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How can base defense be boosted to make anti-griefing defense practical?

Discussion in 'General' started by BrickedKeyboard, Jul 12, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. BrickedKeyboard Apprentice Engineer

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    372
    Right now, on any "unrestricted PVP" server, there's a major problem. Griefing is trivially easy. The turrets have finally been made able to stop individual suited players sneaking up, although I've heard conflicting accounts as to whether they will stop an astronaut moving at under 3 m/s.

    So it's a step in the right direction.

    However, yesterday, a player showed up at our turret protected space station and proceeded to blast it to pieces. All the gatling guns and rocket turrets were set to fire at maximum range. However, the player had a cockpit bolted to a few thrusters and 2 rocket pods. He set the rocket pods to single fire and was able to just snipe all our turrets.

    You can't protect the turrets with armor and have them still work, and they die to 1 rocket hit. They miss or won't even fire at small ships at long range.

    Worse, it is now possible to move bases. This is a huge step forwards for griefing.

    See, all you need to do to destroy something utterly is to send it towards the edge of the map at 104 m/s. On a multiplayer server, the glitchiness due to floating point errors (and no relative reference frames) means it's gone for good. It's impossible to get back onboard and activate the inertial dampeners as the moving object will "teleport" around and kill you if you get close.

    So right now, you can just wipe a multiplayer server clean with ease. The reason is that turrets don't protect from anything, and hiding is pointless because someone can just save the game and find the location of anything via a save file viewer. Once you know something's location relative to yourself, there's a few tricks that let you determine which way is X, Y, Z and move right to it.
     
  2. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    The ship glitchines is not do to floating point errors nor does it have anything to do with relative reference frames. It's due to the net code and synch issues.

    I won't speak to the rest of the post because I haven't done any public PVP.
     
  3. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    280
    Turrets are just one part of a defense grid, and should never ever be your only defense.

    Don't know if people have been doing any experiments with armor, but it gets a stacking bonus the thicker you make it.

    5+ layers of Heavy Armor will take more ammo then any small ship can ever hold, to punch though and make even a small hole. Large ship missile launchers work too, but then you have the issue of even more ammo consumption.

    Also having that many layers of armor makes it nigh ram proof, short of another ship coming in with the same amount of layers. That and most ramming grief faggots use the yellow little ship, and even 2 layers of heavy armor can protect against that. Even if a griefer manages to build a ship to ram, usually he can be found out before he can finish it, and small ships do nothing to large ship/station heavy armor. If he does manage to complete a ram ship, 5 or more layers of heavy armor will deturr him from trying to repeatedly ram your station, that is, if he even bothered/managed to take out all of your stations defenses and defense satellites.


    I have been playing the game for about a month now myself, and have read/heard about these issues. As such I have tested and designed ways to defend against these kinds of attacks that are doable in survival game modes. Easiest one that can be tossed up in a short amount of time are Defense Satellites. Small "round" balls with 5 or 6 turrets surrounding a small cargo container and a reactor (or 2 for backup) using conveyors (not tubes as they have less HP then the conveyer itself). Making them in either Missile or Gatt based, but never mix the two and never have them closer then 800m from each other, since Gatts like to shoot your own missile turrets missiles. Note: 5 turrets works well if you want to have a connector facing the one side closest to your station, so you can easily fill/refill the sat. These need to be places at least 800m from your stations own turrets. Placing multiple layers of these 800m spaced ones can prove to be impossible to grief or even ram though. Coupled with a 5+ heavy armored station and you have yourself a very powerful defense that can only be defeated by a combined attack from multiple cruiser class large ships.
     
  4. dzikakulka Trainee Engineer

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    60
    Actually I've read somewhere that due to damage propagation model in game it is more efficient to have layers of armor-nothing-armor-nothing-... And I've seen few times that ship was all ok working nice but when I added armor cover (for good look mostly) thrusters destroyed armor AND stuff directly next to it, even though it was 100% ouf of it's area of effect before placing armor.

    Anoyone has some confirmed info?
     
  5. hlpdrewdawg Apprentice Engineer

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    293
    Don't play on an unrestricted pvp server maybe?
     
  6. Kielm Junior Engineer

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    507
    If you cover a refinery in several layers of armor and ram something large into the top, the refinery will most likely be destroyed leaving the bottom layers of armor relatively intact. From what I've seen, blocks can deform up to 100% of their size. Try shooting a heavy armor block for a long time with a gatling gun, sometimes you can get it to appear to move almost a full block back.

    This effect can stack through blocks. One deforms, pushing the next, pushing the next, etc. [edit: Most] non-armor blocks do not deform the same way, they just take damage and get destroyed. So yes, have a buffer zone, or just avoid mounting internal equipment directly onto surface armor.
     
  7. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    280


    Yes there is something strange with the code that any explostion/collistion with armor, that the "shockwave" still travles though to the inside. So best thing is to keep a 1+ block space from anything important from where actual damage will be occuring. Granted, thusters will be unavoidable to do that with, unless you build a large ship and run all the trusters on the inside of the ship. Thuster damage trvles 7 blocks from the tip of the thruster, this applies to both small and large ship small thrusters, Small ship large thrusters also travel 7 but large ship large thrusters travels 14 blocks. So you can build internal thrusters and never have them exposed to damage, thus leaving the entirety of your ships outer hull for armor and turrets (if applicable).
     
  8. Kayatami Apprentice Engineer

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    340
    Explosives at its current state can bypass 2 layers (or more) of heavy armour & destroy your interior. 5 layers has little effect, and the cost to layer anything 5 layers is staggering & absolutely not worth it.

    They just haven't gotten around to balancing/replacing the area of effect from the explosives that cause them to actually hardly dent the first layer and then decimate the interior structure instead ... which obviously makes no sense.

    If you need a current method of armouring, spaced armour is your answer. 1 outer armour 1 space apart from the 2nd one. This will protect you far better, and forces the explosives to actually hit the 1st layer. This is actually more effective in general as it doesn't compromise the 2nd layer if the 1st is hit.

    Example:
    H = Hull (Armour)
    S = empty space

    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
    H S H
     
  9. Typo91 Trainee Engineer

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    94
    Flak Turrets - A good idea, might work, need new ammo, new turrets.
    Guided missiles - I like this idea best, because we already have missiles and turrets, also I can see how this would work, missiles would be a little slower, but also making the gat turrets able to shoot them down. and a small ship like a fighter would have next to no chance against them. I would also make the range of guided missiles something like 1500m.
    Anti missile turrets that work - Sure but can't they just use a gat turret and do the same thing at 850m?
    No turrets, magical protected force fields that stop all attacks - Not a bad idea, a shield that protects your base when the owner is offline from all things. Could cost a lot of power, be the reason you need a large reactor.
     
  10. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    280
    The problem with doing a space, is the first layer will be very very weak, and holes will be punched though in a few missile shots, heavy armor or not. Plus it isn't very Ram Proof.


    However an idea is to mix together the two ideas. Put in multiple layers of armor, like 3-4 then a space, then 2 more layers and finally your base. This gives that 1 gap space for the invisible damage to hit and go away.
     
  11. Kayatami Apprentice Engineer

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    340
    Excluding the front part of the ship, 3-4 thick layers of heavy armour is just not practical. o.o

    At least not in survival. hehe
     
  12. SirLANsalot Apprentice Engineer

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    280
    Ship wise, 2 layers is about all your going to get before she gets too bulky and you just start adding on more mass without much more protection.

    However I am talking about STATIONS, things that do not move and need as much protection as you can put on, so pile it on!


    As for Survival.....you have no idea how easy it is to get tons and tons of steel plates for even the most massive of stations you can dream of. In a PvP server, things do change, but you still can get some heavy plates on, once you get a few layers placed and on things get a little bit easier but the main issue is getting ahold of a roid in which to build a base from.
    Once Server linking comes, then you can get some real good world vs world fights with massive ships and heavily defended stations. The kind of fights that EvE only wished it could do, in the depth it never had.
     
  13. Raz0rking Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    118
    Build a lot of antennas as a *net* (deactivated of course). Like that you may be able to catch a few rockets, and change the course of larger objects (i.e. fighters)
     
  14. THE_VB Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    511
    A good solution will be the rotary shield - just place a rotor and a layer or two of blocks large enough to cover your base from one side. Start the roror at maximum speed.
    This gives you a nice shield against some basic attacks from one side. Experiment with shields' forms and their contents to make them more effective, like adding a pair layers of armor on the shield part or mounting some turrets to it.
    Good idea BTW - add some turrets to it and they will not be an easy target.
     
  15. TechyBen Junior Engineer

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    542
    That also words for real life. Though you can do so in much smaller spaces as you don't need 1m deep cubes for building. :p
     
  16. Leadfootslim Senior Engineer

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    1,300
    Station-jacking is tremendously harder when you don't build thrusters into it... but then, that also makes it harder to stop when you've pushed it off with another ship. Making convert-to-ship a Creative-only option would be acceptable, I think.

    There are engineering solutions to some of these problems, such as building bases inside an asteroid, placing smaller defense satellites outward from your base to give you a heads-up, etc... but improving turret targeting is never a bad idea.
     
  17. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    545
    Can you still smack a cockpit on anywhere and gain control of the entire station? If an existing cockpit would prevent anyone else from gaining control via a cockpit with a different owner, Stations could actually be protected somewhat efficiently. Just don't build and outside turrets at all and concentrate on armor and interior defense.

    Turrets at max range are horribly inefficient anyways. What you want to do is force the enemy to get close (e.g. by building inside a narrow asteroid, or luring them into a seemingly defenseless station) and then open fire.
     
  18. Kielm Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    No. Not if factions are being used.

    If you leave all your stuff set to 'no owner' then yes. But that would be a tremendously silly thing to do on a multiplayer server.

    Factions have made it a lot easier to protect your stuff. Turrets will target any non-faction entity (even going < 3m/s) so if you have full turret coverage as defenses then hacking / stealing is pretty difficult without doing a bit of destroying first.
     
  19. fused Trainee Engineer

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    92
    If someone in your faction places an interior turret lets say inside an asteroid on your station and sets the controls to target moving objects and to share with my faction ... will this cause hem to still fire on anyone in your faction ... including yourself. I ask because i have had my drill shot at countless times by my own turret ... once over a certain speed.

    Seems like this is not how the system is intended to operate ...
     
  20. ExavierMacbeth Trainee Engineer

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    64
    I am curious about something on the OP's station scenario... Could you make an extra gun with shorter range (for accuracy reasons) near the long range one and turn on the option to shoot down incoming missiles?

    Wouldn't that effectively protect your turrets from being sniped by this tactic?

    Wouldn't do much against Gatlings but at that point your not really facing a greifer but rather someone determined to attack/destroy/pirate your complex.
     
  21. Kielm Junior Engineer

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    507
    If you leave target moving objects set to on, the turret will target any moving object with a computer component, regardless of faction or owner, including your own stuff.

    The target moving object option is a little strange at the moment, I'd suggest just leaving it off, as the turret will obey targeting rules for factions regardless of speed (it will shoot stationary and moving objects that are not of the faction or player it belongs to).
     
  22. fused Trainee Engineer

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    92
    Very misleading that is for sure. If set to target missiles is that fired missiles or any ship carrying missiles?

    Good to know. Thanks Kielm
     
  23. KorbenDallas Trainee Engineer

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    35
    My impression is that shoot missiles setting is supposed to shoot incoming missiles. In my testing gatlings do not fire on missiles atm. Which sucks for MP since you can just bombard a base from a distance till it's defences are down.
     
  24. Wombats Junior Engineer

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    791
    If 'griefing' were preventable by automatic turrets a whole class of ships and weapons would be worthless because no one would ever be able to assault a position with them. The point is that the automated defense systems are a good, but not perfect tool to use. Just like anything else. If you really want to defend your base you're going to need to be a little more creative; or get out there yourself in a little fighter and defend it.
     
  25. KorbenDallas Trainee Engineer

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    35
    Very true if you're online. But most happens when offline.
     
  26. Kayatami Apprentice Engineer

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    340
    I've never seen a turret take out 1 incoming missile unless its flying "directly" at it, and even then its a shot in the dark. The missiles are simply to fast for the turrets to react and accurately shoot down (expecially if the ship that is being attacked is moving).

    If it's 1 missile vs a group of turrets, your chances may go up that they will take out the missile, but obviously someone would fire a volley of 4-10 at you ... the turrets will most likely only hit 1 sadly.

    I agree creative defenses are needed, but the turrets should at least be somewhat competent or giving much larger range so they have more time. lol
     
  27. Lancar Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    It has been suggested many many times...

    Laser turrets.

    Weak against most everything, but an extremely accurate hitscan weapon. It would excel at taking out single missiles at the short-medium ranges, making them very effective vs small ship missile launchers. You'll need to build quite a lot of them to handle the rapid-fire largeship launchers, though.
     
  28. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    I find the best defence is in not being found.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. marek_rosa Developer Staff

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    115
    Nice usage of camo heavy armor :)
     
  30. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    4,069
    Not so good when you forget where you parked it.
     
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