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In-game currency will be a thing?

Discussion in 'General' started by Ronin1973, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,669
    So, it seems that in-game currency will be an official thing. My concern is that the in-game currency might get tied to real world purchases like in some play-to-win titles. Are we going down this road?
     
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    No.
     
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  3. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    Unlikely. We have a singel Player mode...
     
  4. dispair Apprentice Engineer

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    I watched the YouTube of some of the test. The missions looked simple enough, and in game money only got you ships that you could just build so I would never buy in game money. I wish companies would just police themselves. If keen needs more money they will just pop out some new skins.
     
  5. CyberBlaster Trainee Engineer

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    The credits are only saved per save file and you can just go into the admin menu and set your credits to what ever you want.....
    So Keen wouldn't do anything like that with credits in the current form anyway.

    On someone else's server? Maybe? Charge people money to "help pay for the server" and then the admins gives you in game credits for your "donation," I guess? Shady as that is.
     
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  6. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Just the answer I was looking for. TY.
     
  7. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    If I cant buy a dab emote for 600 spacebucks I'm uninstalling this game.
     
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  8. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    People have been begging for "something to do" in the game. Now they are getting it, the reward is just the credits. I don't think there will be a pay real money for credits system.

    If it gets to that point, I would have to drop the game.
     
  9. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Are these New Republic credits?
     
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  10. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    I missed the "official" reveal stream but I caught @Xocliw 's "after stream" and I was pretty salty there, I will admit. I have advised against this sort of thing pretty much every time it gets mentioned. In a game where a key feature is realism, where Keen is trying it's darndest to have us believe we are Space Engineers living and working in space, working around the limitations of Havok and VRage, Sure, we don't get liquid water, orbital dynamics, rotating planets, blah blah blah, but we do get the best realism the game can produce.

    However, an economy has nothing to do with Havok or VRage. It has nothing to do with the quality of your hardware or your internet connection. An economic system has to be built and maintained just like any ship, vehicle or station you make in SE. An economy needs to be engineered, but in this engineering game we are not encouraged to do that. Yes, I know that you can just turn it off, but who would? It's just easier to use it rather than cook up something.

    The fundamental flaw here is that apparently nothing in the game had any value until Keen gave us Space Credits. Now, like magic, there are things to do because we can have money. That's how the world works, right? The thing that gives things value is money. We know what something is worth because it gets assigned a dollar value (or rupees or pesetas or euros, whatever). Uranium had no value until the game assigned a space credit value to it. Now we can trade it. Couldn't do that before. We can have "contracts" now because we have space credits. Couldn't do that before. We now have a "reason" to mine ore because we can get space credits for it. We now have space credits to buy the stuff we could have just made with just basic effort. The game even puts space credits in your pocket right off the bat. Doesn't do that with ore, but money? Sure. Why not?

    *sigh*

    I'm not going to go into how Keen just put shields in the game (cause I'll just explode). I have so many hours in this game that I can no longer relate to the new player experience. I believe the game will be all about the pursuit of space credits. I fear that new players will believe they have "won" when they have accumulated the most cash. I believe people will be disappointed by what other people will actually pay for the ships they want to sell. Mining/refining/building will take a back seat to the accumulation of wealth.

    I'm not saying it won't work. I'm saying it won't work well.

    If I had any say at all, I would eliminate the space credits and the shields, and then let the economy develop on it's own. Players could use the contract system to negotiate trades. If someone has something you want and you have something they want, a deal can be made and no space credits required. I need to understand the "store" before can decide if it's useful.

    Anyway, the die have been cast. We'll just have to see where this takes the game.
     
  11. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    Heh...

    You know, @Stardriver907, if you have issues with something I usually listen because I like your stance on most things. So, until now I was just very, very content with the update in general. And you got me thinking! Why did you do that!

    But anyhow, I realised, after the just aforementioned thinking, that I don't really believe that the economy system will be changing that much gameplay.
    ##Singleplayer.. I really don't think that this update is so bad. Everyone who really believes in their own builds will use the system to overcome the tedious "finding-the-right-asteroids" play IF they find a trader first. But buying another ship? They are never good enough and will be heavily retrofitted, anyway. If someone wants that it just adds another layer of possibilites, it does not take away.

    ##Multiplayer.. granted, especially the shield bubbles are a royal pain in the void-reactor. For anything else, there is PCU - and there is the thing: I will not give away PCU for some fancy, half-assed design that is not my own that I bought and then have to re-design completely if I do not want to look and work like everyone else. The trading system is an interesting role-addition and I can see myself going to other players and buy their hydro and their cobalt if I don't have it - but only after confirming that the way to their nice and fancy trading base is not littered with traps. I think it will be too tedious to be a real game-changer.

    ##My Way.. why I was content with the update until now was all the possibilities it gives me for my worlds. I can now add new faction-based quests, rewards and versatility in general to them. This makes it damn tasty to try all those new functions out ( if they don't crash on me - got 5 crashes in under one hour).
     
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  12. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    And the economic system will be optional, you do not have to enable it.
    Granted if you play on an established server that uses it I guess you are stuck if you don't like the system.
    For me, it will not make that much of a difference since I am 95% of the time playing solo.

    But I may turn it on just to help my imaginary mining company really be a company and make real "deliveries". :)
     
  13. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    I don't see a problem with the economy model be at all. Granted I have very little time "elbowing around with it", but have set things up to continue exploring it once open testing ends

    What I like most about the new economy model is not so much the $$$ thing, its the fact of actual content in a formerly empty and creepily abandoned solar system.

    Datapads with station gps coords, hauling missions literally driving you to other unknown stations, etc is what gives me the smiles the most.

    Then there is the part that some may not have explored much in their beta test time: player made stores. Set our own prices, our own contacts.

    I suspect that space credits in pvp servers will be worthless in the meta term- as the world is still a market of abundance, but one thing not abundant is grief free zones, and the time invested to attain that- so player to player real transactions will be done with zone chips
     
  14. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    I can deal with the introduction of currency now that they've added "reputation" stats with different factions. The fact that you can build relationships (good and bad) with NPCs and that will affect their disposition towards you adds some lacking depth to gameplay. We've now introduced long lasting consequences in the game. I'm not terribly excited to BUY a ship in-game. I'm not the questing type. But having new functionality that can be modded... that's exciting. $0.02.
     
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  15. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    Yes Long lasting reputations is another fringe addition. When I "found" another players stuff.. you know.. just abandoned...

    Grinding it nailed my rep with their faction, and increased my rep with SPRT.

    So every second of grinding something clearly not yours now = theft/crime.

    I didnt have time to test/see if, but the Bounty missions, for players that station is really mad at... i wonder if those bounty missions give "last known location" gps?!?
     
  16. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Well, just to be clear, I'm right and you guys are wrong.






    Seriously, as the hours go by my salt content decreases. I would like to run my own server before too long so I pay attention to stuff like this (new vanilla features) because I don't want to present a drastically different experience, especially for new players. I suspect that this feature will be hyped the same way planets were, so players will be expecting the feature the same way they expect planets. As with planets, though, there is a can of worms that perhaps should have been opened later. Like planets, this was probably inevitable. The problem, as I see it, is that the zeal to give players "what they want" takes time and effort away from determining what will happen if they get it. My beef with the, in my opinion, early introduction of planets virtually halted player experimentation on designing and building spacecraft. Go look at the Workshop. There is an eerie similarity to ship designs that suggests, no, shouts a basic terrestrial influence. The majority of spacecraft I see both in the Workshop and built on people's streams are designed to operate on planets. It has been a very long time since I have seen a new space station on the Workshop, perhaps because the builders can't figure out a way to land one on a planet. This is because in every sci-fi game ever any spacecraft you can get your hands on can operate in atmosphere and gravity. I'll never forget the day Capt. Janeway gave the order to land Voyager, or that one recent Star Trek movie where they were hiding Enterprise under water. These kinds of influences make it hard for a game that is supposed to be taking place in 2077 to exist. Imagine an Apollo moon rocket that lands back on the pad at KSC. We didn't do it that way for a number of reasons. In the 50's we imagined a moon rocket would be all one piece and in fact it would return to Earth and land. The moon rockets we ended up making were quite different. Like nothing we imagined. Which is why they actually worked. The Lunar Excursion Module, the only actual spacecraft in the entire system, was not all sleek and stylish, and it didn't return to Earth's surface. Once in space, LEMs were in their element, and planets were deadly for them. Space Engineers was influenced by what came out of NASA. Keen clearly wanted stuff in their game to have that NASA vibe. Players, however, want Star Wars/Star Trek. We'll never know what players would have made if they only had a gravity-free vacuum to work with.

    This trading system (and the guy that was responsible for implementing this calls it a trading system and not an "economy" so he knows the difference) has all the hallmarks of every other trading system in most other video games. That apparently means that the infrastructure needs to be invulnerable, and that means players get shields. All the economy mods lack this feature so I guess that is what sets Keen's system from the mods. I fear this may also be very destabilizing because the number of people that want a trading system are dwarfed by the number of players that want shields. I believe the trading system is being supported in order to get the shields. Keen's staff rightly surmised that every ship in the game would become a "trading post" unless they hard-coded them to only work if they are attached to a voxel or station. For me this means that I won't be able to use Keen's trading system from my flagship, which is the headquarters of my merchant fleet, or from my main cargo ships which I envisioned that the majority of trade transactions would take place, unless I forego the shields. I'm still pretty fuzzy on how it all actually works. For instance, my plan to keep crew members was to offer them a percentage of the ore mined. Pirate-style. Now I believe they will want space credits, only because the expectation is that if you work for someone you get paid in cash. That kind of ruins the frontier mentality I thought the game was going for. I mean, what kind of space pirates deal in cash?

    It's not the trading system that has me worried. It's this notion that nothing has value and there can be no trade, and therefore no "economy", unless there is currency. Remember, economic systems of all types existed long before any currency existed. Currency is, in fact, a construct devised by governments in order to control and manipulate trade. The game has no government. The economic system works more like when your mom gave you lunch money every morning. By the time you found out where the money came from, you also found out no one was going to just give it to you any more. So you learned to work for cash, and now it's assumed that is the way of things. It's an irrational system where you have the means to manufacture anything you would use currency to buy. From current observations, the effort to get and use currency seems to be greater than the traditional mine/refine/build system. It still looks to me like the trading system would work better if the currency and the shields were removed. Only then would we see an actual economy emerge.

    Not hating on the trading system. Just the currency ;)
     
  17. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    850
    Darn my "get to the point of the post" filter...

    Without it I may have actually read all of that. But then The Filters slogan IS "No Regerts"
     
  18. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    If there was a Kappa, I would have used it.
     
  19. Spets Master Engineer

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    Dab is already here (as a mod) ... unfortunately(?)
    [​IMG]
     
  20. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Items are worth what folks are willing to pay for them or trade for them. The potential for trading/bartering systems have always existed in games like SE, Ark Survival Evolved, Minecraft, and other survival'exploration centric games. Then of course we also have games like WoW, SWTOR, EVE Online, and of course Star Trek Online as just a few examples of games with fully developed player driven economies. Even if formal trading systems don't exist the potential for trading was already there. In Ark Survival if I wanted to trade some Cementing Paste for a little bit of Obsidian it's really simple. I can load the Cementing Paste into a neutral chest for the guy I'm trading with, and he can do the same with his Obsidian. He pulls out his Paste, I pull out my Obsidian, boom trade done. The very same principle applies in SE. Guy A wants to trade Guy B for some of Guy B's Uranium. Guy A offers him some ores and a few components for the Uranium and Guy B accepts. Both of them meet near a set of neutral cargo bays. Guy A pulls the Uranium from one of the neutral containers, Guy B does the same with the ores and components, and viola trade done. If worst comes to worst they always had the option of simply throwing it on the ground and picking it up. Just because a more formalized trading system doesn't exist in game does not preclude the possibility of trading being done. It will simply get done in a less formalized fashion. The various components and bits such as Uranium have always had value as they can be used to construct various items, and turned against enemy factions etc, the only thing that changed is your perceived value of those items based on an arbitrary monetary value assigned to it. Subjectivity is a large factor in determining value that is often underestimated or overlooked. This is getting into a can of worms involving economic theory that I'll save the meat and potatoes of for another time.

    I was not expecting something like reputations and/or trading systems to become a thing but it definitely has potential and gives motivation to explore a bit more and interact with NPCs and other factions. Now if I need some iron I can either choose to fight it out with the neighboring faction or buy it from the trading station that's in the opposite direction. The contracts also give me another reason to venture out into the world aside from just purely resources. So far from what I've seen it's a start at making the world feel a bit more lively, which imo was desperately needed. I'm hoping this leads to other NPCs we can interact with down the road as well. Even if it's just grinding space credits it will give folks another something to do. It's not perfect from what I was seeing but it's a start at least. Could lead to some interesting gameplay situations down the road.

    Back in 60s everyone thought we would have flying cars by now or be in the world of the Jetsons. For that matter when the Back to the Future films came out everyone thought we would have Hover Boards and similar devices by now as well. For that matter I wish we had those things now myself because reasons. Fast forward to the times we're in now and there's no flying cars yet or true sci-fi type hoverboards. The thing that scares the crap out of me is that by our technology today, we can build computers that can out-compute Data from Star Trek TNG and make him look like antiquated technology. Point being, design stage items and our visions of the future don't always match the realized versions of those things. Technology and our perceptions of the future can and often do change over time.

    With that said in regards to planets, the folks that wanted to stay in space and design space only objects still have that option even today and have never lost that option. Just because a bunch of folks choose to follow a current trend doesn't mean you are obligated to do it right along with them. Alot of folks I know love to play the Battlefield series still. Personally I can't stand them anymore so I don't play them. I have several craft that are designed to operate exclusively in space in addition to craft designed purely for planetary operations, and my regular craft that can operate in either. The option to create craft that operate purely in space is still there and never went anywhere. Purely space driven vehicles and/or stations may have become less common but still exist.

    As explained above the potential for a trading system existed well before this was a thing. Only now from the appearance of things there will be an actual formalized system for trading. Going back to the dawn of gaming in general there's always been trolls and cheaters who always look for ways to grief people and cheese mechanics to give them unfair advantages. Shouldn't be a surprise to folks at this point that Keen needed to secure the kiosks/infrastructure in some form or fashion against trolls. In regards to the safe zones aka shields, there's always going to be folks that would try to use that to their advantage on a pvp type server and probably even a few pve servers as well. With that said it doesn't mean this feature shouldn't be attempted as it can always be adjusted or changed going down the road. Pirates are going to go for whatever gets them the most loot or they perceive gives them the most loot, if that's cash it will be cash, if that's the ore based percentages like you said, they'll want the ores.

    In regards to the shields, I support the addition of shields with or without the this trading system being in place. Folks that want to use this new trading system can use it, and folks that don't want to can disable it on their servers/worlds. The same can be true of shields or even a hunger system. Those that want to use the shields or hunger system would be able to do it, those that don't won't have to. I personally despise most hunger systems in games but just because I personally don't like it doesn't mean a vanilla OPTION for it can't be added. The same is true for those who don't like shields, don't use them if they were to ever become a thing.


    At the end of the day I honestly think folks are way over analyzing this economy/trading system feature's impact. I don't forsee everyone suddenly dealing exclusively in the new space credits. I do however see folks leaving it on purely as something to do in the world so it doesn't feel so barren.
     
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  21. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    850
    I tinkered around a bit during the beta test, trying a "never mine aything- just contract" start- it worked.

    I simply read the databad that came in my spawnship, and beelined to the nearest station. Bought station datapads of other station gps (not many nearby ones, darnit). Started doing Search contracts flying in my suit, $$$. Sold unknown signal materials back- $$$. found a hauling contract to only 90km away (so on world), flew my still stock (but flyable) landing pod to this newly marked station- woohoo it was a construction station. made $$$ for hauling. Bought a rover. did more search contracts, etc.

    Never once mined nor assembled. :) I imagine, had the test gone longer, I would have been able to buy an orbiter ship, and start doing space station contracts, then eventually a jump ship, then doing the big $$ hauling missions, all the while adding to my trade station location list of this NPC community. This mode of play worked out GREAT for my style, as I got to tinker with "factory standard" designs of rovers/ships that were now in a much much greater commonality than before. I was tired of tinkering with mining carriages and mining transports to suit different roles. Now look at all the toys i get to tinker with :D

    I didnt have the time to test out further plans, but I had the ambition to identify some of the "grey" factions... not pirate, but rather unscrupulous still... and simply decide "ok im going to go hostile against these guys- because i just dont like their face" to see if i could pick and choose which factions I could be nice or enemy towards, to open up npc raiding of the factional cargo ships. How interesting would it be if no 2 factions had the same alliances with the various npc factions? :)

    There was a literal game to be had there, not building a dayum thing. :)

    I approve of the new update content, and yes, I want it right now please. I get that the station trading is not so much commodity/economy trading, but rather 7-11 store convenience purchases. (Sure- I could go look for uranium and mine it myself, but the store has some right there right now... and I DO have some of this new money thing... and oh my! lookit: earth bound outposts sells uranium... and platinum.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  22. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,407
    Will singleplayer have AI to go along with all the new factions?

    Will I be able to get a bounty put on myself in singleplayer by attacking npc?

    Will AI npc try to collect on that bounty in singleplayer?
     
  23. BitsNoKibbles Trainee Engineer

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    79
    As I understand it, this economy-thing was just a test. They're not sure how the technological framework is going to work out, much less how the addition of an "economy" is going to affect gameplay.

    My guess is that value will be established by supply and demand -- ie items that are scarce (difficult to find) and in high demand (ie necessary or highly desirable) will have "high value" and will be available for trade/purchase at higher cost than more plentiful items.

    Ex: On one of my survival saves I've had a helluva time locating cobalt. Just can't find any. If it were available for purchase somewhere, I could sell some of the resources that I can find (gold, silver, platinum) and buy some. In the Real World (tm) cobalt isn't as valuable as gold and silver but, because it's an essential component to making atmo thrusters, it could be more in demand -- and therefor cost more -- on planet.

    Ditto for platinum off-planet. Need platinum for ions, can't find any, need some way to convert available resources to get some. Locate the only asteroid full of platinum in the area, drop a station with a store and corner the market.

    All of this is basic supply-sink stuff. Scarcity (and value/cost) will be driven by context, but that just means you have an opportunity to maximize profit once you've covered the bases, which is long-term gameplay anyway.

    I'm excited about the possibilities and, as long as they don't try to attach any kind of Real World (tm) money to it, I think it'll work out just fine.
     
  24. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    850
    Not there during the test, maybe they will add that as it develops

    Yes. grinding any factions property is now a crime- it affects your "Reputation" #. for each second you grind say, an NPC faction owned Private Sail Passing by, you will get -1 rep from that faction, and +1 rep for space pirate faction. Each second- so often -4/-5 per thing you want to hack (oh and gone are the days of Ctrl-A hacking) Get negative enough with a faction, and their stations will place a bounty contract on you. The test wasnt on long enough for anyone to get a bad reputation that far, so it remains unknown if the contract will provide a gps like all the other contracts do :)

    Unknown at this time, again because the test wasnt long enough for anyone to reach that point :(

    Stations can spawn ships, and spawn grids for contracts, so its not unreasonable they could also spawn bounty hunter ships... Here is hoping :)
     
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  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    First off, this:
    was sarcasm. I always say stuff like this. Guess times have changed.

    Dude, have you seen my avatar picture? I grew up in the 60's. We really did expect there would be flying cars by now. Not the magic Jetsons kind. Something that used propellers or jets. You know, like Space Engineers. There have actually been some, but they can't get FAA approval here or whatever they need in other countries. Apparently no one has ever made a safe one.

    I know. I exercise that option every time I play. That was not the point, which was that the option became available too soon, in my opinion. In the beginning your ships had to be space-only. Before people really got the chance to explore the opportunities of designing with zero gravity and no point references as design features rather than constraints, planets entered the picture and the ability to land on planets became a key feature of just about everything in the workshop. Most of the stuff we see resembles a real life ocean vessel or submarine. Those designs make sense in a gravity well. Not so much in space. It's just going to take folks a lot longer to realize that now. It's not the end of the world. I'm just saying we might have seen a lot more design variety by now.

    I don't disagree with this, but as I said earlier I guess my real beef is the space credits and the belief that none of this could happen without them. They could dump the space credits and the shields and we could still have stores and contracts.

    I also admit that I don't think like a new player, but I can certainly imagine someone picking up this game and upon seeing the same "economy" that they are familiar with in other games they will completely forego the mine/refine/build feature part of Space Engineers. I suppose this feature would make the game more palatable on Xbox. In fact, a Space Engineers game where buying ships is the point and building ships is an option makes sense for a console game. Especially a console game where mods are forbidden.

    except, in my opinion, that hunger makes sense like air makes sense. If our character is a living being that needs to breathe, it should also need food. In any game that has shields in it, if you don't use them you are not going to be able to participate in a multiplayer session. If everyone has access to the same shields, the shields wont make any difference. Shields are great if you have them and your opponent doesn't, and shields suck when your opponent has them and you don't. That becomes the basis for all "balance" arguments that eventually lead to server admins removing them.

    I am OK with safe zones because they are placed by the admin. "Trade zones" are in the hands of players. What could possibly go wrong?(Kappa needed here)

    I guess what I'm saying is that before planets SE kinda forced creativity in ship design, and planets presented an excuse to just do things in a familiar way and not take chances. "Space Credits" do the same thing for an "economy." They remove the need to be creative. Not the stores. Not the Contracts. Just the Space Credits. It's not the end of the world. It's just that now it will take longer to find out if there's a better way.
     
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  26. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,554
    All the talk about shields, isn't it just the "safe zone" that has been out for a few months already? They just made it have a fancy adjustable look for the area of the safe zone?

    I don't think it is straight-up shields that can be used on any and every ship.

    I could, of course, be wrong I didn't get to see much of the stream and only got to try out the test for maybe an hour.
     
  27. Malware Master Engineer

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    Correct. The second change is that they're created via a specialized block. They're... kinda shields but not shields...
     
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  28. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,816
    Not to derail too much, but...

    As @Malware said, it's a special block. You can't put one on a ship. Only stations or voxels. It's not a shield per se. It's a safe zone that the player can place and customize. You toggle damage, grinding, welding, etc. You control the size and shape. It can be made large enough to cover a small city. Therefore, it could be used as a shield to protect your "trading post" if it's on a celestial body or if it's a station. Unlike a Safe Zone, it must be powered and you can't mine for the "fuel". You can only buy the fuel with space credits. The "balancing" is achieved by making everything about it expensive. From what I was able to watch from the play test, I don't believe I saw anyone get far enough to actually build one, much less maintain it.

    That's how they're supposed to work. During @Xocliw 's stream people wanted to know if one could place their zone inside someone else's zone, thus denying the other person access to their own zone. Then the hijacker could just wait until the other zone runs out of gas and then they could have their way with it.

    Another pressing concern was, what would stop someone from installing a zone on a ship, and then turning the ship into a station when attacked, thus enabling the zone?

    There was, from what I could gleen from chat, more interest in the zone than the economy. They're not shields, but they prevent damage to your stuff, which is what shields do. So, yeah, they're not shields, but they're shields.

    This thread is about in-game currency, and I'm pretty sure it's my fault it's getting derailed. My stance on planets and shields has been fairly well established. I'm always willing to discuss them, but not in this thread. I will continue to discuss currency since that's the topic :)
     
  29. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    275
    I figured as much. For my post I was simply making a conversational point as well. I may sometimes appear cold or standoff-ish, but rarely do I ever actually mean it that way, i'm just extremely blunt which doesn't always translate well over text only chat. I've just never been the type to sugarcoat stuff when speaking my mind, which sometimes doesn't come out the way I planned in my head if you catch my drift.

    I will confess I hadn't paid that much attention to it until you mentioned it. Funny little coincidence I suppose. Just glad to see I'm not the only one who knows about that show aside from the references. watched the old re-runs constantly when I was a kid. Also kind of dating yourself a bit there dude lols :p In seriousness there is that version of a flying car the Israelis were working on not too awful long ago. idk what became of it but they were the last crew I know of working on one.

    That's certainly a fair argument that can be made in that they came too soon. At the same time I would also argue that the changes you mentioned to alot of standard designs was inevitable regardless of when planets were implemented, be it for better or worse. Folks are virtually always going to go for the path of least resistance. I'm guilty of this myself depending on the game and situation. If I can avoid a bunch of mobs I don't need to fight that will do little more than annoy me, then I'll do it. In regards to SE most folks that I've observed see it as a waste to build 2 ships one for space and one for ground, when they can build one that does both and be done with it. Personally like I said I have some that are space only, some atmosphere only, and some that can do both. Just depends on what I want it to do or need it to do. Likewise that also determines whether I do the R&D of the construction in space or on the ground. I like the idea of having some ships/vehicles that are specialized to their environment than going exclusively with jack of all trades type builds. Point being where as you or I might be more prone to develop something that's specialized to atmo or space, that path of least resistance to most folks is typically a jack of all trades master of none type of build. Then of course there's the space barbie factor where some folks have a preferred look for ships for whatever reason regardless of how efficient it would be, or not be. However that's opening and entirely different can of worms. At the end of the day you or I could harp on why it may not be good to do exclusively jack of all trades type builds until we're blue in the face, but as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink if you catch my drift.

    I've been on both sides of the coin between player and small time content development/modding for older games. In fact several of the maps and missions I created in Time Splitters Future Perfect using their map maker were EA recommended for a good while. I like to think I can see both sides of the coin and somewhat relate to both. One of the big things I've learned is that less can often be more. You are correct that they could scrap the safe zones and credits and still make the economy functional, but then you open a completely different can of worms. If the credits weren't in place it raises questions like, what would be used to trade instead. The most logical choice imo would be different kinds of ores or in a few rare cases components. Then it would have to be determined, which ores would be used, how much of your ore would be needed, how many of their ores/items would you get in return, which ore is cheaper to use trade wise, and would ultimately become this giant unholy spreadsheet of values. Then you would also have the folks complaining that it wants too much of Ore A for not enough of Ore B who would complain the values need to be changed. Then you would have another guy saying he's dumb and it's fine where it is, and it would never end on that front. That's not saying that folks never complain now, but this would be a billion and one times worse.

    In regards to the safe zone side of things, if something like it wasn't in place, then you've got to answer the question of how you safeguard against trolls and folks that would just nuke the stations to prevent anyone from ever gaining access to the stores/contracts. Given no anti-troll or anti-griefing solution is going to be 100% effective, some type of abuse prevention is needed. If they made it to where the stations were just invulnerable outright, then that means there's a giant mass of thing potentially in someone's territory now that they can't get rid of. On the opposite end if they didn't have something in place folks could just troll endlessly.

    By introducing the credits, they bypassed the giant unholy spreadsheet becoming a thing and gave a universal medium of exchange. Much easier to fix individual credit costs for items vs 5-6 different ore values for that same item, or at least less time consuming. In regards to the safe zones, adding the restriction that they have to be on stations as well as a power requirement drastically cuts down on potential trolling. The other issues in console vs pc can just be chalked up to potential limits based on the platform restrictions.

    In regards to the hunger and air, I agree they do make sense as they are requirements for virtually all complex biological life we've seen so far. I get why folks ask for hunger systems, I've just never been a fan of them as every one of them I've seen turns into a debuff against your efficiency and so on for not keeping it full. Plus to me it's infuriating to get into this giant battle with someone or something, and barely make it out alive, only to die 5 seconds late because I hadn't eaten in awhile and didn't have a chance to do so while fighting. That's just my personal preference which is why I would hope if such a system were implemented, that just like the oxygen system, it would be made an optional thing, even if enabled by default.

    In regards to not using shields in games that have them precluding you from multiplayer matches, that's actually not true and will vary from game to game. For each game that is that way there's just as many that aren't. A prime example is Warframe. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Warframe but in that game there are several frames in that game that are health only frames. One in particular that is one of my more built up frames is called Nidus. To make up for the fact he doesn't have a shield he has increased health, and other ways to regenerate lost health and keep yourself operable. He's just one of several health only units you can control. In Star Trek Online, where shields are a central part of the game, you can absolutely go without shields and survive even though it's not ideal. Even in Warframe or STO, shields are nice to have but aren't invincible and can be busted. In STO there is actually a 10% bleedthrough on most shields meaning 10% of the damage still gets through. Some specialized shields have that reduced to 5% but even then. Deep Space Nine where the mirror Defiant fights the mirror Negh'var demonstrates this. The Negh'var was technically the superior ship in terms of firepower, but once Sisko took the helm, they couldn't hit it, and the Defiant rolled that Negh'var. I always argue that it's not always the equipment one has that matters but how it's used. In Star Trek Online for example, you could give a veteran player and a newer player the exact same high end build and conditions, and the veteran will outperform the newer player every time. Even with shields, in that game it's 80% skill, the other 20% is setup and equipment. Personally I still want to see shields be a thing, just as long as folks have an option to turn them off if they don't want them.

    With anything of course we want there to be safeguards and such. I think the test exposed a few potential issues from what I could see on stream. We'll see how this all works out in time I suppose. I don't think it's going to be that bad honestly, and hopefully is used to give us other fun features we might want in the future.

    I suppose you could say they're a half-shield of sorts.
     
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  30. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,816
    For those reading this that don't know me let me be clear. I am in no way disrespecting other people's builds. Everyone should be proud of anything they build, have built, or will ever build. If there's one opinion I'm going to keep to myself, it's what I think about what you built. If I'm watching your stream and you are building what I would consider to be an atrocity I would still help you build it if asked, because this game is about you doing your thing your way.

    My approach is, in fact, to lead people to water. If they're thirsty, they'll drink ;). That's why for the last nearly 9000 hours I have been working on what I believe to be the epitome of spacecraft design. I practice what I preach in terms of how I believe spacecraft ought to be designed, within the confines of the Space Engineers Universe. I post screenshots and try to stream my sessions. I don't publish blueprints because my stuff usually has way too many mods. I have, though, gotten into the habit of publishing and updating my current sessions so that if someone want's to get the mods I use or try out my builds they can do so. Expect long loading times, though ;).

    Not only that. The problem with the other systems is that they are overly complicated and generally not properly implemented because they were an afterthought. SE being a sandbox, what we are really after is the hunger mechanic. A bare-bones system that causes the character to need food, and something that works as food that the character will need to find and (usually) process. Lack of food should affect the character's performance, eventually leading to death. SE already has the necessary code to provide this. Organic matter was in the game. The Survival Kit and the Refinery (yuk) could process organic matter into a food substance. A dedicated food processor could be a new block. Like air now, having food packets or a visit to a medbay could satisfy food requirements. The progressive deterioration of health due to hunger should take days, not hours. I play using a 6 hour day. If I don't consume any food at all it should take me at least 5 "days" or 30 game hours to die. You'll spend more game time gasping for air than trying to get a space food bar.

    Modders and DLC could provide all the bells and whistles and, like both air and air-tightness, it's your choice to have them enabled.

    To be clear, when I refer to the implementation of shields, I am speaking strictly about Space Engineers. I know other games have them, and most, if not all, of those other games (certainly STO) were designed for shields bottom-up. I play Halo. I have had quite a few posts in both Bungie's and 343i's forums about shields. I was a defender of Armor Lock in Reach. That didn't win me any friends :D

    I talk about the implementation of shields in SE. There are plenty of shield mods and modded shield mods. My observation is that shield mods are well received but servers that feature them eventually feature their removal. The difference between SE and other space games is that in the other games you shoot at something and it will eventually blow up. The point of the shields is to give otherwise vulnerable ships that the game provides you with a fighting chance to last until the end of the match. SE ships are more realistic because even if heavily damaged they can still fight or flee. It ain't over until it's over ;). The "balancing" dilemma stems from the fact that it already takes a ridiculously long time to disable an SE ship. The point of an SE shield then, in my opinion, would be to have an extra layer or two of armor without the weight penalty or the impact on the ship's looks. I don't think that's a good enough reason for Keen to ignore their stated vision of Space Engineers having 21st Century technology. The only argument the shield proponents have is that gravity generators are in the game and they are also unlikely this century, so since Keen caved on that they should just abandon all their principals. My counter-argument is that Keen should rethink gravity generators as electrostatic field generators with a much smaller area of influence. That would remove the "tech/smeck" argument.

    I'm glad you asked.

    Currency (money, if you will) is made up. If you have some sort of currency note in your pocket, take it out and give it a look, then ask yourself what makes it valuable. Is it made of gold? Probably not. Did I give someone gold in order to have this currency note? Probably not. How is it possible, then, that I can buy things with it and even my friends will give me things in exchange for it?

    The chief function of currency is as a convenient form of transporting large quantities of stuff like, typically, gold. It's chief usage is in exchange for labor. But these days most economic systems are not backed by gold. What makes it valuable?

    The answer, as it turns out, is actually a feature of Keen's economic system: reputation. The currency note you are holding has a reputation of being accepted as legal tender by banks and merchants all over the globe. You accepted that note from someone because you know you can spend it. Whoever you offer it to knows that they will also be able to spend it. What you can get for it depends on it's reputation, compared to the reputations of other currencies. In the real world, currency is a commodity. Just like oil or gold. Or iron or cobalt. Everything is only worth what others are willing to exchange for it.

    Factions could create currency and back it with whatever they choose. A faction's reputation would determine it's relative value. Individual transactions could be accomplished using either currency or ore. Currency would likely be the best way to pay people for things they do or make and not necessarily as a means to acquire resources. The trading post feature, then, would be a welcome addition to the game.

    If your trading post is destroyed by a griefer, that would be a tragedy, if that was your only trading post. If you are playing a game where everyone is out to get you, in my opinion your trading posts should not get special treatment. Griefing should be handled. Blocks designed to prevent griefing are grief-magnets. There was a whole other thread about griefing and, from what I understand, some servers deal with it better than others. The ones that deal with it best don't need shielded trading posts, in my opinion.

    As I said, I try to practice what I preach. My server will have trading enabled, but my faction will not accept space credits.


    I just don't trust em ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019 at 00:54
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