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Large Ships: Not Viable for Survival?

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Buddymcfriend, May 20, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ortikon Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    338
    I have been playing the same game of SE for a long while so I started fresh with 16 asteroids and the yellow starter ship instead of my first attempt with dual platforms.
    In the first game, I built required defences for my platform and maintained the damage from asteroids whilst hastily building a large ship. This was essentially a mobile hangar for three loosely packed small ships with storage, refineries and assemblies. It was also the larger portion of my defense turrets so essentially a mobile station. I then used it to abandon the crippled station platform which was losing its battle against the asteroids as I migrated more turrets to the ship under construction within the asteroids shadow. At the time this "large ship" was built mostly from cargo salvage because at the time they where not properly shooting back. So I spent very little time actually mining.
    Deciding to try from scratch "for real" with the new cargo ships functionalities, I have found my mining operations are taken more seriously.
    This next large ship I have decided to embark on as my "endgame" of sorts (or first long-term goal/acheivement) has turned out to become about 8x the size of my last relatively easy ship to build.
    This time I am inside of an asteroid rather than a platform, everything I acquire comes from inside or from a nearby asteroid when I needed to get gold. The initial startup, I had just my miner ship and did the rest by hand to seal up the base, I focused on expanding my refining capabilities and getting a good steel plate stockpile to get the frame of the ship started.
    Backstory aside:
    -Large ships are very doable in survival if they are your primary (but relatively long term) goal.

    -They will not be done the night of their conception (as much as that moment you sat down to play SE and make that big ship by midnight seemed feasible)

    -You don't focus on it too early, and make sure you have an efficient mining system working for you to collect the materials needed. Yesterday I built a Quad-drill small miner, a Large ship collector/gravity platform, and a small ship that had three large cargo bays to take all the resources over to my main asteroid base as some required materials where easier to acquire on the other side of my large asteroid than from inside it. This mobile mining "team" is about 65% more efficient than my original Double driller that I had been using for the last two weeks.

    -Draw a concept or diagram to block out where things are going, it does not have to be accurate or artistically perfect, but making decisions will slow you down if you spend too much time visualizing without visuals. (this was a turning point for me)
    (My fx team made fun of me for making a concept of a spaceship I was going to model in SE rather than actually modeling and lighting it....but hey, modeling has only one survival mode, its called paying the bills and its not as fun as SE)
    -Start with the frame of major parts of the ship. Make large empty rooms without walls on less important rooms. If you intend to make the large ship your main refinery, consider getting a small power room running onboard and make your industrial rooms top priority. Build around it from there
    -leave room for conveyor systems especially in the deeper interiors. It might get too difficult to get a welder ship in the inner depths, so easy access to your materials is going to make things faster. Alternatively, work a service access into your designs for a smaller welder ship to fit in. I like to have a large hallway in the core of the ship accessible from the hangar.

    -for the love of god make sure the ship is secured to something, crashing into it when there is only one landing gear on it will cause sad days if you don't have thrusters and gyros on it yet.

    -Try to salvage at least one ship to get a boost on rare supplies. Private sail will earn you some expensive battery and solar parts ideal for either building or disassembling into important materials. Use these not for the large ship but for boosting your ability material acquisition efficiency, like mining upgrades etc.

    That's all I got, still working on mine, two weeks in at 3 days of work per week and 4-5 hour sessions per play. I think I am at about 30 hours into this world, and I would say I have put about 6 of those into solid build and planning time on the large ship itself.
     
  2. Aurenian Apprentice Engineer

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    373
    I find it helps to build it as a station at least until you get the thrusters operational. That way you can't send it spinning accidentally.
     
  3. GotLag Senior Engineer

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    1,114
    What kills me is the sheer amount of refinery time required to build a large large thruster.
     
  4. Ortikon Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    338
    The large thrusters where a shock, I forgot how expensive they are. approx 860 thruster components each? I placed the frames of quite a few of them already, I will try to at least get one for each of my axis of thrust to get it "moveable" and then expand from there. I hadn't placed a single block on the large ship yesterday, instead I focused entirely on material acquisition. I captured a private sail for battery and solar panel parts. It gave me a comfortable boost to my thruster components stockpile too.
     
  5. DragonEater Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    67
    Here's the trick I use.

    I made a small ship that has a grinder one one end and a welder on the other. 2x cockpits one faceing each direction, 2 medium storage boxes and a connector. Add all the misc stuff needed to run a ship and its in my builder ship.

    I lay out all the framework I need for one layer / section of ship I am building but do not weld a thing.

    Then I stock up the little ship and toggle the welder on ( See below ). Turn off the dampeners and very slowly drift along the ship welding away!

    Every once and a while I zip back to the docking port ( close by ) and refill the storage but never get out of the cockpit.

    Oh and FYI, I think it may be a bug but if you left click to turn on the welder, open the inventory, left go of the left click and close the inventory, the welder stays on with no mouse click! Click again and it shuts off and acts like normal.
     
  6. dafire Trainee Engineer

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    1
    You can also draw it in your action bar and turn it on/off properly ;)
     
  7. kristakis Junior Engineer

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    607
    It's an undocumented feature - please don't report it as a bug as I love it and don't want it to be "fixed" :D

    It happens because the Mouse Up event doesn't register when you are in an inventory screen or whatever. The advantages are that you can click to stop the welder and it'll also stop if you get out of the cockpit so it's like a safety feature. Downside is it also stops if someone leaves the server.

    Mapping a welder on/off to the action bar works but doesn't have the safety cutoff and you have to use the keyboard to stop it (the mouse is easier to reach and has larger buttons). If they could add a "Soft Latch" option to simulate the same effect, that would be acceptable.
     
  8. MegaMiner Junior Engineer

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    625
    Try building Titans (MOD) on 1-1-1. And most ships yo would bother putting them on require 4+ and 12+ Large reactors just to power them. I'm currently working on a mobile mining base ship that will use them. I'm looking at 8-12 Titans, and running the whole thing off solar power and batteries :) Maybe 1 small reactor for emergency power. BTW batteries are 8% more space efficient than large reactors.
     
  9. Comicsluvr Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    34
    I have a huge base in my Survival world. 500+ hours spent on it...every single kilo mined honestly. No cargo ship capture...no Creative mode. If I had spent the resources building a ship instead of a station I would have the Enterprise by now.

    Viable is relative. I built bridges between asteroids 800m apart. Used them to haul materials back and forth. Likely a huge waste of resources but man they were cool!
     
  10. Xakthos Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    220
    Viability hinges on a couple of things. One is time to generate usable parts, the other time to use those parts in relation to how long most are willing to spend to make their idea reality.

    Generation of parts can be increased as you go and is a bit of an avalanche effect. The more you mine, the more material, the more you can turn into more drills/storage/processing and assembling. This aspect of the game actually speeds up over time just by virtue of fact you can turn raw material into a means of gathering more raw material faster. Your main limitation is amount of material that is generated when the world is generated. This is rather limiting especially for some of the more specialized metals (mostly thinking platinum but magnesium counts too as you fire so much of that at meteors, hiding behind an asteroid only works for N size ship and removes one large asteroid of supplies from equation).

    The second is a bit of where the problem comes in. A 60x60 area is 3600 blocks flat square alone. The time welding time starts to get rather brutal. The time I have for it is 24 seconds welding . So welding it is 86,400 seconds = 1440 minutes = 24 hours. That's just time to weld it. You can finesse with more light armor or changing scale but you never get some means of really overcoming that. I can't build a faster welder no matter how many materials I have. I can build more wielders, to a point. That solution may work for exterior with large expanses but is difficult to utilize for 'detail work'. No matter how many welders I attach to my engineer ship I still hit a problem of how to apply those welders for interior. Drills are easy in comparison. I can completely wipe out asteroids at a breakneck pace. Welding is the constant limiter because you can't offset it very directly. I suspect the welding time is what would burn most players out in the end.

    Eventually you also hit a limit to how many materials are available in the current environment. That in of itself is a survival limitation at the moment that should go away as the game develops and can create more 'space' to operate in or at least produce new mine-able asteroids especially to offset materials like platinum which burn through fast. I can create a solar farm of panels to offset uranium limitations (sure takes a lot of them but it -is- doable). I can build drills to gather faster, refineries to smelt faster and more assemblers to assembler faster. I can't build out my ship faster or, without editors, go past the finite ore limit. Now there are cargo ships you can capture for materials which ensures at least -some- constant supply of additional material albeit limited.

    That said creativity can offset it some. Anyone playing this game seriously has at least some mind for problem solving. Doing it like an autoplant with welders surrounding the car (ship). Works better for small ships than titan class I suspect. Perhaps build inside to out then converting from station to ship is better approach and allows more welders to be applied. Then it'd just be detail work most likely but large blocks would mostly be done. At least the largest components like reactors, gyros and such would benefit from that and if you need 1400 gyros that would amount to lot of time saving being able to apply 20 welders at once in a grid/line pattern.
     
  11. Optiskate Trainee Engineer

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    6
    My friend and I have played around a bit in survival. We've found that if you prioritize and take care of some stuff before you start on a large ship, then things go a bit more easily. If you get your mining squared away, then resources aren't an issue. If you build bigger and better mining equipment, it certainly helps a lot. If you build support ships, such as welding/grinding ships, it also helps a lot. You can really make it easy on yourself. Then its a matter of time. Even in creative, I've got close to 20 hours designing, building, redesigning, and finally starting to assemble my big exploration/mining cargo ship. Granted, it probably dwarfs a lot of stuff you see in survival and isn't really that impressive. Its all about how you set yourself up and how much time you are willing to devote to it. I can see where in survival the large ships have uses. In fact, the pirate story thread had a lot of large ships in it and it really sounded like when implemented properly in an offensive or defensive situation, then they are worth their weight in gold. It also sounded like they took quite some time to complete and most of them were faction group efforts.
     
  12. buggsy Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    86
    Welding isn't slowing me down, and I actually kind of like welding. AI welding ships would be a bad idea.

    What's slowing us down is the lack of blueprints in survival, hand placing every single block one by one by one by one.
     
  13. NathanTheSpaceSurvivor Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    228
    Small welding AI bots that get through tight hallways, so there's a use for maintenance passages in my ships. Or just use for quicker building. Park ship close to project, bots build it, come back for more resource, grab it, build..... And then you can tell them to build mote bots which can make more bots, avalanche effect again. Also drilling bots would be awesome. Welding, grinding and drilling bots would be awesome.



    Back on the main topic, no. If you know what you are doing, no. But start small. After 1 day of survival don't plan on building a flagship straight away. In early surival try to get solar energy ASAP. Then build better resource gathering/processing/assembly equipment, and then build al the things you want. The only limits are 2 here:

    Welding time
    Amount of ore (Can be avoided by capturing cargo ships but they have defences)
     
  14. Blako Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    385
    Once I tested my concept station welders the actual welding only took around 30% of the building process, the rest being the puzzle fitting that is designing a ship.

    I have a world where I set personal rules of "no stations", 1x everything, no cargo ships, and removing of respawn ships. I was thinking of it as a test to see which would be the most difficult thing to overcome. I started with my solar starter large ship (1 refinery + 1 assembler in sig) and over time it went from one refinery to four. Still most of my refineries were working through the slow ores. I upped it to 8 refineries (in a still 1x everything world) before I made my first large reactor and large thruster which took bloody forever. After 1 million kg and three overhauls my mobile home in a (1x,1x,1x) world became:
    • 1 large cargo + 2 small cargo
    • 3 assemblers
    • 8 refineries + 1 arc furnace
    • 2 small reactors replaced by 1 large reactor
    • 1 large forward thruster + 10 small thruster
    • A hanger at the center of mass with large ship landing gears faced up to hold 5 small ships/drones.
    • Estimated resources gathered by mining = 75-85%
    • Estimated man hours = 90-150
    What I learned:
    1. I never lost a small ship when it was being held by a large gear.
    2. I loved the results from 4 forward small drills and 2 side drills.
    3. You can make a small ship with spherical gravity but is sure isn't very small.
    4. Refining platinum sucks lol.
    5. When eight refineries were processing it doubled or tripled the time it took for people to connect to the server!
    6. The first thing I need to do is invest in infrastructure that will increase my rate of production and let the exponential growth take off before building for fun.
    [​IMG]
    Cheers Oh and click the refinery calculator in my sig and play with platinum.
     
  15. Kookas Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    Having a large ship build as a goal was a great motivation for me in my survival game.

    I spent ridiculous hours a week on this game, just to gather resources and work on the design of my enormous mining ship, which is now complete and can return millions of kilograms of ore from a single trip (as well as refine it during the trip back home).

    So I'm working towards completing an asteroid base now.

    If I hadn't had a goal like that to work towards, I'd probably have got seriously bored of the game months ago.

    Admittedly, some proportion of the hours I've spent "playing the game" were actually spent sleeping or going out with the computer left on. Some things take ages to refine, even using four refineries, and then you have those construction components. That might benefit from a bit of fine-tuning, but I do kind of feel like drawing it out like that makes the end result more satisfying.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  16. goduranus Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    516
    If you lay down your ship layer by layer, instead of following a structure to detail approach, then you can use ship welder every step of the way, greatly speeding up welding process. Though to do this you need to work out what goes where in creative or on paper first.
     
  17. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    1,015
    This whole discussion shows the faultiness of expecting survival to balanced on it's own without proper scenarios.
     
  18. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,744
    This ship was built in an online game within the period of one week.

    I did not make this, it was made by one of the other players that was on the server I play on.

    It took me a lot of reassurances that I was not going to destroy anything before he would tell me where he was on the server.

    I was in the admins faction at the time, so yeah... he let me come and take screenshots of it.

    Another thing to note is that this server does not have max carry amount, it is default settings for pretty much everything.

    Building large in creative mode is most certainly doable.. you just need to collect the resources and the time to put it together.

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2014
  19. Aarius Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    13
    Try not to take my criticism personally. When I read "time between cockpit breaks it just too short", it made me wonder if you are hand welding large ships.

    Of course hand welding is not viable for large ships. It will take you 2 weeks to make a 10,000,000 ship. This is too much time, especially while you are being hunted (PvP).

    Large ships take large tools and a steady flow of resources. I have built my destroyer (medium large, 8mil Kg) on a popular 4x PvP server 3 times now (thanks to wipes.) most of the resources used were purely gained from pirating and salvaging. Welding was done with 6 welder small ships. Working solo at 1 sim speed took me 2 days for core and frame, 2 days for armor. Time will be shorter now thanks blueprints and if you invest in factory/3d printers.

    Think you need to reevaluate your strategy and economy. My faction has a no $h!+ business model, From spawn to Capitol ship, because that's what it takes. Else, you will be overwhelmed and that's no fun. :)
     
  20. russo_bolado Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    613
    I disagree. Large-scale construction is a matter of logistics. It's about balancing mining/refinery time. And creating solutions: you're a Engineer, sire!

    I agree it takes quite some time building alone, but you don't hope to build Death Star with your Hand Welder and the Refinery/Assembler in the Rescue Ship. Building Ships (dedicated ships with Welder/Grinder tools) can speed up construction, while additional Refineries/Arc Furnaces can decrease refinery time. Cargo ships can also be salvaged for parts.

    As time goes, you'll be able to find the right balance for your game pace.
     
  21. moomin Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    84
    Totally worth it!! On my server the asteroids are switched off,.. and in order to avoid the random joiners when im asleep I like to live far away from the asteroids..

    So first off i built a little platform on an asteroid as base of operations (read: platform to build my first drill) as soon as i had that going i immediatly started building on my space station 15k away.

    Slowly built in the factories etc (Telos has 5 refineries, 3 arc furnacces and 6 assemblers) plus reactors etc etc.

    Convert it to ship,.. now i have a movable base!!
    Once the neighborhood becomes crappy (im server admin as well perhaps that's the reason people always want to live near me) i just move.


    Underneath a picture of telos at the crosshair is a small hangarbay with 2 welders and 2 grinders.
    All made in survival before blueprints etc.


    [​IMG]
     
  22. Samsonguy920 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    245
    My first large ship is mostly composed of cargo ships I salvaged over time(before Business Shipment and Private Sail got armed), which considerably aided in its construction, especially with the likes of reactors and beacons which use heavy parts. Now I am spending time refitting and improving it for a nice design to port over to my first Exploration Update map. With Projectors now available, I can rebuild my large ship in about half the time(Business Shipments are still pretty easy to snag for salvage, and they now come with turrets with ammo), and have it ready to fly as my first official prospector. I am looking forward to the many hours I will spend mining asteroids that I will have parked next to, repairing small to large damage from impacts and battles with roving cargo vessels, and discovering many new things yet to come.
    I definitely encourage everyone to get started building a large ship now, one equipped to act as a general purpose explorer with a refinery, assembler, and a few turrets for defense, and of course a large refinery to power it all. Once you get that built in your first exploration world, you can definitely start working to looking for that one place to set up your main base of operations, whether it be in an asteroid field or on/in a planetoid, and build your fleet to conquer the surrounding space.
    I, myself, am going to go the Destiny(of Stargate Universe) approach, and just visit each little place that appears, explore, restock resources, repair, and then move on to the next point of interest. (One hopes that by then Keen will have at least tamed if not worked out the inevitable floating point errors that will occur with long distance travel in a world.)
     
  23. Insignus Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    138
    This is an interesting discussion that I've had with myself several times now. I'll reprint my ramblings here for your consumption. Or ignore them. I feel like being helpful :shrug:

    Firstly, I'd like to throw out that experience and design testing is very important, and speeds up not only the utility but also the efficiency of your builds. Build a ship, let people blow it up. Rinse, repeat. When you blow up someone elses ship, be courteous and give them feedback on what made it easier or harder to blow it up. Never be afraid to copy design principles, but give credit.

    Secondly: Know why you're building. If you walk into a large ship build with no clear idea of what the ship needs to do, you will get crippled by feature creep, and you'll start adding hangars you don't need, weapons that won't ever conceivably shoot, assemblers that are never online, etc. The exception to this is vanity builds, test beds, and clown boats (Ships that are designed for humorous multiplayer excursions). For example, the one I'm working on now is getting very large, but only because it has been persistent for a while, because I use it to tack on design concepts for testing purposes.

    Thirdly: Start small, and get your routines down. If you're working in a team, you need to assign roles. If not, figure out where you'll get things, if you're going to use a station to host your resources, will you be using a mobile sled, or will you be making an in progress carrier? Design your logistics before you start your design.

    Also, keep in mind that past a certain point (About 9-12) more drills does not implicitly mean more resources. Also, will you be getting a return based on your drill arrangement, or will you be constantly repairing and replacing drills because the design is so unstable that you're vibrating into the shaft wall every run, and thus losing time?

    Fourth: Everything you build must be pushed. Beware of the thruster death spiral, especially on large military ships. This often occurs in tandem with feature creep, as well as "Armor Mania" and "Turret Fetish" in which the incessant design to uparmor or upgun a design leaves it with dramatically underpowered movement. The exception to this is ships such as carriers and motherships, which can deploy ships to extend their range. Otherwise you may find it hard to track and engage enemies.

    Fifth: When possible, one deep components, especially internally. This means that you can remove one block and get at any of your major components (Ammo loops, connectors, launchers, etc). This will massively reduce your down times after fights or collisions. The exception to this is thrusters and armor components on warships

    Six: Armor quantity is not a substitute for armor placement, or for an armoring system. There are many different methods for armoring a ship. Which one you use for one which area of your ship is not a death pact, unless you want to submit your ship for exploration mode, and thus need to conform to the silly developer rules regarding style and prettiness.

    As a final, general rule: prioritize your armor on anything you need to move or fight. Use light armor or ultralight (Windows, grates, etc.) on docking ports, recovery systems, etc. Use heavy spaced armor on major structural components, reactors, and the command deck. Medium (Which is made by using either a composite light/heavy sandwich or spaced light armor walls) armor works best for cargo areas, deep conveyor junctions, and assemblers.

    Seven: Pay attention to your weapon system placement and ammo consumption. There are entire threads on this, but visualize and plan for how your ship will attack and how it will defend itself (Is it going to be a fast corvette that evades missiles, an armored behemoth that turns and shrugs them off, or will you use an active defense system?)

    Finally, learn the geometry of turrets, especially your gatling turrets. Plan for overlapping fire sectors, and adjust your ranges and angles to prevent them from all locking onto the same target at once.


    Eight: Redundancy to a point: Conveyors should be looped to prevent ammo shortages, and you will need an extra assembler/refinery set if you're building a mothership or carrier, but other than that, don't worry about it unless you're playing with griefers or people who like to unintentionally ram things.


    Nine: Ugliness doesn't mean you're a bad designer - it merely means prettiness is not a design value. Some of the best design ever have been epic eyesores. Its not about how cool or pretty it looks. If it gets the job done and is still flying, you won.
     
  24. Zourin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    142
    in the end, large ships (and stations) are very viable. However, you cannot skip building smaller utility ships, especially the miners and welders, that are required to support that level of construction

    There are only four criteria for which a large ship can be considered functional:
    1. Storage capacity. Having a high storage capacity enables larger amounts of ore (and to a lesser extent processed ore) to be stored for processing or transported to processing facilities
    2. Processing capacity. Refining power involves having high conversion throughputs of ore into a processed state. I normally reserve this for a station, out of habit.
    3. Hangar capacity & station interface. Can it store/transport ships? Can it interface with stations or other ships in your fleet?
    4. Combat worthiness. Armor, gun coverage, capture and tow.

    I've omitted station-class versions of utility functions (large mining, grinder facilities and 3d-printing) because they usually involve more work than you get out of them in the end that a smaller ship can handle just fine. Unless you want a 'large' welder ship that can produce its own steel plates :idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2014
  25. tharkus Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    712
    i think some people here are lazy and crying, stop it and start mining and welding. :p no offense intended.
     
  26. PaladinX333 Apprentice Engineer

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    234
    Now with unlimited procedurally generated asteroids, you could make something truly massive. The ship could, in theory, be large enough to eat entire asteroids. The biggest problem would be dealing with all the stone. You have no idea how much I hate the stone in this game...
     
  27. Latsabb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,019
    Just dont mine stone. Use right click drill to shake off the stone. Sure, you will always end up with a bit, but not that much.
     
  28. Xakthos Apprentice Engineer

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    220
    You could always pack the stone into a merge block attached cargo container and then toss that container off into space. If you were really into the concept, attach a small thruster on override/full power and a reactor with .01 uranium to ensure it goes far away and is either eventually cleaned up by the server trash cleanup, hits something and explodes or otherwise gets away from the direction you are going.


    With the projector, combined with pretty much infinite materials now while large ships will take a while they are very doable. Build a few support ships (welding etc) to handle the big stuff then do the detail work as you are cruising to the next asteroid. I walk around remodeling my ship while flying around 30-50 through space while once in while popping into the camera I keep on front of my massive exploration ship (I love taking someone's ship from workshop, building it in game, then redoing aspects of it to suit).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2014
  29. TheNirl Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    97
    The way the game seems to be heading, feasible or not, it seems we do need mobile factories, to keep up with resource demand...
     
  30. Captain_Brian Apprentice Engineer

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    253
    I usually shove them into a connector and the jettison them into space behind my ship.
     
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