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Jump Drives vs. Jump Gates Debate

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Leroy, Feb 28, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Leroy Trainee Engineer

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    7
    I want to begin by saying that this thread has brought light to a couple of interesting topics along with jump drives and aspects behind them. With this post, I want to apply my input into the topics behind jump gates and jump drives.
    Let's start talking about the feature we already have Jump drives. Reading through the posts a couple mention deterrents for jump drives a combat. I feel using a sort of a jamming system would work better as a block rather than a ship size but different power inputs to the block would allow for a stronger jammer. There needs a way for an attacking player to be able to hold his target or a reasonable amount of time before they jump out. Saying this I do think jump drives stay in the game even if the speed is up to around 200 m/s just because of the size of the solar system Keen has created for us, which I enjoy by the way, but there needs to be a way to limit the drives in combat situations. Now that I mentioned combat I am going to segway into jump gates because I believe they create combat if you do it properly. The way we have our server set up, Virgo System, we are working on adding a second solar system to our server and the only effective way is to use the 1 jump gate to the other solar system. We are using the super jump gate from the stargate mod. You might be thinking adding another solar system is going to dilute your server making the players to spread out for interaction and what is the point of going to these other systems and using the jump gates. Well, the simple answer is materials. We have modified the ore spawn so that they new ores only spawn on the certain planets. These ores are used to make weapons from the OKI mod like the 230mm cannon rounds. Now how does this create combat? The solar system does dilute the server but at the same time bottlenecks the players for the reason if they want to create powerful weapons they will have to travel to different planets and gather the ores. The bottlenecks would be the jump gates. The only way to and from the other regions for the ores. The jump gates are large making it hard to just completely stop players from the gates but not too large that blockading a gate would be impossible just take a bit of creativity. The gates also made so they can only be placed/built by admins. So to recap jumpdrives are good but need a way to impair them for a short amount of time to create a conflict and jump gates are good for combat regions. These are probably one of the best possibilities to create a new way of creating conflict.

    **Note: If anyone is interested in our server, Virgo System, with a max of 25 players and around 30 mods. Also be aware of the changes I talk about above restarts on the server are currently very often.**
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  2. PotatoGolem Apprentice Engineer

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    128
    I read this thread name and thought, woohhh how big of a jump drive would you need to jump a whole planet :) lol

    Now there's an end game goal :p ( I'm obviously just kidding lol )

    Edit spelling/clarification
     
  3. PilotMax Apprentice Engineer

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    181
    I want to be able to accurately jump near a planet from afar.
     
  4. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    How about an 'override safeties' button?
    Turns off all the built in safety features, lets you trigger the jump regardless of origin or destination.
    A few ideas for consequences:
    For each 0.1g at the start position, add a 10-15% error to the end position (try to jump 100km to orbit from the surface of a planet, and your destination has a 100%-150% error applied, meaning you could end up anywhere inside a 150km sphere of your destination, but also outside a 100km sphere. You could do it, but might end up inside the planet you just jumped from.
    For each 0.1g at the destionation position, apply up to a 10% reduction in jumped distance. So if you try to jump 100km from 0g to a 0.5g place, the distance you actually travel could be anywhere between 50 and 100 km towards your destination.
    For each 1% of atmosphere at the jump origin, apply damage to the surface blocks of the ship.
    For each 1% of atmoshere at the destination, apply twice the damage as above.
    For each km beyond the max range of your drive you try to jump, the max range on that drive is permenantly reduced by twice that amount. So if your drive can only go 1000km, and you try to jump 1500km, you will, but the drive blocks you used will have a zero max range until ground down and replaced (maybe make a drive stressed this way return a percenage of its components as scrap?) if the distance goes negative, the drive should explode as if it was made of the same volume of warheads.
    Jump into matter, and you make an explosion.
     
  5. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    A blind ump inside a atmosphere is extremely dangerous
    Why not a jump room? So it can safe waypoint for your jump
     
  6. Burillo Junior Engineer

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    648
    teleports :D that would be kind of awesome, now that i think of it. getting to the planet is hard, but once you're set up the teleport, it makes it easier. just the engineer though, not the ships.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    So... even less use for the ships we make? :p
     
  8. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    Short atmospheric jump for small grid can be a solution
     
  9. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    411
    I think it'd be cool if they changed the jump drives to be able to work in a planetary gravity well, but they made the distance it covered in the gravity well count as further than really is for the purpose of the drives max distance.

    Something like:
    EffectiveDistance = ActualDistance * 10 ^ (NaturalGravity * 10)

    The edge of the grav well, .05G, each meter traveled would count as 3 meters to the jump drive. On the surface of the earthlike, each meter would count as 10 billion meters, so it can't be used to teleport you from planet to space.

    I think it would just give the jump drive a more immersive feel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    I do not support the ability to jump away from planet surface. I find it perfectly reasonable (and immersive, if you will) that the gravity field affects the jump drive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Cheetah97 Trainee Engineer

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    31
    For me, Jump Drives are non-immersive, abusive and imbalanced altogether. They shall either be very large, heavy and energy-consuming (so you can't easily jump out of a battle), or, better, be removed altogether and replaced with Jump Launchers, which will work similar to current Jump Drives but rather be stationary and transport not themselves but ships near them to a given position (or maybe to a paired launcher, which effectively makes them a classic Jump Gate).
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    Totally agree.
    Hyperspace Gates are better
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. PilotMax Apprentice Engineer

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    181
    I agree. And maybe it should not be possible to jump THROUGH them either?
     
  14. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    Combat issue could be tackled with longer launch time
     
  15. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    and what would happen if you jump drive into a planet? :p

    will there be a massive hole beamed into the ground until you reach the blind-jump location where the ship had exploded?
    like remember that hole in AVP?

    will the ship just appear inside the planet and explode?
    or will it just instantly disappear and kill the player?



    at first i thought by planet jumps i thought you meant accelerating hard enough on a small planet allowing you to escape the gravity pull and hopefully reaching another planets atmosphere..........by only using atmospheric thrust...so you've no ability to do fine touches once you get into space.
     
  16. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,601
    That depends on what kind of jump drive this is. It kinda looks more like some form of wormhole or hyperspace drive than a warp, meaning that the planet would simply not be there "during" the jump. Besides, I can't really see that it would really make much of a difference for gameplay.
     
  17. PilotMax Apprentice Engineer

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    181
    Just convinience. I kind of hate it when I aim at a planet and end up 300 km behind it.
     
  18. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    Hyperspace gates is always the safe and chepeast choice.
    • Do not need add jump to each ship.
    • Can have the longest range.
    • Never hit a celestial body.
    • Giant gates are cool
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  19. Yeoman Trainee Engineer

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    98
    Jump gates would be much better. Don't make them have to link but rather make them one-way catapults. This way you could build one, jump, then have to build another to get back. This would prevent the excruciating flight times that jump drives were made to counter, but would make exploring more fun.
     
  20. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    I am all for Jump Gates replacing Jump Drives, or make Jump Drives something that has a really long spool up (a full minute?) and no matter the range of your jump fully deplete the capacitor. (Why not both, actually?)

    Jump Gates on the other hand:
    - Energy requirement should be based on ship mass (as it currently is)
    - Should be able to gate something as long as the capacitors contains enough energy to jump the object (not requiring full charge)
    - Range is unaffected by Mass. Gates have a set max range, and the energy requirements is basically the limiter for how big of a ship you can jump.
    - Multiple "Jump Gates" link together as current Jump Drives, although they increase range a lot less - like 25% extra for each (additively) - but increases the capacitor storage (obviously due to having multiple) and as a side effect increases the maximum mass of a ship to jump through.
    - Energy Drain should not be based on the range that you jump something, it should only be based on ship mass.
    - Could potentially target another "Jump Gate" to decrease energy requirement by 25-50%, but require the energy drain to come from both sides? (therefor increasing max mass able to be jumped as well)
    - Keep the 10 second spool up time, although Jump Gates shouldn't jump involuntary ships at all, and should be initiated from the ship, not from the gate (based on the permission scheme on the Jump Gate)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  21. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    [​IMG]

    although this one is from star trek from the Borg faction....you know.....aye m80 turn off your sheilds and become us or die.

    it would be pretty sweet.
     
  22. EternityTide Senior Engineer

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    1,950
    I'm not sure... I kinda like Jump drives as being standalone devices operating from a ship instead of as a stationary jumpgate.
    The immediate issue I can imagine with stationary jumpgates is them catapulting you off into the void with no way back. Alternatively, it will make colony founding efforts that much more complex - you'd have to fire off a ship to the planet/moon you want, and then wait hours for its return trip if it cannot facilitate a jump back.
    I have no objection to an increase in jump-drive energy consumption, and perhaps you could split them into two variants - orbital and interplanetary.
    Orbital drives are small and can only jump 50-100 km at a time, but with a relatively short recharge and spool up time. They can be used in the shallow fringes of gravitational fields, but no deeper than 0.2g
    Interplanetary drives have far greater range 1000-10,000 km lets say, but at the cost of greater energy demands, longer recharge and spool up time, and a near complete intolerance of gravity wells - perhaps they could jump within a 0.01g field, but at a risk of severe damage to the drive itself, as well as severe power drain.
    I'm not entirely averse to the idea of jump gates - useful for small vessels with no jump drive of their own. A size limit would render them still useful for small transport craft, but unusable for dreadnoughts and cargo ships.
     
  23. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Been on the Jump Gate bandwagon since day one, but the jump-drive shouldn't be completely nerfed; just tweaked to separate them from one an other.

    My opinion on the matter is:

    -Jump Gates should be configurable to do two things: Point-to-point transportation (aka from one gate to another despite range); and two: Allow for a specific jump distance in a specific direction (namely the "front" or "rear" of the gate) but at a far greater distance than the default FTL drive can manage.

    -Jump Gates should have a means to calculate the size of a ships dimensions with the size of the gate: This would ensure that you are not jumping a massive, super-capital ship through a gate smaller in diameter (which would make owning and moving such large structures reliant on their FTL drives instead (checks and balances are needed for such massive structure). < And visually, though mass works to calculate power and range costs, it is possible to build a massive structure (horizontally and/or vertically) that simply never could fit though the actual structure. <That is unless the design is more "Open" rather than an actual round, square, or other such Enclosed design.

    -With the second, it is important to allow for custom "points" where the FTL effect takes effect. If you want to use the center of the gate, you set the point there. If the gate is technically a half gate and the ships are suppose to move adjacent to the gate instead (the way Mass Effect jump gates worked), it would be needed to allow you to position the point to the side/s.

    -The Jump Gate power requirements would remain based on the overall mass, but the physical size of the ship would have to be taken into account for specific designs. If a player wants only small ships or small large ships, then they build their gate "small". If you want to build one for that super-carrier you've been working on for the past month, you'd have to build a gate large enough (or with enough power <which ties into the size of the thing) to send it through.

    -If taken a bit further, the two major designs (open and enclosed) could also be separated in way to determine what they can do and their intended function. Such as; the open design being constructed only to jump to a set destination, while the enclosed can both jump and "capture" (<as in act as a targeted location for ships to reappear). This way, you can setup unique chains and/or preferences to how you and/or your faction do things. A half-design would be cheaper and faster to make, but you only get to jump to one location and then have to build another on the other side to return (or use your FTL drive).

    The Drives themselves would likely be better balanced with this by adding something to them as well.

    -Keep their default configuration but add a spool-up timer based upon the distance and mass of the ship.

    -Add a new material used as a fuel to give them a boost in range. <Discussed at length elsewhere, this could be a way to extend the range of a ships FTL drive. Though still requiring power, this "material" would extend the range of onboard FTL drives significantly. At the cost of burning this material upon use and having this material collectible/harvestable in small amounts or over long periods of time. (think Battlestar Galactica).

    With this, the jump drive would still be viable from the start for getting to destinations (though requiring more jumps); but after some investment, you can actually switch to using these drives specifically <at a premium (you are paying for the convenience of course).
     
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  24. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Right now there is a design problem with the Jump Drive.
    In its current iteration it allows for complete "non-engage" gameplay.
    Essentially, you can escape from any situation ever. There is no danger of being in space, there is no "long ass recharge" time to deal with 90% of the time (worst case scenario you always have a single charged jump drive ready)
    You can do multiple extremely short jumps over and over again because you will have recharged as you arrive, making short travel via conventional thrusters relatively meaningless.

    Basically the issue with the current Jump Drive is that it is essentially just "Fast Travel" from any game. There is not really any real travel and a 10 second spool up timer is not enough to address any of the issues I mentioned.
    The Jump Drive is beyond just "small tweaks", it is at the stage where even if it is the sole way to travel in the game it should be completely nerfed as it hurts any kind of possible PvP engagement allowing only really for either surprise attacks on unmanned ships or surprise hard hitting attacks as the engagement should not last longer than 10-30 seconds (considering the spool up time) meaning that.. again... PvP by virtue of the existence of Jump Drives becomes more stale.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Eve has an interesting way of dealing with this problem...

    There's that and also many other way to balance this out. Where those trying to flee and those trying to keep an opponent from jumping comes down to the equipment and/or how they have planned and setup their ships. There's no way to stop a player from jumping. Unless you make it impossible for a jump drive to "instantly" attach to a ship or be used.

    In total, there should be a "calculation cycle" <where the FTL drive and ship set the coordinates, a spool-up time for the FTL drive to begin activating <at which time would be the moment a player discharges their own jammer's power to cancel out the jump sequence. <just thought about this possibility.

    A weapon or area of effect (like EMP) that can be strapped to a ship and then used during the moment a ships FTL drive starts to spool-up. Then an only then can/will the weapon/jamming device have an effect. This means that a player being attacked can choose to use their drive immediately and hope the enemy is too slow to respond, or fight them and try to damage their external device to get away. <or (kinda senseless with a speed cap) get out of range of the device.

    Once the device discharges, that is it for that one attacker. The device has to recharge (at say... roughly the same rate as a FTL drive but slightly longer). <Size, output, etc. calculated based upon the size and output of the targets FTL system.

    Example: So say you have a ship that has a full FTL drive ready. He's attacked by a player that has a jammer installed on his/her ship. You can try to destroy this jammer first and then jump; or you can attempt to jump, have the enemy interrupt it with their device (draining their devices reserves) then have to wait till your FTL device recharges enough to jump again. If you are being attacked by two people, you have that much longer to wait and will take twice as long to get away; or you had better put up a bit more fight.

    Being attacked by two players with jammers is a problem. And getting away will guarantee that you need to put up some kind of fight to do so. What this allows though is for time for you to call for help, fight against them, or for you (as the attacker) to call in some fiends. <chalk it up to being one of the major detriments of using a FTL drive instead of a gate.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    To be honest that wont really create an "interesting dynamic" since then it comes down to: who has the most jump drives / jammers.
    I just attempt to only jump with one jump drive at a time.

    It may seem interesting on paper, but in reality it wouldn't work very well. Besides it just becomes "yet another required piece of equipment that is on our ships for no real particular reason".

    If there is a minute long spool up there will actually be some fighting, and the attacker has the advantage of having a clear cut goal of finding and disabling the jump drive while the defenders have the advantage of only having to really deal with guns.

    You could introduce just a straight up "jamming field" and it could potentially create an interesting dynamic of the two sides fighting to take down what ever device first, but then you have the other issue of device stacking again and also both sides are fighting for the exact same thing so it doesn't become an asymmetric fight and instead becomes "Kill the King" gameplay for both sides.

    So I'd say make the spool up a minute or longer (actually preferably longer) and you will see an attacker / defender dynamic in terms of fighting where one side has a clear "win objective" and the defender is a timed fight.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  27. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Could be setup where power requirements of the jammer give them a limited window of use. Spool-up works, but as you say, it could be as simple as having one FTL drive spooling up while another is being used (could even set that up with the timers). All you need to do is shut them down before they actually activate.

    As for stacking, one device at a time per grid. If you want to create a jamming "missile/torpedo" you'd have to fire it off. Of course the power requirements alone to keep it activate would burn through it in a matter of seconds to a minute (based upon radius)... unless you want to strap a large reactor to the thing.

    As long as you are in range of the jammer, you cannot jump. This means anything between small-ships having to stay within 800m and not getting blasted (<have fun with that one ;p ), or within ... well... 800m (or whatever the range of rockets are) with a large-ship; any further and it's just a waste of time for everyone. <course, it's all about how things go down. As of now (what with the limited range of weaponry), it's more likely that a player will create a jamming torpedo while throwing more PMW's at their target.
     
  28. PilotMax Apprentice Engineer

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    181
    Why? I mean, the jump drive can go pretty much anywhere worth going in the default Star System.
     
  29. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Right now there is no incentive to build anything. You just slap a block onto any of your large grids and poof, instant FTL capabilities. There's no thought, no "interesting dynamic" to just slapping on a block and you can't really call that building or engineering anything. Secondly, it takes you multiple jumps to get to any of those planets. That is unless (and again) you slap enough of those single blocks onto your ship.

    With the games limitations (and there are many), there really is no interesting dynamic to anything. For a building game, the only thing we have in SE that no other game has are the looks. It looks pretty. But even StarMade has more playability in it at this point. Avorion is also exceeding SE in terms of playability, exploration, combat dynamic, and even visuals. But again, SE is simpler and allows you to walk through your creations (starmade) but it looks way better. You can argue for the physics; but a limitation of 100m/s is far more a detriment than any (non-functioning) rotor or piston can make up for in my mind.

    One of the potential uses of this is to also tie Gates into being able to travel to/through different solar systems. The game either needs a far larger solar system, or a truly "unlimited" world setting. Those who like to explore have nothing once they've been to the only 3 planets. Either in solo play, by randomly creating another world, or multiplayer, by allowing like servers to travel between one another (use a password if you want to keep it private). Adding a random solar system generator to the gates and then allowing you to jump to them would give players something to build towards and to explore. Unlimited universe right now has a finite range; go past the 3 planets and you have nothing but asteroids. <which is where the Gates would come in handy if there was any reason to go out that far.

    I mean, if anyone out there can give me some example of the intricate and exciting nature of the current FTL system in the game, maybe (really it was a band aide for a game engine that couldn't handle anything past 100m/s). But all I have to do is slap on a block and off I go... to 3 or 6 destinations. If you try to limit my range, I'll just slap on more of them. If there is a delay in it activating, I'll just slap on some timer blocks and multiple FTL blocks. FTL drives should be used to travel short distances (not at 100m/s) and require multiple jumps to reach any of the other planets. The gates should provide something far greater <since you actually have to build something to accommodate the design and material worth the investment into a static and easy to find target of opportunity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    I would adore if you could jump to different systems and find new planets........like some bloody reason to go and explore other than needing a sample of each ore...

    congratulations engineer! you've completed space engineers!

    I would also adore if there was a system in place to generate a universe with planets without the need to go into a creative gamemode and manually spawn them in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
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    • Agree Agree x 1
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