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Just my 5 cents after being with SE for this long.

Discussion in 'General' started by KG_Jedi, Jun 30, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. KG_Jedi Trainee Engineer

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    69
    I remember buying this game a WAAAAY back few years ago, when there even were not any heavy armor, and turrets were decorations. I played SE long enough, made a huge pile of ships (my profile https://spaceengineers.ru/user/1337)

    After playing this much, I kinda want to give some suggestion about construction mechanics in SE:

    First of all, the current construction mechanics involve a very little engineering itself. There is no need to "engineer" your ship, since it's just as easy to construct it as it is to construct something using Lego. And here is next issue - IF you want to construct something complex, you need to make it LARGE. Anyone who ever built piston-powered hangar door, or some torpedo deployment mechanisms, they know that anything that moves requires tons of free space in order to not clang and explode. This is because small and large grids are separate and cannot be merged without some pretty complex and unreliable methods (piston heads or landing gears). So....

    Can we have large and small grids merged? Dunno. People say that VRAGE cannot handle this, but I have no idea honestly. Expanding on that idea, what about actually building ship modules, instead of contructing already ready ones? I mean, we have Fusion Reactor as single block. But what if it wasn't a block, but instead it was several small pieces - nuclear cell, plating, cooling cell, heat vents, neutron reflectors. All this, if built and connected correctly, would together work as reactor and provide energy. This already would allow players to build reactors of varying size, form and efficiency. Imagine if other modules could be built like that? Ships would get smaller, but much more complex and interesting. Every ship would be truly unique, and engineering would gain a bigger role in game, called "Space Engineers".

    I am just not sure if VRAGE can handle that, but anyway, just wanted to share this...
     
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  2. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Blueprints? Tooling machines that manufacture parts needed. Ore processing to manage materials needed. Amount of materials on hand before deciding on what you can and cannot do. Not to mention you have to consider the practicality of said machine to the situation and or job needed.
     
  3. Absinthetic Trainee Engineer

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    8
    Space Engineers' problem right now is that there is nothing for players to do. There are no NPCs to discover or visit, all celestial bodies are featureless so the only reason to explore them is to find resources, barely any reasons to fight the rudimentary AI enemies, the lack of vanilla weapons makes combat quickly boring, commerce is practically non-existent, you can't grow crops, you can't go bounty-hunting, you don't smuggle anything, you don't run from the law, the universe is largely static and there's no lore for players to discuss or immerse themselves into. KG_Jedi correctly pointed out that there is no need to engineer your ship. At this point in development, I feel Space Engineers is more of a toy than a game.

    Considering how KSH changed Space Engineers' development status to Beta not too long ago, it makes me wonder if it will ever become a game at all and with things the way they are, I suspect many long-term players aren't too interested anymore. Consequently, they won't recommend the game to other people and KSH is losing potential sales.
     
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  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    What has been ignored for YEARS, is game creation. NPC deployment, procedural distribution of asteroids, resources, etc. have basically been the same for YEARS.

    It's a sandbox world and game-makers (people who design scenarios and MP servers) have to jump through lines and lines of barely documented code to even SET-UP a very limited world. The tools are very, very rough. The possibilities are VERY, very limited.

    People WILL make interesting content. But the only interesting content that can be readily made are ship/base blueprints.

    I've made a few custom worlds for servers and it requires days and days and days of set-up and testing just to even know if things WORK for even simple customized worlds.

    Keeping players interested has NOT been addressed.
     
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  5. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    213
    Achualy some youtuber did this its as easy as going into the files and changing a few thing
    The thing is keen can do it they can also make rotating planets but I guess they just dont want to do it
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    No, it's not that they don't want to. It's that they're aware of the consequences and difficulty of doing that. It may sound easy but it is most certainly not.
     
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  7. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    213
    Thats why they dont want to do it ....lol buy idk there are videoes of this rotating planet and the thing is the pla ets 1000km with asteroids

    --- Automerge ---
    Hi
     
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    What about it? The actual rotating of the planet itself is easy. It's simply changing a single matrix. However it's the concequences of that rotation which is difficult. The speed limit, which is not arbitrary but there for a reason. So you won't even be able to "catch up with the ground". Then there's the plain physics calculations of it.

    In short, the physics is getting in the way, both with the speed limit and the collision detection.
     
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  9. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    The game has to have compromisies if you want it to be playable on a wide enough range of computers. Making planets rotate is easy enough, as Malware pointed out, but consider the implications of doing that. What happens to things on the surface that are not attached to it? Then consider how that would work for online play.

    The guy who did the Saturn ring system has done some fabulous work there. I would love to see that in game, but only if it was playable without major slowdowns.

    But really...I agree 100% with the people saying SE needs more interest far more than it needs extra build complexity. It's a sandbox game with limitless possibilities but no purpose. You may as well play in creative only as the resources you need are all within a few KM of spawn points, and there is nothing to find but more of the same. Nothing new out there, no dangers, no discoveries, nothing you can't find right here.
     
  10. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    Thats what everyone sais te planets spinning at 15m/s and rotating at 40m/s youl have enought speed to catch up
     
  11. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Ahm. Aren't those asteroids spinning, bodyless 2D images? They certainly look like spinning bodyless 2D images.
     
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  12. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    213
    Well it is
    I mean after your far enought away from them they turn into a 2d image witch will cause little to no lagg and planets ic youv ever moded a planet youl realize they can get pretty big befor lagg they can go up to 2000km for me butthe lag is usualy becaus of the grass and plants
    --- Automerge ---
    There asteroids but hes in spectator so he can go through them
     
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  13. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    268
    It doesn't have to be realistic. EVE online uses backdrops and a static rendering of space (asteroid belts, etc), and it does a pretty good job of conveying it.

    Just try to do *something*.

    Even Starmade NPC / AI content puts SE to shame. Heck, No Man's Sky PVE puts SE to shame. It's like they turned off any "vision" for this title and put it on autopilot, let's finish what we've got and release it ASAP.

    I think they don't want to be known as a company that hasn't finished a single game from early access. They seem to be really rushing to finish SE, when it's really obvious that core design features are not present (some sort of procedural or otherwise AI factions, NPC trading, NPC crews, station life forms - anything that isn't a blueprint off the steam workshop, has no design whatsoever).

    Although to be fair, they never said SE would be any of these things, only an "engineering" title. But they said the same thing with ME, and it has done a 180.

    That's why I'm just focusing on the asteroids. Just at least get those right. Gotta work with what you have, not dream of the title SE isn't right now. It's not gonna help matters.

    Maybe they are just going to market this as a PVP game, where - players ARE the content.
     
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  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    I'm sorry, but you're just gonna have to accept facts. Keen aren't amateurs. They know what they're doing. The fact that they were able to make 100% destructible planets in the first place is evidence on its own. Plenty of us of the SE community are also programmers, and we've already discussed this theme to death trying to find a workable solution...

    It doesn't work. The only way it could work is to forego the "real" planet to space travel with a transition, and it would seem most of us (including me) are not ready to do that. It's just too cool to actually travel from planet to space for "real".
     
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  15. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    Isnt VRage keens creation? Maybe SE is really just a big tech demo for their game engine, which is the real product they wat to sell?
     
  16. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    They have never shown any interest in selling VRage to my knowledge. Besides, it's too niche. It's not likely to be very easy to sell. Not to mention that it's not written in a third-party-access friendly way. Not even by a long shot.
     
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  17. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    @333546323
    Yup, I've made modded planets. Custom heightmaps, custom ores etc. so I know how they work. The problem is when you start thinking about rotating them. Planets are voxels....and voxels that can be deformed. The more you deform, the more you need to do to render them. Rotating them means you have to track the location of all the things that have been altered. You also have to worry about moving objects on the surface. It all eats up resource.

    And I for one would not want to lose real planet transition in return for rotation. It's one of the things that SE has over the competition. Lose those, and you are better off with Endymion, Planet Nomads etc,
     
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  18. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    Tekkit, and From The depths are great examples of multiblock engineering. I've said for years, SE needs to implement this.
     
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  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    ...

    Is that little mistake as awesome as I think it is? Please tell me that it is...
     
  20. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    213
    There asteroids but hes in spectator
    You ahve to accsept the fact things change so what if there 100% destructable there basicalu usless I want spinnig planets there easy to do and they work
     
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  21. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    Yes, things change. The very fact that the planets themselves went from "can't do" to "doable" over the years proves that. There's no such thing as "impossible" in software engineering. However there is such a thing as time and money. Software development is a constant battle between cost and benefit, and this feature simply has a bad cost/benefit weight. It will cost far too much to make in regards to the benefits it will provide, especially for the current state of the game. I tell you this as a professional software developer myself: Yes, things change. Yes, there's always a chance this will happen, but: Given the difficulty of the task, and the benefits to gain from the task, the probability of this is miniscule. Whether you believe this fact is irrelevant, because Keen believes it.

    Prove your statement with more than just a video and I will yield. Not a second before. Like I said, making 3d stuff move and rotate is easy. Dealing with the concequences of said motion is not.

    [Edit] I just watched the video. I'm sorry to disappoint you but those asteroids are all decals, 2d images, just like @Commander Rotal said. You can see it on the very low animation speed, how the images don't match the guys rotation, and you can see it on how some of the asteroids just fade out when they get too close. You can also clearly see the bitmaps themselves when stopping the video when asteroids are very close to the camera. Oh, and the lighting. The lighting is all wrong.

    As for the "rotating planet", I see no rotation of the planet...

    Oh. I didn't notice that. The author even clearly states in the description of the video:
    Particle generator system. Particle systems usually consists of 2D images. They most certainly do not consist of complicated voxel grids...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  22. Ekuah Trainee Engineer

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    99
    Guys, you forget some more things.
    When you are thinking about rotating planets, you have to start thinking about orbital movement.
    The moons would have to rotate around their planets. Also the planets have to rotate around the sun (and not the other way around like it is now).
    And soon you will find yourself in a bunch of problems.
    How do you handle asteroids colliding with the planets?
    How do you compensate the vastly different orbital speeds?

    Right now, one thing Keen should do, is rotate the background (the skybox) with the sun. Or at least with nearly the same speed.
    That would give the illusion that you and your environment are rotating inside the universe. And not that the sun orbits around you.
     
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  23. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    Yup....that is the wonder of auto correct on my phone. It knows.....it really does! I don't even know why it has Endymion in there as a word and not Empyrion. But oddly enough, my laptop spellchecker is the same. Empyrion doesn't exist and Endymion is fine. There is a plot.....I feel it....
     
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  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,600
    From what I hear it was tried. Apparently it was nauseating...
     
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  25. Crusader Apprentice Engineer

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    177
    I don't want any planets spinning or asteroids moving... I just want a goddamned asteroid ring around planets... please..
     
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  26. dispair Apprentice Engineer

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    252
    So my two cents. Making a planet rotate sounds nice but to be honest it adds nothing to gameplay.

    I play from the depths, the way you build engines and weapons is great. I would say that it could add to gameplay.

    I find creative mode fantastic. When I play survival, it is good until I get to building my " big" ship, then I usually just delete the save. I understand why people want more.

    There are several possible fixes, I think that some nuetral vendors, a few upgrade blocks with very minor stats will add great extra content. Then a campaign with three or four factions to fight.

    Right now se is not much of a space combat game with it's low weapon variety, but that makes it all easy to balance.

    Even as Legos in space without multiplayer and no planets SE is worth the money. I honestly can see why people get so butthurt.
     
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  27. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    213
    Wow make a new descution on this I like that topic
    --- Automerge ---
    Well it kinda does it add challeng something this game needs landing on a planet wont be so easy enymore youl actualy have to build a good ship and carfuly land
     
  28. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Full stop.
    What the fuck is this shit? You want Keen to completely overhaul their code, which was built from the ground up with stationary voxels, so you can have spinning planets and orbital mechanics and shite?
    Fuck that. Go play Kerbal Space Program. If Keen took your advice the game would explode in a mess of bugs, and that's relative to today's amount.
    This is perhaps the perfect example of the entitlement culture I've been talking about lately. People want something and ignore everything else except what they want.
     
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  29. Crusader Apprentice Engineer

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    177
    What else do you expect from Canadians, lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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  30. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    For me, planets @ 10x vanilla size, do give the 'wow' factor, from the space perspective. Using 1200km wide planets in-game, whilst in space, is a really nice experience. However, at a certain distance from the planet there are glitchy problems which is unfortunate. :(
    I tried 5x vanilla size, this gives a slightly lower gaming experience, obviously, than the previous mentioned. But it is however, much better than vanilla.:tu:

    I would love to see the devs 'up the slider' of planet sizes and let the player decide if they can go, or want to go, larger or not. I would happily play with 5x, to know there are no real issues (for me), planet wise.

    Its only from the space perspective that I view larger planets as being better and indeed, for me, needed in SE.
    On the surface, 120km is more than enough 'ground' to play on. The only real problem for me is the very noticeable, curvature whilst planet-side on some vanilla planets.

    Full size planets, well Earth size are simply not needed, they add nothing to anything game-wise. They don't really give the 'wow factor' based on the speed we travel in-game. Most players will understand what I mean by that. To get that wow factor, the planet needs to be centre screen with lots of space around it. However, travelling towards an Earth size planet at vanilla speed, is pointless, every gaming session, for many days, would simply be 'travelling towards the planet'..... It takes that long... So for me, its a def no, to actual planet size...

    That said..
    Planets could and should, be larger..
    And.. they were most definitely needed in SE. As a player myself, I was very grateful Keen put planets in.. and for free.. The game is better, for having them.

    Regards what to do in SE for the player.. I have said this before and in a video I made.. SE sort of blows your mind a little. Making a game that suits every individual player, from this sandbox, is more than possible it seems. However, the time involved in doing that, does deter players. Most players simply haven't got the time to get that involved in the game.

    Keen- need to stop with adding things now and start, as they seem to be doing more-so now, in trying to stabilise what is already in-game. The game doesn't really need anything now, hasn't for a while (for me). It just needs to be very stable to play in. Plus of course perhaps, some direction for those players that need or want it. There is more or less - any and every type - of space game in here. Its just having the time in making it for yourself.. from the SE sandbox.
    That is what a good sandbox tends to give..
    The toys are all there, but the time to make the game 'is the real factor and problem' for many players.

    I have lots of time (sort of lucky and not, really) and still find it hard to make the game I want. Mainly because of stability.
    But it is time consuming. Its good, well spent time, but sometimes you just have to break away and spend time elsewhere to re-new energy, to return and continue making your game.. But again, we need stability and everything to work correctly, to do that.

    There isn't a space game out there, that gives me, my perfect space game. However, the pieces that I need for my perfect game, are more or less all in SE.. I just need stability and things to work correctly..
    Then I'll give it the time, it really deserves.. Which hopefully at some stage, will mean I end up with.. My perfect space game..
    That hopefully works and doesn't break.. Vanilla wise, that is. If I/we add mods or change things, then I/we have to accept the possible consequences..:?;)
    But vanilla should work and be stable. Perhaps it will when finished, should I live that long.. :munch:
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
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