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Large Ships: Not Viable for Survival?

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Buddymcfriend, May 20, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Crewman87 Apprentice Engineer

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    Looks like this last update was just what people needed lol.
     
  2. Buddymcfriend Trainee Engineer

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    Well howdy dootie, since that's the case, if a moderator closes this or it falls off the face of the asteroid, I'm okay!
     
  3. Shiv Trainee Engineer

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    I just recently started a game that's survival, but i imported my own starter ship instead of the yellow one. I dont mind the long weld times or mining (currently all by hand), because it's more for my own story/RP than actual function. I'm currently building a Star Trek-esque shipyard frame, and then i'll start on a survival carrier that, when completed, will move from different saves or asteroids introduced via SEToolbox. Once the flight deck is completed i can start flying mining sorties, and currently that is my goal.


    The only platform i have is a small setup with two refineries, a medbay, and gravity in the center of an asteroid so i can mine deeper into it. I lucked out and got an asteroid that matches the platform grid =)

    I'll post pics later if people so wish
     
  4. Zephandrypus Apprentice Engineer

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    Yes, large ships are definitely viable as large ship welders make it a helluva lot easier to build them.
     
  5. gazeebo Apprentice Engineer

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    I think once the game gets to the point where space exploration is viable and you actually have to watch your uranium usage, large ships will probably be viable as carriers and mobile refineries and all that.
    As of right now it's not really necessary as all the asteroids are so close to any platform
     
  6. Buddymcfriend Trainee Engineer

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    I wouldn't say that they actually make it easier. They sometimes make the process slower for some reasons. I don't know if it's the AoE of ship welding, but sometimes it takes an age when you could weld that one piece in no time with your hand.

    If I get frustrated, I usually just give the whole area I'm working on a nice good spark of the ship welder, to make sure that all the materials went from the cargo to the block, then I just do it by hand.
     
  7. Vahnkiljoy Apprentice Engineer

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    I think it's completely possible, been working on this beauty solo for like a week or so, only real help I had was getting the canopy cockpit made in the beginning. R-9A
     
  8. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    There is just as much reason to build large ships as to build stations--and it's pretty obvious that one or the other is necessary. Certainly, if you want to play with cargo ships off, in single player, and with the default close-by asteroids, you won't NEED your refinery/grinders/storage to move. But the cost of a large ship vs. a station is pretty small, and it adds convenience even with default SP settings.

    This is just as true now that welders/grinders were scaled to all sizes, so I still don't understand why there is or was something abhorrent about large ships that didn't equally apply to stations.
     
  9. Lothang Trainee Engineer

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    To me, the big difference between station and large ship is that if you need to add a hangar / module / building / platform to your station, it's don't break any kind of symmetry or aesthetic balance.

    So, as you build station bits after bits, you never feel desperate. SE tool box says my station has a built time of about 1 day. My larger ship doest not reach the 1 h built time. It's not a matter of viability, it's just about planing a quick functionnal large ship and how to upgrade it.
     
  10. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah, I dunno about you people, but I've built a two-million kilogram ship completely in survival. It only took twenty hours. (Pfff,I have audiobooks to listen to.)
     
  11. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    Yea the topic is a bad joke, or troll........

    I have many large ships in survival, suggest you frame by hand and build a welding ship, I call mine TIG !
    Weld whole thing up with TIG welder, oh turns into a bad pun, my TIG has 2 medium containers so it carries alota shite to build with and can build a lot, I have 2 TIG's so one can be filling up with parts while other is being used......

    TIG makes big ships simple as a pimple...


    [​IMG]
     
  12. Conradian Moderator

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    2,596
    Even before the latest update we have found in our server, there's a number of us, that large ships are the way to go. On our first map sure we probably could've got away without building large ships considering we had a big central station and we were mostly mining out the nearby asteroids... But our new map has a much wider scale, with asteroid clusters sitting 10km+ away from each other. We've split up and gone our separate ways for the most part, and for that large ships are not just useful, they're essential.
    One such ship is a industrial frigate/factory ship. This ship is constantly moving across the map, being a store for most of our materials, a base for our production craft, and a platform for us to build new craft on.
    Large ships are viable in survival, and essential if you play right. If you wanna sit in a close-in cluster and not go further than 300m then fine, stations and small ships are going to suit you fine. But if you're going to spread out across massive distances, you'll quickly see the need and benefits of large ships.
     
  13. Innocentblaze686 Trainee Engineer

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    It was either Last Stand Gamers or Video Sage who mentioned adding different sections of a map. If the producers put something like that in there, I think a large ship would be highly viable
     
  14. Discohydra Trainee Engineer

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    I've made a "Heavy Support Shuttle" for mining operations that resulted from EXTREMELY modifying the starter ship. Completely removed the refining and assembling capabilities. I wanted the interior room. Instead, I made it have 2 Gatling turrets for asteroid defense, and I gave it a cargo system. A large cargo container with a collector on the top, and four connectors on the bottom. It's meant to give smaller mining ships support during asteroid storms, and to serve as a waypoint so they don't have to brave an asteroid storm on the way to the station to dump ore. Made entirely of Heavy Armor so I could have lazy miners latch on for the ride. I play with multiple people, and I play on the world we've been working on for months, and there are above normal asteroid storms on it.
     
  15. UrbanLegend Apprentice Engineer

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    I sort of assumed that large ships were for building in Creative and then importing into Survival to be used as part of some larger game scenario. Like rescuing a disabled cargo ship, getting mining operations started in an asteroid field or setting up a battle between two fleets. I wouldn't expect to be able to build my 1600m long supercarrier with one dude and his hand welder in Survival mode.
     
  16. TehRoach Apprentice Engineer

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    I think the main thing to keep in mind is
    "Not if large ships are viable to build in Survival"
    but more
    "Is it Viable to build a large ship in survival at this current time"

    You must ask yourself first
    Do I need it NOW?
    Do I currently have the tools and resources to do it?
    Can I get the same results, by cutting a few minor corners?

    Is the glass half full or half empty? Neither the glass is currently 2x too big for the task :p


    I really hope the "cage" is NOT how they will finally end up doing it.
    I can't say that I like the prefab AI welding Drones either :(

    What I would really want is a few single blocks that would allow me to designate any space in a large ship/station to be my construction yard. And allow me to choose the how, when and by what the blueprint gets built eg by hand, small/large construction ship, welding arms, mega supa block of welders, migrant workers etc

    Would be really cool if the Constructor wouldn't care if you attempted to construct something that you actually didn't have space for either, as this would make for some lolz and some creative production lines.
    eg
    Forman : "You didn't bother to measure the plans before you started did you"
    Noob : "Well No I just got to work"
    Forman : "You do realize that there is NO way of getting this thing out of here"
    Noob : "Ohh yer, you are right"
    Forman : ":("
    Noob : "What are we going to do now, I have almost finished it"
    Forman : "Haha, you do realize that there is NO We in this scenario's solution"
    Noob : "What :("
    Forman : "Just wait here, I am going to run some Numbers, then we will see if it is most cost effective for you to just cut the ship into pieces to get it out of here or cut the roof off the station :p

    or

    It you could decide to have dedicated stations for producing a particular parts/sections of a ship and they get moved and merged together in another location.
    ie a production line

    or to build often damaged or lost parts quickly
    ie decoy buoys, missiles or bumper bars :p
     
  17. Zourin Apprentice Engineer

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    Large ships require a bit more forethought, time, effort, and resources, but are completely viable. Especially "Medium" ships. You're not going to be building 'superships' simply because they serve no practical purpose. There are a horribly limited number of things to do in the game, and most of them revolve completely around mining, refining, assembling, and storing material. Combat is mostly just funzies, but it's good to have a few combat craft around for capturing larger ships for salvage.

    That said, if you're building an industrial-related ship, there are a few basic steps to do to start.

    1: Take some graph paper, and sketch out the placement of the core functions. Map out the locations of drills/welders/grinders, conveyors, storage, pistons, connectors, ejectors, and anything connected to them such as refineries, assemblers, weapons, and engines. Decide if you're enclosing these features or leaving them exposed, and leave enough space for structural blocks for later. It never hurts to leave yourself extra room.

    2: Now add in 'not directly connected' objects like freestanding reactors, gyroscopes, thrusters, batteries, and get an idea of where your cockpit is. Find a fairly central location for your gravity generator (so you can tune the dimensions and minimize power drain)

    3: You should now have an 'x-ray view' of your ship's internals, possibly even a cross-section if you want elevation changes within the structure. In the game, start construction as a Station (you'll convert it to a ship when you're done) and build out the functional interiors, then begin adding the interior 'flesh' like interior walls, etc. Use temporary armor block scaffolding to sketch out where things like thrusters are going to be, and don't be afraid to break down and reorganize. It's easy when you're just throwing around 1 steel plate.

    4. Get everything placed and welded except for external armor. THEN coat your ship in armor. This will ultimately dictate the end appearance of your craft. If there aren't any space or design constraints, consider adding some extra 'features' like ridges or contours for decoration.


    In Space Engineers, function comes first. Building the Enterprise or something out of EVE Online is good inspiration, but you will never get that kind of contour fidelity out of a feasible ship design in SE, and definitely not in Survival. Your first thought shouldn't be 'what does it look like' so much as 'how much space do I need' or 'how much refining power should it have" and "how much power does it need?"

    Creative is for 'good looking ships'. Survival is about practicality first. Building 'outside in' will only frustrate you because you stop being able to easily allocate the extra space you wind up needing. If you're playing alone, there are practical limits to what you need for yourself.

    It's actually my only complaint. Once you have built everything you need to build anything you want.. wtf would I want to build that I haven't already built?
     
  18. Metric Trainee Engineer

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    After about 20 hours of survival I have an amazing mining ship, a grinding/welding ship that carries all my supplies, several assemblers and refineries attached to a giant array of solar panels defended by satellite turrets (I play with cargo ships and meteor showers) and my attack ship with a scout ship in the hanger and some cheap decoy missiles to fire at ships I want to capture.

    I really want AI to fight or the ability to travel to new sectors. That and be able to command a fleet from a bridge using labeled buttons. It's boring controlling stuff through menus when you can't see what's going on or what the thing you're controlling is doing.

    The thing I realized about large ships though, is that they're basically useless. Even with 2-3 layers of heavy armor like I have, they still get absolutely destroyed by a single rocket or a barrage of gatling gun fire before I can even get close enough for my own weapons to fire effectively. Thus the decoy missiles were born.
     
  19. Zourin Apprentice Engineer

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    Combat ships really should incorporate decoy blocks (preferably nested beneath layers of heavy armor) to distract gatling fire, and at least one turret allocated to anti-rocket defense, otherwise the incoming fire will rip you apart.

    The other major consideration is how much ammunition you have. Magnesium seems to be somewhat difficult to obtain in large quantities, and the larger the ship, the more guns, the more ammo you're going to be slinging into space at a time. The more turrets, also, the less salvage. They can't be set to disarm the enemy ship weapons, so you wind up shooting all sorts of valuable parts like solar panels and cargo containers.

    Right now, i'm on the verge of completing the design for a large ship for ore transport, complete with a fairly innovative gravity well for collecting ore debris.
     
  20. Mad Mike Apprentice Engineer

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    @ zourin

    Decoy blocks that are behind heavy armour.... that is covered by a ship welder (filled with plates). Feels like cheating and so far I have resisted it for solo.

    Turn on the welder as you start your attack run.
    In PvP I would use it without doubt...:p
     
  21. Malakeh Trainee Engineer

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    Large ships are easy to make u just need correct planning.
    Build your utility ships first!!!
    Have ur constant supply of resources.
    Study the ship u r gonna build b4 building it.
    now comes the best part make large 9x9 welder large ship and build ur ship in a layer fashion mode like u r stamping it on a piece of paper. and done!!!
    This way u could make huge ships in very little time.
     
  22. delabu Apprentice Engineer

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    I find large ships invaluable in Multiplayer Survival.

    1. They make excellent movable bases. On an MP server, a static base in a roid is raid bait. I always move my stuff wayyyyy out (up to 100km). For this a large ship with a med bay where you can spawn is essential.
    2. I try to build all my large ships, whether the base ship, a scout, or a miner, with an antenna and med bay. That way you can recover a ship if you are traveling and get disconnected (see the MP post in my sig for details).
    3. They are much better at protecting the player from sneaky players with grinders - one turret will stop such a player.
    4. A large ship miner can gather materials MUCH quicker than small ships, meaning less time exposed at the roids.
    5. With the new MP fixes, you can dock a few smalls to a large easily and carry your whole life around with you. (Large ship gear work much better than small ship gear for ship to ship docking)
    6. Even empty turrets act as a good early warning system, even when empty. If your turrets are seeking around, nothing is near. If they snap to a point and keep pointing there - SOMETHING is there. This can be real handy to know.

    Though expensive to build with regards to materials, they don't take that much longer to build, time-wise.
     
  23. Tobyz28 Apprentice Engineer

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    in a 1/1/1/1 Survival world it's all about scaling up efficiently. Using small welder ships with 3+ welders vastly improves welding speed. Did the same with grinders as well. I've created huge refinery bases to handle the creating of ship engine parts (platinum and cobalt = extremely slow to refine). First large ship i made was an asteroid crunching miner! Almost never hand weld any more. Next up - a manufacturing facility with 2 moveable walls of large welders!


    For me the problem of creating large ships in survival adds a layer of challenge and fun to the game that forces you to build in the game very differently had it not been designed that way..

    I should also add i started playing this game recently starting off in survival at all 1x settings, and jumping to these 3x/10x modes made the game way less of a challenge and way less fun :(. I did have to switch to faster refineries though as unfortunately I think i ran into a performance limitation/bug in alpha as my main production facility was... making my home server cry :(
     
  24. MegaMiner Junior Engineer

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    I've noticed that they seem to switch targets once the current target block is disabled. SO they do leave quite a bit of salvage. As for magnesim, I actally have qite a bit of it in my factory, and several thosand boxes of ammo bilt p after abot 6-8 passes throght he roid ith my mining ship. If you have any serious mining operation, magnesim sholdnt be an issue unless yo get really unlucky on the mineral spawn.
     
  25. WardenWolf Junior Engineer

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    Possible? Entirely. Practical? It depends on what you're doing with it. If you build yourself a mobile base, complete with extensive refining capabilities and docking for mining ships, then yes, it's very practical. And this can be done. It really depends entirely on what you want, though. If all you care about is a mobile base, and don't care what it looks like, you can take a 1 block thick slab, attach engines to it, and build everything else on top of that. If you want something that looks good, well, you're going to invest a lot more time and resources.
     
  26. Zourin Apprentice Engineer

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    Survival is always a matter of practicality. If you want to design or plan something, you can go into creative mode until you work out the kinks and efficiencies.

    Now that cameras/remote control is in, there's a lot of practical, efficient things you can build besides a simple 'miner' and 'refinery'.

    1: Ore Detector Satellites. The easiest would be small ship 'probe drones' with ore detectors to scout out important veins for mining ops and can be left to 'mark' them.

    2: Vehicles work better if you use a sensor to detect when its wheels pull away from the ground to fire a counterthruster.

    3: Sensors can be used to make a 'magrail' of sorts, using a line of blocks as a track.

    4. Remote control blocks are out, and can make for more efficient small mining vessels that aren't subject to nearly the same annoying bugs and design considerations as a full cockpit. Smaller tugs and welder ships are also possible for tight spaces.

    Sadly, we're missing any kind of logistics management. Everything is part of the same pools, so logical segregation of components, ore, and ingots are still not feasible.
     
  27. Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    Well, when making a very large miner, it is handier to build it using large blocks, not only do they store more materials in the drills, but they also mine a larger area and look awesome doing so.
     
  28. Agnar Apprentice Engineer

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    Welding time can be drastically reduced and you can eliminate recharging by spending 20 minutes building a welding ship...
     
  29. piddlefoot Senior Engineer

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    I frame the ship, then use my small ship welder to weld it all up in super fast time, building big ships in survival is not hard and does not take that long, you just have to be organised.

    That will probably change when we get AI hunting us !
     
  30. ghpstage Apprentice Engineer

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    Has anybody tried mounting small ship parts on a large ship via rotors and connectors in significant quantities yet??
    I'm thinking small antennas, small Gyros (do they generate the same turning force?), and other things such as timing blocks, landing gears, beacons, cameras, control panels and remote controls that are more or less the same on both small and large.
    Maybe using the small ships small conveyors to deal with ores, ingots, and small components as they are dirt cheap too.
    If the wiki is still correct then small ship medium cargo beats the stuffing out of large ships small cargo in terms of space efficiency too. It does cost more in terms of everything but iron however... worse than it suggest in the wiki

    The costs, weight and space savings of trying this could be enormous, it will add to the work needed to be done though.
     
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