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Inertial dampening and small turret range nerf?

Discussion in 'General' started by Fipmip, Jun 30, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    I might have missed a memo somewhere. has there been a nerf to inertial dampening and small turret range in the last year or so? I recently busted out a space to atmosphere raider from march 2016 when I built it - I remember it was able to reliably dart around turret fire as long as it stayed at range, but now it needs to get closer and I swear it's moving more sluggishly.
     
  2. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    You left an early access game for more than a year and expected everything to be the same? You missed more than a memo.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    Sorry but I didn't remotely imply anything of the sort. I've logged into the game every few months or so to test performance and have kept up with patch notes fairly regularly, I'm just wondering when these changes happened, if anyone might remember.
     
  4. Roxette Senior Engineer

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  5. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    alright so i went into creative and made a small grid weighing 5000kg. It says in those patch notes that small ships still have 5x the power in their dampeners to make them more agile. The small grid i made has a large thruster on the front and back. Using a stopwatch, it took:
    ~5s to reach 100ms
    ~5s to go back down to 0 using only inertial dampeners.
    Unless I'm being dumb somehow and I'm misinterpreting this statement, it should take 1 second to stop with intertial dampeners, not 5. which is a relief, because I thought i was going crazy when I remembered much better handling back then. If there hasn't been a noted change somewhere, this could be a bug, or a secret unmentioned change.
     
  6. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I think it's the double-secret probation thing that no one's talking about.
     
  7. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    It seemed to me that inertial dampening for the character got a (unwelcome, in my opinion) buff. Or nerf, I forget, and I'm unable to run the game right now. All I know is that somewhere along the line I found myself running in to things much more often than usual (I nicknamed my character "bonk"). I seem to recall after the update Roxette linked that I was happy with how my ships handled. I hope they leave it alone.

    As far as character movement, I think there's a bunch of stuff in the works that they're itching to roll out.

    I dont' have any insight on small turret range, but that will probably change with the update.
     
  8. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    Magic thrust for dampeners was removed shortly before planets were added, as having it led to counterintuitive situations where thrusting up led to ships falling down.

    Character space suits still have some magic thrust. Plus a recent boost to acceleration which can lead to sudden death if you don't pay attention.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    Going back now for another quick test I can see the character has the property in which your inertial dampener stops you faster than you start. This thread is about small ship movement though as this property for small ships seems to have been lost.

    Hmm if that's correct then then that after the patch in October 2015 linked by Roxette, this property was removed shortly afterwards as planets arrived in November of the same year. However unless my memory is faulty, there's still something wrong with this timeline as i still distinctly remember small ships handling much better when I uploaded a small ship I created in February 2016. Now here we are in June 2018 and it seems it's gone.

    I'm not sure about the thrusting up = down situation, although it seems a little harsh to gimp small ships like this due to what sounds like a small bug. Can you add any detail to what was happening?
     
  10. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    Heavy ships near planets could have hovered on the dampeners, relying on the bonus magic thrust, but pressing the key to go up sets it down to 1x thrust, so the ship starts to fall. The heavy ships could climb up by flying forwards at a small upwards angle above the horizon, allowing the magic thrust to support the weight.

    The increased graphics requirements of the game might be causing it to run more slowly on your computer - this is generally the case for me as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    I had an interruption and the post was unfinished, sorry... the same was done to small ship thrusters at a later time, I was trying to identify the date, but as (like many 'minor' changes) it did not appear in searching the posted change notes, the confirmation is probably in a Keen response to it being questioned, amost certainly in a bug report or other random thread, here or on the steam forums, discord, facebook or any of the other places where information is randomly disseminated...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Hmm I think I'll need to play around a bit more with small ships vs large turrets in the current state. It may be that small ships were op before, due to being able to dance on the edge of turret range while shooting with massed gatlings and a camera. i didnt get enough of a chance to test back then. either way i hope skilled pilots still have a chance against larger foes relying on pure automation.
     
  13. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Greetings

    Don't know about the timeline of the Nerf patches too long ago now and can't be bothered trying to chase them up. How ever they did Nerf the inertial dampening so I currently use a mod that replaces the original power for them and have never had a ship go up instead of down as per Arcturus post, I think it was more lobbying by the realism crew that made them do it. I still remember with agony flying my small grid welder ship to my larger grid ship hauler and not being able to zippily fly into my hangar bay, showing off to myself by comfortably landing on a dime. Instead I took out my floor and the other bay door on the opposite side and saying WTF!

    They also Nerfed the output of the nuclear generators for both large and small grids which greatly affected the small grid small generators especially. I used to love being a small grid small ship builder in survival SE. This made the small ships especially a lot less viable (especially if you wanted to fully equip them with oxygen/hydrogen and then atmos) as you had to compensate by strapping on more generators and therefore more other blocks to attach them too (more weight) ultimately making small grid small ships a lot less usable especially on planets when they arrived along with atmo thrusters. Unless you made the small grid small ships atmo thruster porcupines with no dressing blocks and only being held together with framework consisting of conveyor links etc. Leading to things like a rise in "plunge miners" as small grid small ship miners were practically useless on planets. Note: I am not saying impossible so don't start that argument again Lol!

    Sadly this flow on effect pretty much destroyed most of my own personal enjoyment with SE so I rarely play it now only firing it up occasionally to see what has changed because of my old love of the game. I used to have whole fleets of small grid ships miners, welders, haulers, fighters, explorers, carriers etc etc after all I'm just one man in survival not a whole crew flying large ships. Unless you mainly build large grid ships or small grids for particular purposes only (such as a strike fighter etc) small grid small ship building is dead. Ooohh I'll get shot for that statement I am sure. :munch::baby:

    P.S. Sorry rant done I'll shut up about it again for another six months. :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Well, the realism crew had a hand in it, certainly. However Keen was trying to discourage large, complicated small grid builds that would tank performance. Yeah, a lot of people quit because they preferred unrealistic performance with their builds, but lots more have come aboard and I haven't talked to a single self-described new player that really thinks they ought to be able to zip around in close quarters without consequences.

    Bottom line, I predict that the next tweak, if any, to inertial dampening will be the last one, and then the mods made afterward to undo the tweak will also be the last ones.
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    "Realism crew" I don't know. But I saw several polls over time where non-magical dampers won out. None where magical dampers won out. So at least at the time, this is what the community wanted. Also there's the fact that the magical dampers made it quite easy to just "coast" off a planet without actually having enough thrust.

    Me, I kept crashing with the magical dampers because they weren't intuitive so my ship didn't do what I expected it to do...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    15
    I think I understand that people would crash their ships due to overestimating their magic dampeners. I know I definitely expected to come to a stop a few times only to continue on to shatter against the side of an asteroid.

    However now that its gone, I'm still fairly prone to crashing into things. the only difference now it that although I tend to give myself more room to stop, I still overestimate it sometimes and crash, no less than I did before. just more slowly. On top of that I no longer have the maneuverability I used to have flying small ships. My turns aren't as hard, which has led to much less ability to fly around tight spaces at high speed. I have to move far more slowly now.
     
  17. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I believe that was the intent. The solution has been modded engines.

    Mind you, I don't have a heck of a lot of time flying small grid small ships. The kind of ships you are (probably) talking about would likely be drones in my fleet, and they would probably fly themselves using the auto pilot, which usually does a better job than I can when it comes to not crashing. I do know that in other games where you have a fast, nimble craft to fly, the game flies the craft more than you do, and a lot of pilot error is forgiven ;)
     
  18. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    15
    alright after some testing I'm back. I took my old space to atmosphere raider and gave it a pretty serious upgrade, boasting four large atmoshperic thrusters instead of the one it had before, two pointing down and two pointing backwards, two backwards ion thrusters, six grouped front facing gatling guns and two gatling turrets, one top and one bottom. I noticed that the large uranium power gen could barely run the thing while in atmospere, but it seems like just enough.

    The results:

    Movement:
    Weighs 60000kg with no cargo. At the end of the day it's still a raider and so has two medium containers for storing loot. Can only just get into space. It has many secondary ion and atmospheric thrusters, but I had to add a few more to get it transition worthy. Acceleration is alright in atmosphere at ~5 seconds to get to full speed, and a slow ~15 in space. Terrible stopping power in space, should try to work on that.

    Combat:
    Lightly armoured so getting hit = very bad. My tactics involved dancing around at range against enemy turrets trying to peel off emplacements using grouped gatlings. The short of it is, Im just not maneuverable enough to not get hit at this range, and end up shredded. good success against singular turrets but more than two is very difficult.
    My other tactic is to fly around the base, wiggling up and down to throw off turrets while letting my own shoot back. Even though I was closer at 600m to let my turrets shoot, they did little damage as the enemy base was large and of course they would switch targets frequently. still good against singular turrets but bad against multiple.
    I then took to space. I was unable to take down a SPAT mining hauler with its three gatlings and two missiles. I even took out an old space only fighter I made with four backwards ion thrusters, but was still unsuccessful.

    Conclusions:
    Overall it's pretty obvious my old fighters are no longer viable. I'm going to try to see if i can get better results with hydrogen, even though I hate having to worry about fuel lines and ice stock. I'm also going to see If i can get a semblance of high powered turns using large thrusters in all directions. I just hope I'll be able to make something thats viable and looks better than a box with guns on it.
     
  19. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,994
    I’ve almost exclusively gone to hydrogen thrusters (unless it’s a dedicated “space” ship) because of the weight/thrust limitations of atmospheric thrusters and their effective altitude limitations on planets.
     
  20. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    You won't need two cargo containers, because your ship is very heavy while empty, so you won't be able to fill even one and still fly. Two small grid large atmo pointing downwards support a bit over 80000 kg, but if you want to stop a fall you need extra, so the flyable limit is likely 60000 kg or less.

    All electric space to atmo ships will be heavy and slow compared to a pure atmo or pure ion ship. I suggest you go on a weight reduction program for your old designs. I don't have the blueprints, but I seem to recall my similar ships being in the 30000 kg range - I think it was a raider with no cargo capacity.
     
  21. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    Yeah its starting to look like you can't do combat without hydro in small ships. Thanks for the tip about lift capacity. My current goal is to have a space-atmo raider that can flick on a hyrdo system when it needs to do combat or transition from/to space, but can at least move without it. It's looking to be pretty difficult to have all that, as well as space for hydrogen fuel and a decent size cargo. I've got a first version up, but I'll see if i can get atmo-without-hydro working on a full cargo tomorrow. hopefully it doesn't end up too large. Looking to be a fun challenge so far. If you know of any vanilla workshop craft that do something similar, please pass it along.

    As a fun side note, the actual date of change for magic thrust was update 1.07 which was on the 5th november 2015, so there's that mystery solved. It's mentioned on the wiki page for thrusters.
     
  22. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Greetings

    Yes your feeling the pain for small grid small ships right there. In the end I had to forget about them and build a "small" large grid fighter probably more akin to a destroyer type to be successful in the kind of fights you describe especially if looks are a thing for your builds. :(

    P.S. Not saying it can't be done period I AM saying the game now makes small grid ships very very difficult to make "nice" looking small grid ships that are actually useful and not just thruster pin cushions. I get my small grid fix in "that other game" now.
     
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