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I don't like that we can climb every mountains

Discussion in 'General' started by Androox, Mar 21, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Androox Trainee Engineer

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    I don't know if it will stay like this but it's not nice.

    We should not be able to climb certain degrees
     
  2. waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    1. Current mountains are 1/100 the size they should be
    2. If we are not allowed to climb certain angles, it will make navigation in steep terrain VERY annoying. This is because if its ALMOST there, youll need to walk back and forth to find some stupid polygon that happens to have a bit nicer slope. Not fun at all when you end up doing it all the time because slopes are everywhere and going for a steeper slope is usually going to get you faster to your destination.

    Slope should slow down walkspeed.

    Walkspeed would become zero when the slope is unnaturally high.
     
  3. Androox Trainee Engineer

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    1-I'm not talking about the height of mountains.
    2-No it's not nice and its annoying when you try to do a castle on top of a mountain and the ennemy can climb IMPOSSIBLE degree.

    Look at this.. breaking immertion

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2015
  4. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    1,942
    What is so crazy about that I climb 80 degree angles on mountains every day. (Sarcasm mode: Off) I do think you shouldn't be able to climb that but don't make it too over done.
     
  5. Grendel Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah with my castle built into the side of a mountain My defense would be better served if we weren't all as agile climbers as billy goats
     
  6. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    I would like this too. Building a castle on a mountain should add more defensive power than building on a small hill, but should also be more difficult to build. As is it affects nothing except for effective firing range. It doesn't actually affect how much one has to protect. Realistically, you would only have to defend a handful of passes. Not the entire mountain.
     
  7. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    +1 for slope slowing speed. Brilliant Wintersend.
     
  8. Bullethead Apprentice Engineer

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    Actually, I agree with the OP. At present, steep slopes are no obstacle to the attacker, which makes things ridiculously difficult for the defender. Merely slowing, but not preventing, the climbing of certain slopes is insufficient.

    Consider the default "normal" map. The central mountain is actually a spur with peaks of ever-increasing height along its length to the edge of the map. Thus, any castle built on a lower peak is overlooked by the next higher peak, and so on all along the spur. In real life, this wouldn't be a problem because the steepness of the spur's flanks increases as well, so no enemy could reach the higher peaks. And besides, the size of the peaks decreases as well, providing insufficient room to build anything worthwhile on for the defender anyway, at least without extensive terrain modification. Furthermore, castles way up on the highest peaks are out of range of valley floor, so the castle would fail in its main purpose of controlling movement through the valley below.

    So in real life, and also in what appears to be the obvious intent of this map, you put your caslte on the low, wide peak at the end of the spur. There, it can cover the valley floor where the road would be, there's enough room to build a worthwhile castle without having do extensive terrain sculpting, and the task of getting building materials and provisions up to the castle is much easier. Sure, there's higher ground up the spur from the castle, but it wouldn't matter because no enemy could use them.

    However, in ME, nothing stops the enemy from getting to the highest peak. Then archers and even artillery can fire down into the castle. To prevent this, the defender is forced to build on all the high peaks simply to prevent attackers from using these positions. The result is totally ridiculous. You have the main castle on the lower end of the spur where there's actually room for it, but then it has to have this long, long wall extending from it all along the crest of the spur with towers on every peak.

    So yes, the ability to climb every mountain has significant undesirable impacts on gameplay. It must be eliminated.
     
  9. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    2,095
    Why do people keep thinking I said it should decrease speed. I never said that. I said you should be forced to defend a fairly small area, not a massive one with incredibly long walls.
     
  10. waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    My point was that you should be able to climb any slope, but your speed should be reduced greatly as the slope gets steeper. First its walking, but eventually youll be spending 30 seconds to figure out what you can grab next to move 10 cm higher.

    Maybe a chance to slip and fall to your death above a certain steepness.

    Enemy should not be stopped by a steep mountain. However, steep mountain should stop enemy from bringing a ton of stuff with him (weapons, food...) because theyll add weight, reducing speed and increasing probability of falling.
    Climbing speed should be more affected by weight you are carrying than walking speed is.

    So on even ground you can carry whatever and still be almost as fast. But when the terrain gets uneven, weight becomes a more relevant factor.

    So when an enemy does climb to your mountain forts weak side, theyll have lost 50% of their force and theyll be carrying very little. Maybe just food and a sharp stick. I think its ok (theyll have to get down too!).
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  11. PTBRULES Trainee Engineer

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    Winterseed has the best solution I believe. Flat Terrain to 30 degrees should change slightly, but not dramatically, once above 45 degrees their should be a noticeable difference. Past 60 degrees should have a chance of slipping and very slow speed. 75+ Degrees should but almost impassable without equipment. Weight generally makes you slower and increases you chance of a fall.
     
  12. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    OOPS, I meant brilliant WATERLIMON!! Sorry mates.
     
  13. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    Thank you. I was very confused as to why people were saying I said that when Waterlimon said that.
     
  14. Bullethead Apprentice Engineer

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    I still disagree. This game is about engineering and one of the things engineers do is build roads. Under the above system, even if the slope is so steep that all you can carry is a pickaxe, that's still enough to make the mountain no barrier at all. Carve a road that's not so steep and then you can bring up whatever you want. The result is that unless the defender occupies all the highest ground on the map, he'll be a constant risk of suffering a Dien Bien Phu-type of defeat.

    Yes, building such a road and the artillery positions at the end will take time, but it won't take too long due to other gameplay concerns. It will use the digging mechanic, and players have to be able to dig mines, moats, and oubliettes in a reasonable amount of playtime or they'll get bored and stop playing the game. In fact, carving a road up the side of a mountain would take considerably less time than digging a mine due to less volume of material to remove and no need to shore up the ceiling.

    So, from just a gameplay perspective, I believe that slopes above a certain degree of steepness should be completely impassable to players, and also incapable of being modified by roads and such.

    From a realism POV, this isn't as bad as you might think. While modern climbers can scale just about anything on Earth, they largely rely on equipment not developed until the 1800s and later. Mountaineering wasn't really a thing until well after the Middle Ages. Medieval roads weren't anything to brag about, either.

    European moutains are full of castles and later forts overlooked by higher peaks. This is because the technology of the time didn't allow this higher ground to be used effectively by an attacker. ME's gameplay mechanics, however, will change this. Also, ME maps are quite small, so these higher peaks are often within artillery range of the lower peaks. This wasn't usually the case in real life, unless the higher peak was inaccessible with the technology of the time.
     
  15. waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    If the enemy builds a long windy road to the top of a high mountain, I dont see an issue with that. Doing that will take a long time and take a ton of effort. Then theyll still have to haul a ton of supplies up that long windy road and assemble a catapult or something at the top (and keep hauling food and stuff up there).

    At that point conquering the mountain is more effort than just going straight for the castle.


    What should be enough:
    • Make map size and world generation algorithm such that there are few situations where this issue exists (mountains everywhere). Im sure well get much bigger maps so maps being small shouldnt be an issue.
    • Make mountains high enough that building a long windy road or a really tall ladder/stair will take massive effort
    • Make mountaintops be bad for survival (fast winds pushing stuff around, cold, no resources)
    • Add food requirement so camping on a mountaintop doesnt work well if youre not really into it
    • (add a dragons nest on all the highest peaks)

    I think the main issue for you is that there supposedly wont be high locations to build a castle on that wouldnt be overwatched by an even higher mountain.
    I wouldnt worry about that, since even on the current maps you can make custom ones designed to not have that issue, and once we get bigger maps the generation algorithm can be made to provide plenty of safe locations that really do dominate the surrounding terrain.
     
  16. Bullethead Apprentice Engineer

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    Present and foreseeable game mechanics predict that it will always be easier/cheaper/faster for an attacker to build a road and a siege battery on a higher location than the defender can build and maintain defenses there or even lower. I've already seen similar situations develop in other games where players can create buildings and modify the map terrain. A system made to make building creation relatively easy makes road construction even easier. And it's pretty much that way in real life, too. As long as available technology makes construction of such a road possible, it's way less work than constructing and maintaining a building of any size.

    There are 2 solutions to this problem. One is to junk the existing maps and replace them with ones providing better habitats for castles and people in general. The other is to prevent player movement and activity on slopes greater than a certain amount. Personally, I think a combination of both is necessary. If every map was generall the same, with a lone rock in the middle of wide plains, it would get boring quickly and also look quite artificial. Besides, if there's ever a random map generator, it will likely not provide such castle-friendly settings most of the time. In which case, the game mechanics will work in favor of he who builds a road over he who builds a castle.

    Now please explain how I can make my own maps already. I've been trying with World Machine but can't get anything to work.
     
  17. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    2,095
    How about they make peaks a bit more isolated, you slow as you get to higher slopes and near mountain peaks you need specialized gear for climbing and once you hit a certain point you can move yourself and the gear only and are very slow. No weapons even. So if you try to climb above a mountain fortress built at a reasonably high height. You have to do it basically naked. Not even enough to build a road or a piece of siege equipment no matter how many trips you take.
     
  18. wmark Apprentice Engineer

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    Maybe snow on mountains? Where your screen gets a white icey glow to it, and after too long it will kill you.
     
  19. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    personally I'd like to see the engineer get into a climbing animation when reaching a certain steepness.
     
  20. Jugbot Apprentice Engineer

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    Yes, more animations in genereal for a load of things would help make the character look more real and less no-clip god mode.
     
  21. Bullethead Apprentice Engineer

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    Beyond a certain steepness, hills should be unclimbable without building a road, ramp, or whatever. Castles built on the edges of cliffs shouldn't have to worry about attack from that direction, and building the road is engineering which is what we're supposed to be doing.
     
  22. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    you can still climb that cliff. especially if you use climbing gear.
    suggestion: add climbing gear to ME.
     
  23. Bullethead Apprentice Engineer

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    Suggestion: NOT have any modern climbing gear. Look at the history of mountaineering. It didn't start becoming a thing until the last couple centuries, and anything approaching modern gear didn't exist until the 1800s. Apparently medieval folks had better things to do with their time, had more common sense than modern folks, or had some medieval mindset that disinclined them to stray too far from their usual place. I'm sure there have always been a few folks since the dawn of time who have wanted to scale sheer cliffs and such, but it's not something that medieval people did, at least not in the context of sieges and stuff.
     
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  24. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    I did not specify modern. I meant something like grappling hooks, anchors and a lot of rope. the stuff one might want to use when climbing a wall. none of it is modern technology. it can be uite usefull to attack someone where they expect it the least.
     
  25. Jugbot Apprentice Engineer

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    I still think that is too much. I bet that people back then didn't even have THIS. So I suggest a climbing animation for steep inclines, and the inability to climb at steep inclines.
     
  26. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    Grappling hooks are really old, like 100 BC old. It would come as more of a shock if we didn't have access to grappling hooks.
     
  27. Jugbot Apprentice Engineer

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    Well at LEAST it ain't gonna' happen soon.
     
  28. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    well... that's a given. after all the devs have to improve the rope first. that doesn't mean it can't be suggested or we can't speculate about it...
     
  29. Jugbot Apprentice Engineer

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    Alright ;)
     
  30. Ubiqanon Trainee Engineer

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    Every time I see this post title, I start thinkging about singing nuns and the swiss alps.... and Julie Andrews... and then Lady Gaga....

    To the OP, you my good sir need to watch the Sound of Music... and you will see what you did there.
     
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