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How about a restart?

Discussion in 'General' started by guran, Mar 8, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. guran Trainee Engineer

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    Even if you dont agree with me, i like your point of view!

    edit: Quote
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  2. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    Must be from CA, talking about 'crumbs' lol.

    Sorry but being in the top 100 played on Steam is a pretty big deal, that goes for Indie or AAA developers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    I love the passion this game inspires in people. It's like talking about politics, or religion... You and everyone that supports you is RIGHT. And everyone else is a god-damned lunatic heretic that should be burned at the stake before they pass their genes on to future gamers. Almost like it's impossible to even have a civil discussion on the pros and cons of the game without indignant nay-sayers and gushing fan-boys alike coming crawling from the wood work to do battle as it was written in the before-time.

    Some people see 4,000 out of 12,000,000 players and say "Less than one, one-thousandth of a percent of the people that bought this game actually play it and that's not good", whereas others see that and say "Top 100 played on steam, For the WIN!"

    I stopped seriously playing the game quite some time ago... But this forum never ceases to amuse me, and in the end isn't that what the game is all about?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    When I saw this post the replier's name is "NoThanks" lol.

    Rather than taking out the game I would say let's just finish up the game's missing parts first and think of a restart if Havok became the bottleneck of the game.
    Current SE is still fine (apart from the choppy MP), taking it down or restarting it will just result in a mess that bugged SE and might result in even more bugs that wasn't found in the current version given Keen's power.
     
  5. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    It's simpler and more predictable on the one hand. On the other, you've got potential legal consequences if bugs cause accounting mistakes, right?

    I'm not a developer, but I've worked in IT in different capacities over the years, and some kinds of software are developed more cautiously and conservatively than others, and my impression's been that financial software's on the cautious side, game development on the bolder.
     
  6. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    I think SE 2 with a different and more versatile and powerful engine would be awesome, Shut up and take my money. But also I think if they abandon SE is not going to be good, even if they propose to give SE2 for a great discount for people that own SE, or even for free. Just reading some of the people that was mad about MW... and they was mad only because the game didn't have MP, or Devs couldn't make it work, or some stupid thing like that. well... same as SE kinda, they can't make MP to work decently, must by a PITA :/ I'm not that worry because I only play SP, even tho, you know, the lack of those so many interesting survival features everybody suggest over the years. I mean, everybody wants more and more to be added into SE, and if they don't add those things, they call it incomplete... ¬¬
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    Well, it is incomplete in the sense that it's in early access. Some folks need to exercise patience when it comes to certain features and issues.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Spets Master Engineer

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    didn't they offer SE for free or huge discount for people that bought MW? and incomplete how? I played it and it didn't appeared to be incomplete, in fact it was fun
     
  9. Malware Master Engineer

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    Don't you think I would have taken such things into account? Please stop making things more complicated than it is. Yes, there are more consequences with bugs in financial software than in games. But given the predictable nature of the environment it's much easier to find, reproduce and fix those bugs. And there's less complicated code for there to be bugs in. I'm telling you simple facts. :)

    @Spets I interpreted that as "if they were to stop developing SE now, while it's still unfinished, why would I give them money for SE2?"
     
  10. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    It is the unfortunate trap of having such vast potential that no matter what KEEN do, they can't reach it all and then some portion of the community gets annoyed because they diddn't focus on thier favorite part. Space Engineers could be a superb survival game, a decent multiplayer fps, a fleet battle stategy game, or any number of things really. But you'd be going until the end of time to make it do all the things and be the best game of all time.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Dax23333 Right. No matter what Keen does, there's gonna be fire in a sizable portion of the community. This is why I believe they should just "select one" and focus on that, whatever it is they want their game to be, focus their limited resources on that - since there's a heck of a bigger chance we'd get something good gameplay wise instead of lots of not-so-good.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    Given the current state of things, I'd suggest survival, with a minor side of fleet strategy, as focus. Seems more practical.
     
  13. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    I often wonder how far along development would have been by now without the player base demanding.. and KSH submitting, to adding planets to the game.

    Especially as we see planets as a rather ghost town sort of play area nowadays anyway.

    Planets was one of the big sidetracks in development, one that was never in the original roadmap. Add to this wheels, and our demand to fix said wheels... and we can see this sidetrack is more of a derailment. on the track to finished product.

    So KSH gets props for actually developing planets, and fixing wheels and all that... but we can see from this why the finished product was delayed.

    All we need now is a DX13 to come out...
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Calaban Maybe so. But as far as I'm concerned, without said planets, the game would be far inferior. Also the shift to DX11 was what has enabled a lot of the render performance increases.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    My day job is software QA; I catch oversights by experienced developers (who know more than I do) for a living.
    Totally agreed. I worry that Keen has an institutional bias towards "can-do" attitudes, where they don't want to give a clear "no" to anything. Eventually, that means not giving a clear "yes" to anything either.
    I'm fond of planets, but I've been getting to think that there's a point to this. For one thing, I've thought that the experience of developing planets taught Keen the wrong lesson, confirming that "can-do" attitude. For another, SE's foundation is asteroid mining, but people who start out with planet-based survival often argue that the planet experience would be improved by adding resources unique to planets, thus chipping away at SE's foundation.
     
  16. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    438
    Why would they want to drop SE? With each patch it gets a little better. Maybe they could make the next game more efficiently from what they've learned, but the current game is still getting better each patch.

    They've done an overhaul on sound and graphics. They did an overhaul on wheels. Maybe next they'll do an overhaul on NPC's (need more than just a spider and a wolf), or planets (atmospheres and terrain could look nicer) or characters (I want out-of-suit play). I almost never get the multiplayer bugs others do, but the devs will probably find a way to optimize MP further, and I look forward to it.

    Now consider that the scenario tools may massively further the sales of SE. When people can make dedicated race servers or combat servers or co-op story servers, all 3 of those can bring in hundreds, perhaps thousands of new players for each if executed properly. With each stability improvement they get closer to whatever sales they'll get from the people waiting for it to finish before trying it.

    When SE is Finished™, they may not stop there. With the growing player base they can get during that phase, they could run events to get more attention and stabilize a loyal player base for their future ambitions. By the time they get to that stage, home PC's may be strong enough they can finally handle the capital ship battles people want so bad.

    There's a lot more fun and profit for KSH to be had from SE and there's a lot more to lose from scrapping it and moving on then there is to gain.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. Malware Master Engineer

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    Well as an experienced developer I stand by my statements.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    I suspect/hope fixing wheels will help alleviate the "ghost town" issue.
    Hopefully the can do attitude is effectively applied to character customization posthaste. Yes, I went there.
     
  19. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    -We got procedural generation, but no practical reason to explore.

    -We got planets, but there`s no reason to be near them.

    -We have guns and weapons, but they`re stale and a pain to use.

    -We have In-game scripted AI, but its raw, annoying and spammy.

    -We have NPCs, but they`re the same as above.

    -We have oxygen, but there`s no reason for pressurized ships aside of RP.

    -We have meteor showers, but god, they couldn`t be shallower.

    -We have had two mayor graphical overhauls, but they turned a deaf ear to decoratiove blocks and variety... in a building game. (Plus scratched glass)

    -We have jumpdrives, but they are just a teleport in 10 seconds if you have enough power and the block is working with no other consideration.

    -We have modules, which allow us to customize the characteristics of what they`re attached to... but only two blocks use them.

    Each one of these features (and several more), have a lot of potential, to be deep, engaging, but, they are not, instead of tying down gameplay they`re just dead weight, gizmos in on themselves, nothing more. It`s what pains about SE, a lot of dedication and love has gone into it, but there`s no commitment to polish that love and make it all fit together.

    But well, that`s what I feel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    Jump drives certainly have enough room to attach modules, as do large grid large ions. You're welcome for the idea, Keen.
     
  21. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    Keen has added modules for gyros (and I think thrusters too) as mods, along with the sniper gun.

    :stare:

    I don`t get it.
     
  22. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    You've made a pretty fair assessment there.

    Personally I think if they fix the issues you lined up. They could call it a success and go into release. Then fix any bugs that need to be fixed, support the modding community with any hooks or API's they still need, and go on to their next project.
     
  23. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    850
    Oh, definitely, I too would call it a success and a mayor one at that, if most of this is fixed, since it`s what keeps the game alienating itself.
     
  24. damoran Junior Engineer

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    Couldn't have said it better, this pretty much sums up my feelings for SE in its current state. The real draw of the game always was and continues to be building and as far as I can tell, development on that stopped in 2015. I don't need an SE 2 but if one was proposed the big difference I'd want from the start would be a detailed road map of what the plan is so we don't get a repeat of what happened here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955
    I'll disagree with that. Planets are a novelty at this point. They don't really represent anything advantageous for the player. It's not the idea of planets but how they've been implemented that's the issue. With planets you can operate in an alternative environment to free-space. But once you leave a planet, there's no real reason to go back. There in lies a long lasting problem with SE and Keen. Again... gameplay. If there was some sort of advantage to refining or producing on a planet, then you have some interesting gameplay. Take for instance if resources on planets were extremely limited, but production yielded results that were faster and/or more plentiful. What if production required oxygen... even in space? However, on a planet with "free" oxygen that wasn't a concern? So perhaps players would mine in space, then transfer ore back down to the planet to take advantage of the environment.

    Wait... now you'll have players building infrastructure and ships to get ore back down to the planet and produce components planet-side. Now you have to get those components back into space either as a ship or being hauled by a ship.

    I'm not saying that's how it should be. But it now gives a REASON for planets to exist (at least those with oxygenated atmospheres). Again, gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. Currently it's novelty, novelty, novelty.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  26. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Ronin1973 disagree all you want, it's your right. For me, without the planets I'd probably be long gone.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    I would definitely finish SE before moving on to SE2 because:

    Leaving SE unfinished would make large part of community to ditch Keen.

    Leaving SE unfinished would leave those customers who dont play early access out cold. Preventing them from playing full price of the product( working SE will definitely be worth more than 20 on the release day)

    I dont know how large that achievable playerbase might be but i believe it is quite significant.


    After that.
    after that see what went wrong and what could be done better.
    If things could be done significantly better THEN make SE2.

    If they cant make significatly better product (its a sandbox, no real story to continue) then se2 coud be right choice.

    Othervise they might want tofollow up with different product.
     
  28. damoran Junior Engineer

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    I would not want to see SE be abandoned for SE 2. However, Merek has made it pretty clear, to me at least, that they really don't plan on delving deeper into most aspects of what is in SE now.

    Thus for those of us like myself that would have liked to see more development on their "proof of concept" additions (AI, NPC's, Modules etc. etc.) and even some fantastic ideas from the modding community done well in vanilla SE, we are pretty much left to wonder what if and/or rely on the modding community.

    What has been wrong and continues to be wrong with SE, in my opinion, is that while they have a great staff of dedicated developers nobody has connected the dots between these, seemingly random, concepts placed into the game.

    Space balls... Wolves/Cyberhounds? ..nuff said.

    Sabroids...great proof of concept...what happened? How about a few more models with different attacks to keep it interesting.

    Modules? great idea....lets just make 3 of them and tease about possible engine modules and never come back to it.

    Simply put, great talent, no direction.

    SE just needs a group of modders to come together and finish the game after keen puts the "released" stamp on it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    368
    You know what nags me is KEEN's pathetic bug fixing. If I go over the patch notes for this game I have no doubt that a statement about rotors being "Fixed" will appear over 10 times. Likewise pistons. In fact I would say its probably nearer to 20. Then to top it off they finally "fix" the issue by basically not fixing it at all and instead just deleting functionality and saying yep its fixed now. Then there is the infamous "Autopilot Enabled Bug" which they have been unable to reproduce/fix since 2013, the game breaking antenna bug which broadcasts your location to the entire server and the list goes on but hey at least they fixed the big issue affecting this game - the lack of pointless cosmetic items :stare:

    Maybe I am being too harsh but it seems to me that coders for this game are not the most competent around.

    As to this thread's initial idea I think realistically it is going to happen sooner or later. It's clear SE's current development has basically come to a stuttering halt with no real further performance improvements possible. At a guess I would say the problems are deeply rooted in the engine itself. It's clear this engine and game can't support realistically more then 5 players at a time per server. Anything more then 5 and it basically is a countdown to server crash. I took part in a test once on Keen's test server that had around 20 players on it doing nothing more then moving around and the server had 0.0 something sim speed:woot:

    If they are going to make a SE 2 it would probably be in their interests to use an existing engine rather then try and make their own again. There is a few voxel ones around. I would also suggest that they not neglect 50% of their player base and a large proportion of steam players by not including proper PVP content. Not everyone that plays this game wants to hold hands and paint rainbows on terribly designed ships...
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    I remember seeing countless amount of battery tweaks but i've never really seen the need for it.
    never really seen the need for it.
    true there's always the chance to get unlimited power somehow and on a large scale with grinders and
    wielders
    I can see how dangerous that can get

    surprised they didn't just see the discharged battery mod and implement like corner lights.
    there is a wonderous community of mods sitting there delaying.
    I'm not just saying add in crazy star wars weapons and.......heresy....shields.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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