their ship and their loot and the battle is over. The loser regroups to fight another day, the winner goes to find the next target.

    I play a few games other then SE and one of the best ones for PVP is ARK Survival Evolved which also happens to be a PVP survival game where instead of spaceships you have dinosaurs you can tame and breed.

    In that game on Official PVP servers there are no rules. It is kill or be killed. If you are building a base and you see your neighbor down the road is also starting to build a base, your ARK brain tells you he needs to die. Its common sense that it is only a matter of time before he will attack you. So you know what you need to do. You fetch your rocket launcher and you kill him and all his dinosaurs, you demolish the foundations, take all his loot and salt the earth.

    He will return they always do and when he does you will kill him again because if you don't he will most definitely seek revenge on you. At some point after killing and wiping every new base he tries to build his spirit will break and he will lose the will to fight. At this point he will go to another server and you have won.

    Now you might say well that is a bit mean but its really not, its legitimate warfare in that game. It's how tribes conduct business. You have have to be ruthless because everyone else is and if they see your tribe is weak other tribes will circle around like vultures waiting to strike.

    PVP in Space Engineers is more then just players shooting at each other in big arcade style battles that last an hour and then its all over.

    That is nothing more then the end product. As well as battles there is always a good economy game. Ships cost resources and resources have to be mined and manufactured. Factions need mining ships, and a base to produce the parts.

    In a good PVP setup, the server is forcibly divided into roughly equal player size factions, on a small map with no planets with the resources mostly concentrated in the center with some other smaller clusters of asteroids. The idea is that to concentrate the resources together in a small area therefore encourage factions to fight over them. The servers are generally high enough that you recover fairly rapidly after losing a battle. The turnaround should be around 1-2 for very large ships.
     
  4. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    Due all respect, I can't stop thinking how pathetic your statement regarding to PVP sounds like, and is a confirmation of why humanity will never have peace altogether because you just eliminate anybody that is simply just geographically close to you, benign or not.

    The way how you phrased it is "it's perfectly fine if somebody base-rapes your stuff when you are offline or just getting started because you are weak and you deserve to die". This is not PvP but is essentially Gangster Logic in the name of "PvP", and is by no means "good gameplay".

    The problem is, why it's "to kill or to be killed" and is only "to kill or to be killed"? Why there can't be peace? Why must that particular somebody someday wants to kill you everyday and once there is a chance, instead of just minding his own business and develop his force solely to prevent people like you to eliminate him for no reason? I myself know it sucks to have everything of yours destroyed and lose hours of work, even though I will not hesitate to destroy others that provoked me or are hostile, yet even I were to own a bunch of ships (and I had before) I never actively engage into others just to see the world burn because it simply sucks - waging an uncontrolled battle is expensive and nobody is happy.

    Your theory is simply bullshit and serves nothing more than finding a reason to bully people, which will only force people to hide into deep space to get away from harmful players like you even if there are player-pinging devices. It's not even PVP - You are just "monitering" others such that they won't become a threat to you in strength just like how the USA is trying to deadlock China, and I am pretty sure with the currently already toxic meta (offline raiding, box ships etc) a pinging device will do nothing but worsen the situation. The "ideal" PvP you talked about involving torching everything the "probably" enemy team had simply denies PvP in its finest with absolutely no way of coming back - Once the snowballing had started there is no way you are countering that, and you simply just wanted to force somebody out of the server because it's fun. "Rape" is more like the word you are trying to imply - the one inflicting it thinks it's fun but not for the victim.

    Yet, we are not having a legitmate war. We are having a fucking game for our fucking pleasure, yet people are just trying to fucking murder everything and fucking kill all people that are weak and are such a pussy and dare not trying to challenge people equal or larger than their size (FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON WHY THEY ONLY ELIMINATE STARTING PLAYERS). If you want war, why not just declare to others and challenge others for war? Why I am obligated to work with people that possibly are freeriders or trolls?

    Plus a legitimate warfare isn't just "kill everybody" - reducing the amount of potential enemies by simply not engaging them and not be hostile to them, while letting them know screwing with you is also going to heavily mess them up is also a sort of tactics. Who doesn't like Win-Win conditions where everybody is happy and nobody is harmed.

    There are so many flawed or outright horrifyingly twisted ideals in your statement. I'm so glad there isn't a radar device, and safe-zones are implemented to protect the weak from getting raped everywhere by such unconditional hostility.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    419
    There are rules. They define the game and are clearly obvious to anybody who learn the game. Like we have the LAW in RL. But the law in RL is only a part of our living together. There is a more complex code of conduct that is written nowhere. And because you can only learn it by watching and experience it, many young people think they don't have to respect it. But they still get the consequences, equal if they notice it or not.
    All whar we do, or do not, has consequences. Sometimes someone else has to pay the price, but usually it always falls back on one self. This was something I had to teach my son the hard way, and it hurt me as much as it hurt him. In RL, we can't just switch to another game. But in the virtual world, we build something, and then we find a new interesst and move on. It's just a game, and I don't care for it. Beat the guy up because I can. It has no consequences for me, I'm anonymious in the web.

    NO, you are not. Now image if the one you bullied on the server suddenly stands at your door and beats you up. Do you also say, that's life? Or are you running crying to the Cops? Yea, I know, teenager males think nothing in the world can beat them. Well, be warned that this are just your hormones deceive your perception.

    In your own post you're talking about tribes. But this alone implies that a group of individuals work together for a bigger goal, a common wealth, which leads to, well, a commonwealth. And as long as resources are abundant, there is peace and prosperity. Only if resources are sacre or finite, then conflicts arise.

    Luckely the battles in SE are quite pricy on both sides, a victory usually a pyrrhic victory, so that it isn't really paying of and damm dangerous if there are others in the region to wipe up the victor.

    Now imagine you're struck by clang and your laboriouse mining ship just explode to pieces, wouldn't it be nice if your neighbors help you with ingots and parts to rebuild it?

    Or you have a Bully on the server and you all stand together to beat him thill he leaves for easyer prey?

    Or having refuel station along the way from Planet to planet? Or a common rely network?

    Playing together seems more benefical in SE than beating each other.

    But it is in your hands if you stick together or if you're more like my initale quote...

    But back on Topics, we need a long range detector, be it RADAR or an infrared camera. It would be alone nice if you could predict the distance of asteroids. Finding other players is a nice plus.
     
  6. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    426
    Are you really winning when your server closes because no one goes there any more? There is no pvp involved in that scenario because all that will happen, like it does in a lot of building games is that you will wait until your "opponent" is offline and go trash their stuff with impunity. Then scuttle home beating your chest that you are a "hardcore pvper" where in fact it was all PVE.
     
  7. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    814
    Thank you for the confirmation of why every great game needs to be protected against griefers and testosterone-shaken, trigger-happy destructive personalities on their ego trip at the expense of others. By all means, I don't want to see this game SE suffer from the effect I have seen on other games, and the word 'toxic' appropriately describes that effect. Driving players away from a game means to threaten the life and success of that game; if not met, it will see a few bullies left alone at the end and no population left, and that is usual the end of a game brand. It is dead. If this result is seen as 'achievement' by the bully, he most likely is really sick in his head.

    Sometimes I think it would be nice to invite a fellow engineer into my world and show him around on one of my stations or ships, to hear his comments and proposals, like between creative colleagues, ... but then I wonder about the persons with missing empathy or social competence outta there who might suddenly turn against me and my builds because I am a "threat", or out of envy, or because he enjoys my reaction, or he gotta prove something to himself - and then I am glad again my world isn't open to multiplayer and dedicated to singleplay only. No thanks, such visits I don't want.

    A long range radar in their hands? You bet they will just become nastier than ever before. So this only makes sense when being accompanied by a cloaking device for countering radar and used against being detected.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    473
    Why do I get the feeling that the OP is about to start calling people "snowflakes" and chest thumping about 'Murica?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    366
    In that game i mentioned (ARK) it can take many weeks and months of hard effort to rise to the top. That is countless hours of work to achieve dominance and the much sought after "Alpha Status" on a particular server. When you have achieved that it is in your tribe's best interests to ensure that no one else on the server can threaten your position. ARK Official PVP servers are all linked together and a threat can come from many directions so it is ideal to try and manage the threats by removing an easy source of threats that is from other tribes on your server.

    At the same time a dead server with just your tribe on it is not ideal either because an enemy Mega Tribe (A Tribe consisting of many Alpha Tribes combined) could invade your server with upwards of 50 players and you wouldn't have the numbers to deal with them. So in this case you want to install "Beta" tribes to be both a lookout and the cannon fodder when the invasion happen. An ideal Beta Tribe is typically made up of newer players, unambitious players, PVE players or just players that are willfully ignorant of the way things work. The Beta tribe will act as an expendable ally that will also serve as an extra pair of eyes and help your Alpha tribe maintain territorial control over the server. The Alpha tribe will permit the Beta tribes to build a base at a predetermined location which is almost always right next to the entry portals for the server. When an invasion happens the invaders will need to secure one of these portals to bring in supplies and weapons and as such by having the Beta's base built there not only does it blocks access but it forces the invasion force to expend their ammunition on the Beta's base first.


    You obviously missed the part where I was trying to differentiate between ARK and Space Engineers when it comes to PVP.

    In PVP the aim is to kill and conquer the enemy. That's the base goal of PVP but obviously there is more to it then that and you can have alliances and other factors that may determine different results but the base aim remains the same.

    Overall PVP in Space Engineers is quite "nice" compared to some other games out there so I don't really get what all the fuss is with this radar thing. If you are a PVE player your not going to be playing on PVP servers anyhow.
    --- Automerge ---
    No there really are no game specific rules on Official PVP servers in ARK. You can go to their website and check it out if you don't believe me. There is a rule against using third party cheat software and a rule against exploiting and that is basically it.

    If you see a player walking naked along the beach go and shoot him, nothing is going to happen.
     
  10. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    814
    For someone who is stuck in basic tribal relations of stone age, with dominance ideas of "alpha males/tribes" wielding clubs and doing havoc on losers, skipping a few thousand years of human civilization with its various partnership models which were tought by blood, sweat and tears (should I add ashes), you seem pretty technically advanced with that "radar" idea. Ahhh - but it was only picked up because it promises even more ego boosts, otherwise denied by invisible cowardly ducking away weaklings... :mad: Welcome to the next stage of social darwinism.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  11. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    103
    One wrong doesn't automatically make it right. I am not an Ark Survival player as the game doesn't interest me, but if this PvP style is a good system on its own, it wouldn't become a situation where the game is so toxic to the point people will just private their account profile and name themselves 123 so that others can't track their names on a server.

    And then you choose to bully other players into your bidding, and/or use them as your expendible resources instead of maintaining a more long-termed relationship? This is such an American way of thinking.....oh wait a second, you already bullied your newbie neighbors to death with your mighty ego and deny their rise by nothing but this so called "survival rules", where do you go and get these Beta Tribe? Bully them into the server?

    In addition, who the fuck wants to be your Beta Tribe or something especially you will someday just turn your back on them or leave them to die by the enemy mega tribe? This is some traditional emperor style of thinking to control a few generals and give them territories, yet again this is a game and everyone is more or less equal instead of having real life limitations such as ranking and relationship networks. What makes you think that the others will be your lackey instead of just standing independently?

    Oh, and you run away from the true moment where you can finally have PvP with a stronger clan. How convenient that is.

    If this is your ideal of PvP and you insist this game must be the same Chernobyl level of messed up in these "PvP The Dude With The Biggest Guns Locally Gets It All And Runs Away Like A Pussy When A Dude With A Bigger Gun Shows Up" sort of gamestyle, I rather SE MP to never exist in the first place.

    And this is why humanity is doomed to fail and destroy itself in the long term, period.

    I would absolutely hate playing in such kind of server with somebody with a big ship that could easily fuck up every respawn ship with ease. What, respawn somewhere and restart? Sorry, with that pinging device you are absolutely fucked one way another because there is no way in hell you can escape the vicinity of the hostiles, and the only thing you can do is leave the server and hope there isn't such as asshole in the next server or just quit official PvP servers altogether. Oh but sorry this kind of gameplay is "promoted" and consequence-less.

    This is the exact same thing with bunkers and VIP missions for lower level, friend-less players in GTAO. The bigger guns can just fuck them over and over and prevent them from doing anything, while BEING REWARDED WITH PISS-POOR VALUES OF MONEY BY NOBODY OTHER THAN THE GAME ITSELF DESPITE THEY ARE OTHERWISE UNREWARDED. SOLELY TO RUIN SOMEBODY'S DAY.

    This is a fucking game. Stop putting up all this nonsense of "standing to the top" as a strawman to provide yourself a totally acceptable reason to do nothing but seal clubbing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  12. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,945
    It seems we've devolved into a debate about the ethics of PVP and the effects of relentless dominance of a server killing game-play on that server. It will be a never-ending debate. There's always a counter-argument.

    In my opinion, any system of detection has to center around making players who have advanced easy to detect and those who are small nearly impossible to detect. A system that's built around grid size, power output, etc. would seem more balanced.

    Some factors may be:
    Grid Size
    Power output
    Block usage (like reactors)
    Jump drive usage
    Etc.

    We have weapons in the game, heavily armored blocks, block damage... so I believe some PVP was intended. But PVP is something that currently RARELY happens do to the immense size of most maps and the abundance of resources uniformly distributed on servers making it impossible to find anyone else.

    PVP elements exist currently in the game... but the server world can't be easily balanced in a way that prods more advanced players to compete in areas that are more abundant in resources making growth more efficient for larger players but dangerous for smaller players. IMHO, a server world that allows for multiple zones of procedural asteroids to be spawned with definable ratios of ore distributions would be helpful.

    If there was a way to make the distance between asteroids become exponentially further from each other the further out from the origin point would be great for balancing players as well. Larger players would gravitate to where resources were abundant (causing conflict) while smaller players would seek the safety of the far reaches... where efficiency goes down but safety increases (where it's less efficient to hunt for other players as well).

    Okay... it's a bit of a ramble... but the balancing of maps hasn't even been considered yet and is in need of some logical world making capabilities before the debate over PVP can even be had. You're arguing over what time to set a broken watch to, guys. No one will ever concede any part of their position in the argument at this point, so you're just flailing against each other for the point of just flailing. It's your right to do so... but you're just wasting oxygen.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    [​IMG]
    This thread got real serious real quick.
     
  14. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    @zachusaman that's why I said Qa'Plah and moved on. Funny though to watch, I hope it continues.
     
  15. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    This went well.

    Obviously, any sort of sensor implementation is going to need some careful balancing.
     
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I used to think that a long range ore detector was a great idea. The original Azimuth Overclocked Ore Detector had a range of five kilometers. It also lagged my game to a halt. Recently we have seen some really interesting scripts that can let drones hunt for ore autonomously. I'm finding that idea more appealing. Similarly, I suspect a network of sentry drones might work just as well if not better than a long range radar that Keen is reluctant to put in the game.

    There are people that actually like no-holds-barred PvP, and there are games out there that will scratch that itch for them. Those games don't work like SE, so it's not fair to apply their rules and rationales. ARK was obviously built to encourage that style of playing and new players need to be aware. Thing about ARK and those other games is that you can probably figure out what your opponent might do because all the weapons are defined and you know what to expect. SE is not a PvP game. It's not a PvE game either, for that matter. To be precise, it's not a survival game. It's a sandbox game with survival elements. It's only a PvP game if you make it a PvP game. You or your server admin can configure an SE world that would make ARK look like pre-school nap time if that's what you want. You could create a level of brutality that would make Attila the Hun crap his pants. My point was that a vanilla long range radar wouldn't necessarily affect the outcome of any particular encounter. If it's vanilla it has to be balanced or players will reject it. That means there would have to be a way to passively detect long range radar beyond it's effective range so you can evade or use countermeasures. Your list of targets will be the same clueless players you're finding already.

    I like the sentry drone idea because the game already has all the parts and all you need is a good, performance-friendly script.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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