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GoodAI in Space Engineers

Discussion in 'General' started by doncdxx, Jan 19, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    If you go to ~\SpaceEngineers\Content there are 2 folders at the bottom, Brains and AISchool.
    They seem to be for GoodAI. The brain files look like they are for the GoodAI Brain Simulator and the AI school looks like game save files intended to train the AI.

    This leads me to wonder if they intend to add it to the game or if they're just teasing us. Maybe it's there for modders, maybe it's just there for them to do their own GoodAI work without needing a separate dev build. The files have been there for more than a year, so it's probably not going to be usable to the average player any time soon.

    Anyone know anything? Any announcements? Any modders tried using brain simulator files in SE somehow? Any information at all?


    Personally, I'm hoping to use AI characters in missions made with the visual scripting tools, even if just as useless characters that the player(s) have to protect that are capable of little more than walking around large grids and sitting in chairs.
     
  2. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    It was used for a testing plugin. GoodAI has nothing to do with Space Engineers and they don't plan any further implementation. The GoodAI AI is a research project, not a gaming one. Sorry to disappoint you :/ it's been in there for ages and the topic pops up every now and then.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    There was a talk right around the time ME came out about GoodAI being incorporated into SE and ME. Don't you remember ME's NPC heavy "clan mode" the devs talked about? I sure do, because that sounded like the coolest and most original idea I'd heard in years. I've been hyped for it since it was mentioned.

    Looking through the install folder gives so much cause for speculation. Other than GoodAI files, there's also still the icons for potassium and organics. The fact they haven't tidied it up yet feels weird and makes one wonder whether they're plans or abandoned ideas. Like it contributes to that feeling a lot of fans have where they just want to know what Keen is up to. I can understand them not wanting to get people's hopes up, especially since they're not certain they can deliver on anything they might have the ambition for but not the time or manpower to actually accomplish.

    Not even considering the bugs yet to be fixed, the game feels really incomplete. I'm 6k hours into an incomplete game, so I can't really complain. Regardless, I can't help but wonder if the game is ever going to fully live up to it's potential or if they're just going to bug fix it as well as they can and just call it done.
     
  4. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,725
    Just wondering has there been anything "other than this" found in the game files "recently" that has hinted at anything to come for the future of Space Engineers?
     
  5. Malware Master Engineer

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    This again? :p

    Those plugins are to provide an environment to test the ai, not to bring GoodAI based gameplay. GoodAI is not game Ai and traditional game Ai will be much better for games for years to come yet.

    This stuff is maintained by GoodAI, not Keen. And yes that's two different companies :)
     
  6. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    What talk there was was not from Keen .... the only talk I saw was from speculating community members who had seen the folders in the game structure.

    Marek officially stated there was no intention to use GoodAI in the game, and that it was totally unsuitable for that purpose anyway. They had used SE as a sandbox to test some aspects of GoodAI.

    We saw wind turbines and ice powered engines last year with promises that they were coming as part of the survival update planned. There is no ETA on these for release though. We used to get Xocliw's videos every week, along with supporting streams focusing on releases and teasing new stuff. All that stopped along with most of the channels for comms between the community and Keen. Whether that was a planned strategy with the game in Beta I do not know. Xocliw is more of a variety streamer now...which in itself is no bad thing and is playing more ME....... His SE streams had got stale IMHO with the same handful of people always playing, and not being particularly watchable.
     
  7. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    434
    This leads to a certain logical paradox. If they're in the release and not just the dev version, then there's probably a way for modders to mess with it. If it requires code in the dev version to access, then why include the files in standard release?

    The only other thing I've seen recently is the tutorial campaign titled "Station 419". Looking through the visual scripting, it looks like tutorial that covers basic building, mining, and holding off waves of attacking ships. But there's also the battle option in save files that was removed sometime in the last year or so and the team friendly fire option that was never finished as far as I know. That gives the impression that they've already had ambitions for the game that have been dropped.

    From my (admittedly limited) understanding of machine learning, isn't it possible the machine learning could be reasonably applied to only certain aspects of behavior, such as learning more efficient routes to walk around grids. Then traditional gaming AI could be responsible for normal "decision making" behaviors.

    From what I've seen of Machine Learning in games, I'm fairly certain I don't want them learning how to dog fight in SE. No human could stand a chance.


    Either they don't actually have plans for it and they're just being messy or they do have plans for it but don't want to admit it because the PR dangers of hype. Then there's also the possibility that it was an ambition at first that had to be dropped because the average gamer's hardware is just not at the level to handle it or that it's a long term goal that is on hold until their AI get's more developed. It's hard to think it could work any time soon when the ME gathering NPC's haven't worked for some time now. Once they fix those NPC's in ME, if ever, this will likely become a topic of much speculation again.

    So basically, no knows anything for certain, but doubt is the safest guess.

    Edit:
    I forgot to cite this http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/06/guest-post-by-ondrej-petrzilka-medieval.html
    Scroll down to Clans section. This created much hype in me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,837
    Not for years yet. It's too early. People are having way too high expectations for AI. And "not game ai" has been a thing since the start. There's no secrets here. This is and always has been general AI.

    That clan AI thing has nothing to do with GoodAI. Just ordinary current-level game AI. Apples and oranges. Their research target is utility AI, not game AI.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  9. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    434
    "By integrating Brain Simulator into Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers, players will have the option to design their own AI brains for the games and implement it, for example, as a peasant character. Players will also be able to share these brains with each other or take an AI brain designed by us and train it to do things they want it to do (work, obey its master, and so on). The game AIs will learn from the player who trains them (by receiving reward/punishment signals; or by imitating player's behavior), and will have the ability to compete with each other. The AI will be also able to learn by imitating other AIs."

    Citation: http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/07/announcing-goodai-keen-software-house_7.html

    Am I the only person that remembers this?

    The long term goal maybe AGI, but gaming has always been a step in AI development.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  10. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,837
    No. This is another thing I keep repeating again and again about this. That plugin is already in there. Has been for a long time. But the purpose there is to create an environment for the brain, to test and challenge the brain, not to create interesting gameplay for the player. Unless you have a special interest in AI, that is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    434
    I most certainly do. I can't imagine making campaigns being exciting without it. I just want to know if anyone has heard anything new since to confirm whether it's still a goal or if it's an abandoned idea. Without any information one way or the other, it's just best to assume it's on the backburner until they get further in development.
     
  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,837
    No, GoodAI was never supposed to be used that way. The desired game AI and GoodAI is not related. There might still be some kind of AI in the game (although I doubt it), but it will not be GoodAI. It's not an abandoned idea. It was never an idea in the first place. Don't mix the two.

    GoodAI and its research work was an old dream of Marek Rosa's, one he was able to pursue due to the success of his games. He founded GoodAI from his own personal pockets, by $10 000 000.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    434
    "By integrating Brain Simulator into Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers"

    Are you saying Brain Simulator isn't part of GoodAI?

    Not to be rude, but you seem to be contradicting Marek's blog. Not to imply plans may not have changed since then (I haven't seen a statement confirming such), but Marek was talking about it's integration into the games since the beginning of GoodAI. Sure the idea could've have fallen apart since then, but those blog posts I cited have incited a great deal of daydreaming on the topic.
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,837
    No, I'm telling you what those statements actually mean as explained to me when I asked a GoodAI dev ;)

    And that was way back in the beginning. People have been misunderstanding the statements almost since day one. Most likely because they want it to be game AI. The integrations they talk about are, as I've already stated, about getting environments to test out the brains, and to play with the brains etc. Not to add AI to the games in any other way than through those integration plugins.

    Which are already there as they planned. Whether they actually work - I have no idea, but from what I hear they've been updated relatively recently.

    I'm sorry to be a hype killer, but people really need to understand the truth about this. Why do you think I'm so adamant about this, in so many threads? Do you really think I would just speculate, guess and make things up about this? What on earth would be the purpose in that? What do I have to gain? I want AI in SE as much as anyone. I just realize that this AI will not be GoodAI.

    Even if that AI really would be as good as people are fantasizing about, it requires NVidia hardware. In addition to that, it requires a lot processing power in and of itself, leaving less to the game. So that alone excludes it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Hazee Daze Trainee Engineer

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    27
    If it is really good AI, hypothetically they could pull it in anytime or anywhere they wanted into the product. If it is really good AI, they could just stick it on some hardware and let it run against the products. They could train it to debug, animate pixies, create missions, etc. It just sits on hw, right?
     
  16. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,911

    I think you'll find a lot of quotes that make it seem like great new things are just around the corner and they turn out to be more of public pipe-dreams. There have been plenty of features that have been mentioned in blog posts and never materialized. No judgment. Just relating my experience. I wouldn't invest in anything from anyone (including buying game titles) unless they can clearly demonstrate that the feature exists and is being implemented. Even then... be very wary.
     
  17. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Hype train graveyard.
     
Thread Status:
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