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Medbay revamp and exploit closing.

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Geneticus, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Geneticus

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    This method severely restricts medbay teleport exploits as the teleport either consumes a clone (which takes an hour to manufacture) or puts the player in a compromised position with no personal weapons, reduced speeds and the inability to pilot until they can make clones in a new Home medbay. It also remembers the game is based on mining and making things and adds more basic mechanics to the game for depth and immersion.

    It addresses several issues with the current respawn system:
    • It prevents/penalizes weaponizing chain deaths.
    • It prevents "Free resource" drops as the new ship at original spawn is deleted on cockpit exit.
    • It gives the player an ability to prepare for eventual deaths and in the circumstance where a player does not want to be a faulty droid, they can choose to take "permadeath" if they so choose.

    Player choices under this system are:
    1. Pre-Pay resources (as Insurance by making clone templates)
    2. Post Pay - spawn with debuff penalties until a new clone is made as a Faulty Android.
    3. No Pay - lose inventory and spawn again at your start location with no tools while preserving GPS and ownership. Recovery can be planned for by leaving cache or outpost.
    4. Total Loss - start over and lose all existing GPS and block ownership with spawn in random location.

    Basic mechanics:
    • Medbay is also an assembler that can only make clone templates (maybe stim packs someday :p ).
    • Clone takes 1 hr to manufacture.
    • Medbay has a max inventory of 3 clones per person (Can hold clones for multiple players). Must be protected as it's loss can be devastating to a faction!!! Multiple Medbays are recommended for factions.
    • Clones can only be used from the Home medbay.
    • Clones can be transferred via container to another med bay, but are perma locked to the player that created them.
    • Only 1 medbay can be marked as Home at a time.(must be set from Panel on the block, not via the terminal).(Prevents teleport exploit)
    Supporting mechanics (Depth and Immersion):
    • Material to make clones comes from "biomass" on planets(Grass/dirt voxels), or "biomass" could be engineered in space as a separate process.
    • Oxygen Farms could convert Stone and Ice to biomass very slowly but do not produce O2 while making Biomass or another block could be added for this purpose.
    • Clone Template recipe includes resources for basic tools/ammo.

    If the player dies with a clone available:

    • clone is deducted from inventory
    • player spawns at medbay as normal with basic tools (tool cost is part of clone cost)

    If the player runs out of clones or was killed by "Backspace key to the head" :
    A)
    They can spawn as a Faulty Android while a new clone is built at the Home medbay, with
    • Debuff - X% reduced capabilities.(fuel/energy capacity, tool speeds, run speed, inventory, etc),
    • Cannot use cockpits, or weapons. (Can pilot drones via suit antenna)
    • Cannot grind enemy blocks (only owned by me, and unowned)
    • Droid tools can be disassembled for a 0.001 Iron return but take 30 minutes to disassemble per tool. (No Free Resource exploit)

    B) Player can choose to respawn in a temp ship at their original location which is deleted as soon as they exit the seat. (If the Home Medbay is inaccessible/destroyed, out of power, etc,) (Partial one way teleport exploit, but player loses corpse inventory, impact minimal)

    C) The player can choose to respawn in a random location (permadeath) with any existing owned blocks transferring to the majority owner of other grids or unowned if there are no other block owners. It also clears out all GPS points.for that player. (This it to mitigate a dead player's faction from being attacked by their own nearby turrets set to target neutral)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  2. PLPM

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    I have a doubt; In case your ship gets destroyed and you die (losing the the home medbay you had)

    The options are;
    Perma-death?
    Starting anew?
    Sudden genesis of a ship along with you? (Losing your corpse an invetory)

    Is there any other option?
     
  3. Phoenix84

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    Instead of radically changing the respawn system that which, to be honest, will not happen, I have an alternate:

    Use timers, like what the respawn ships currently have.

    There are two big issues that really just need to be solved:
    1) Throwing bodies at cargo ships until they are captured (or other enemies)
    2) Teleporting

    These can both be mitigated by adding a timer (or as I'll describe, two)

    Here's how I think the timers should work:

    Main respawn timer:
    • Each spawn starts a countdown. This countdown would start at a reasonable value, say 2 minutes.
    • This timer would start counting after spawn, so it counts down while you play.
    • If you die after the countdown expires, you can respawn right away, and timer resets
    • If player die before the countdown expires, players has to wait until it completes.
      • Upon spawn, timer resets, and increases (could be 2x time, or add X minutes).
      • In the above example, timer increases to 4 minutes
      • If the player doesn't want to wait, they can opt for a fresh start, losing ownership of previous grids
    • If the timer expires while player is playing, and it was increased previously, the timer length will decrease
      • This could either drop down progressively, or cut straight down to the starting value
    • EDIT: Alternatively, a cooldown system could be used after timer expiration. If the timer expires, you can now spawn, but there will be an internal cooldown until your respawn timer length resets.
    Teleportation Timer:
    • A separate timer will be maintained teleportation, separate from the main respawn counter.
    • Each teleport will increase this timer by a value proportional to the distance traveled (for example, teleporting 30km would add 5 minutes, teleporting 500km would add 30 min)
      • Teleporting to any other medbay than the closest usable will not be allowed until the timer expires.
        • If the closest medbay becomes unavailable, the respawn will be allowed even if the timer hasn't expired, but subject to the same distance timer increase.
          • This will be added to the remaining time, and the player won't be able to teleport again for even longer, to prevent removal of medbay exploit. This will force the player to choose another medbay closer to where they are, or wait for a friend to rebuild it.
          • This rule probably won't be popular, please provide alternate suggestions if so.
      • This allows you to teleport to friends to play, but not exploit the system as easy to teleport all over the world
    • Teleportation mods will need to be taken into account for this, to allow respawn changes. This could be either by detection of the player location at death, and show appropriate medbays and timers, based on where they are, or some way for mods to flag the respawn system to refresh itself.
    EDIT:
    This system has several advantages:
    1) Closest to existing system, less to learn
    2) Easy for new players, so they don't have to figure out how to build clones, or respawn 'charges'.
    3) Permadeath is not required, as long as you are willing to wait.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  4. Geneticus

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    Starting back where you originally spawned. Building a base nearby or leaving yourself a cache can be planned for ahead of time.
    If you are on a server in a faction, you can always call your faction mates for a rescue.
     
  5. sioxernic

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    @Everyone

    You are overcomplicating this massively...

    OP... Your system is massively annoying to early game, but essentially who cares in the late game. It is also a super overly complicated system for absolutely no real reason..

    This might be cool to an Eve Player (Which by the way, also has massively simplified a lot of their game systems as they found out, to few people likes to overly complicated stuff)

    @Phoenix84 Your suggestion is kind of the same, it is overcomplicated for no reason.

    Simple system:

    Base Respawn Time: Just the base respawn time to base the formula on.
    Respawn Penalty: A penalty that is added each time you die, which slowly decreases over time.
    Distance: Just, in the base unit the game uses (I think it is meters)
    Distance Factor: The factor that the distance is multiplied by (very low number) which could potentially be a server setting (Multiply by 0 and you get yourself no penalty for distance similar to now)
    Respawn Time Factor: A save / server setting to increase or decrease respawn time as a simple number. (To be fair, could also just edit the base respawn time)

    Each medbay has a different respawn timer, just this formula: ((Base Respawn Time ^ Respawn penalty) * Distance * Distance Factor) * Respawn Time Factor (A new setting?)

    Boom, you have something that allows you to teleport wherever you want to fucking go, it penalizes dying over and over again, and it makes it so teleporting around at least takes time.
    You can even add a button to the Medbay for "teleports" that doesn't create a body, for the "immersion" effect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  6. Phoenix84

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    @sioxernic, I think we're kind of on the same page. Though I don't see how my solution is that complicated from the player's perspective. All the player sees is a timer. You respawn too fast you get a timer, you respawn too far away you get a timer. Nothing more complicated than that.
    My explanation of the internal implementation isn't relative to how the player would see it.
    My explanation was there to detail how it works, and to cover the edge cases I could think of.

    I don't really understand the details of your scenario, what is a 'respawn multipler'? You don't use that in your equation (unless that's supposed to be 'respawn penalty').
    You mix up the different items, so it's not clear how it works. It looks like you have to wait for a time every time you respawn, regardless.

    EDIT: If you could clear up the confusion, it might make more sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  7. PLPM

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    Your option does look more simple, but it is confusing in its wording.
    I don`t find it too diferent from Phoenix`s.
     
  8. sioxernic

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    @Phoenix84 @PLPM Reworded for clarity. Sorry a bit sick with headaches so keeping a coherent thought is a little hard.

    @Phoenix84 Also yours is more complicated just due to having separate teleportion and respawn timer.

     
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  9. Malware

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    Use the medbay simply as a spawn point, don't try to make it an ingame lore because that rarely works. Make it so the mere existence of a medbay makes it a spawn point - it doesn't even have to be finished, even just the frame is enough. Remove all forms of choice on respawn - you simply respawn at the nearest medbay. The only way to get to the respawn dialog is to completely destroy all your medbays.


    The obvious (and massive) flaw here is that you only need a steel plate (or whatever it is) to create a spawn point anywhere :(


    What if the medbay must be fully created first to be registered as a spawn point, and then it will function as such until fully destroyed?

    Nah. Won't work either.


    Seems like noone has an acceptable suggestion yet - meaning a suggestion without some kind of serious flaw or simply something that a good deal of players will simply dislike...

    (Timers = pointless wait = bad)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  10. sioxernic

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    The problem is every other way beyond timers creates the whole "Really bad early, to easy to deal with late"

    Not being able to teleport is also a problem, since you do actually have to move for hours to get between bases sometimes.
     
  11. Malware

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    Hence my statement about "noone has an acceptable suggestion"... since everything has a serious flaw.

    I don't call that a problem. That's what the jump drive is for. That's what it was made for. If you haven't got that, you shouldn't create your bases so far apart. And if your bases is so far apart it takes hours even with the jump drive, well - that's your problem, you chose that - deal with the concequences. Once again: One shouldn't plan ones builds around exploits. You never know when they'll get fixed. And yes, the teleporting is an exploit. That much is quite established ;)
     
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  12. Corundum Guy

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    I don't have a solution, just throwing out an idea: What if the resource costs or any other penalties for respawning (if one indeed wants those*) were to increase over the course of the game, tied to either
    a) the time the player has spent in a world
    b) the number of times the player has respawned already
    c) the number of blocks the player owns?

    That would make respawning cheap early and costly late in game. There are problems with either, of course:
    a) con: the ever running timer puts you under pressure to build/mine and thus penalizes you for just exploring
    b) pro: is largely in the players hands con: still tough if you have bad luck early on, trivial if you're careful
    c) pro: self-adjusts to your status, even if you lose your stuff. Con: Can be tricked with grids owned by noone.

    Like I said I don't have a solution, but maybe someone can think of a better way?

    *I don't play MP, so personally I don't use respawn penalties anyway. I would like the medbay to optionally(!) use biomatter in survival, but that's mostly an immersion thing for me...

    Edit: spelling
     
  13. halipatsui

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    What if all of blocks player owns would receive small damage penalty?
    It could be seen as deterioration as parts are not maintained when engineer is dead.
    (Or damage penalty to ships but not to stations? This would encourage setting up a home base)
    This penalty would also scale nicely to late game.
    Especially if components destroyed would be random.
    Butbi also think penalty like this should be optional in the world settings.
     
  14. sioxernic

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    Then if someone doesn't follow the progression that Keen sets out will have a really hard time.
     
  15. halipatsui

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    If penalty is small damage to all of your blocks the punishment will slowly rank up as you build more stuff
     
  16. sioxernic

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    I bet no one would like that.
     
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  17. PLPM

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    Alright...

    So let`s say we take the "closest med bay" approach, this medbay would necessarily be fully constructed by a player character or a faction memeber; automatic welders wouldn`t do at that. This would still allow a one way trip to far off medbay, or a complete freedom if you have faction members to build medbays for you. Someone would still need to remain behind to reconstruct the medbay you destroyed.

    I guess we could also add biomass along other requirements to the equation, so it does have a cost.

    And in cases you have a lot of medbays, it does mean you need to account for them and potentially be vulnerable to an attack meanwhile.

    This would still allow teleportation, but on strict terms and with a sacrifice, along with allowing you to respawn quickly if you have the resources.
     
  18. sioxernic

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    Nope.
    You just need an antenna network and/or a timer based setup to reweld it, so more things would have to be implemented to close that exploit.
    This is exactly the reason I wrote the above to OP, because if there is a cost associated it becomes 100% inconsequential in late game, while it is a much bigger issue in early game, not removing the exploit at all, all it does is move the exploit to later in the game.

    And in a very unintuitive way, that in at least multiplayer, will be a big issue because a person knowing they can do this gains a massive advantage, while it is obscure enough of a thing that people might not consider it.
     
  19. Levits

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    Thought we discussed this exact thing in another thread... And it was pretty well fixed.

    1: You must touch (as in your character must touch) the completed medbay after it has been constructed. End of loop-hole.

    2: The only medbay that you can spawn at is "the closest one possible". Having multiple "active" medbays around you is going to keep you from going very far. End of teleporting vast distances back and forth.

    This means:

    A: You can no longer have a friend or "automated" system rebuild the medbay AND make it active for you.

    B: You can have a one-way trip to the far off reaches of space (Optional: with a respawn timer being adjusted < based on distance), but you will have to physically travel back to get back to where you came from.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  20. sioxernic

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    @Levits

    And we disagree on fixing the "loop hole" this way, as being able to "teleport vast distances" is very important for more casual players... Having to travel 30 minutes from planet to planet just to have structures on both planets (even in SP) is going to be a fucking bitch.
     
  21. PLPM

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    ...

    I´d need a faction member to stay behind so he could rebuild the medbay, I specifically said that welders wouldn´t do. You´d need a player specifically to activate the medbay for it to work.

    Why the hell would I build a base that is 30 minutes away from me? For what purpose? I don´t see the strategic advantage of having your grids so far apart, especially in SP.

    I really don´t see the problem with not being able to teleport around like I´m the master of the universe, moreso for SP.
     
  22. sioxernic

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    Because some people like building stuff on different planets not for strategic purposes but because they like to build.

    That is like asking someone why they build a pretty ship, because it being pretty has no purpose, and it has no strategic advantage?

    People might not like it, but distances are incredibly far in SE, and it takes A LONG TIME to get from place to place, ESPECIALLY if it is planetbound (since landing takes time) and therefor if people don't have an option to get around faster than that, they will most likely get really annoyed with the game.


    I have no problem with teleporting, I have a problem with teleporting every 5 minutes though.

    I think there are three groups of people here looking at this "exploit" problem:
    1) Sees being able to teleport as an exploit.
    2) Sees being able to teleport easily as an exploit.
    3) Sees being able to spawn at anywhere BUT your last place as an exploit (permadeath if you die after the medbay was destroyed).

    I think Group 1) and Group 3) is looking at the game as being more hardcore than it is, and I think those two groups being catered to would make a lot of the more casual players (you know, the ones that don't go on the forum, and is the major population of the player base, from a statistical likelihood) quit early, give bad reviews or just in general, enjoy the game a lot less.

    This is, no matter how much people want to make this into a PvP game, more of a sandbox build things game, even in MP most of the time. If you remove teleportation who the fuck would go to see anyones constructions? What's the point? You would have to travel for up to an hour to see other peoples things... So essentially it could reduce the amount of player interaction from little to NONE! on some servers...

    Also when

    This is not really a question of "But PvP!" because it also affects more PvE and build focused servers.
    And then someone will inevitably say: "But just another tick box" and to that I will say.... Why? Don't we have enough? I say, get a good middle ground solution, one that makes it less easy to teleport around vast distances, penalizes you for repeated deaths and doesn't cost resources and doesn't force you to be at one med bay.
     
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  23. PLPM

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    Well. From my perspective, you´d be -or anyone in such case who does it- at fault for having bases apart by 30 minutes of travel time. I simply find it arbitrary to say "whelp, screw it, I´m going to teleport to the other side of the solar system because I built a base over there"

    It´s just a free "get out of jail" card.

    I just can´t relate to your affliction. Yes, getting in or out of planets is a pain and traveling in general too. But when I see someone complain that they built their bases 30 minutes apart... and well, that they´re 30 minutes apart, that´s the nature of the beast.

    It´s just... cheap, it makes things that shouldn´t be trivial at all, be trivial.
     
  24. sioxernic

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    And the person that wants an Earth and Mars base, and is a casual? He is now going to say: "Whelp.... Okay... screw this game..." or he will say: "Whelp... Okay... screw my dream... because... fuck it..."

    The problem here is, the MAJORITY of players are not hardcore players, the majority is "filthy" casuals...

    It also disincentivize player interaction even further in the game, because as I said, showing other people your creations, trading, etc, becomes harder because a lot longer travel times for small things.

    It is not as simple of an issue as "get out of jail" card.

    Wtf? No it doesn't... The amount of volume of ore you need to be able to move is freaking insane, and every time you teleport you do not teleport ore... It is still not super kawai-desu easy to do anything, the difference is just you can build stuff further apart... I still agree that it should not be instant, but it definitely shouldn't be impossible.

    SE is about THE SHIPS, the ORE, the MATERIALS... Those things never come with you... No matter how much you can teleport around you still cannot transport materials across the galaxy by clicking backspace.
     
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  25. Malware

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    That is so much bullshit, both the hint towards that all casuals use teleportation - even that the majority of casuals use teleportation - and your indication that we consider casuals "filthy". That adds an adversarial tone that's simply not there and is uncalled for. You have no idea whether "the majority of players" use teleportation, casual or not, any more than I (we) know that they don't. Besides which, it doesn't matter. If they dislike it so bad they leave, then let them. I think you'll find most of them will just grumble a little bit and then go on playing, I seriously doubt this is going to cause a mass exodus...

    You have your belief of who "the majority" is. I have mine. I believe the majority wants a game. With the rules that implies.

    No, there won't be a lot longer travel times. A little longer, sure, but not much. It will make a reason for people to have jump-capable ships: It will add gameplay. You talk about trading? With the teleportation you can only trade what you can carry. With ships, you can trade big.

    If the current jump drive range is too low, it'll be a hell of a lot better to increase that than to keep a cheaty exploit that is also part of the fact that death is currently cheap and pointless in this game - something I have every confidence will be fixed eventually.
     
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  26. sioxernic

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    I didn't hint towards that.
    I said the majority of players are casuals...
    That was an internet joke.
    Yes there will be.

    It takes a minimum of 6 minutes to get out of a planetary gravity well, and it takes a minimum of 6 minutes to get down to a planet as well. That is an ABSOLUTE minimum of 12 minutes.

    Now they also need a small large ship with minimum weight or one stacked with jump drives, and if they have that perfect combo you are looking at 13 minutes travel time from a planet to another.
    As a minimum, not accounting for badly built ships.

    No, you can go to a place, see something or a ship someone has built, and then set up a trade, which I have already done on MP servers.

    No....
    It is NOT...

    That is the problem of a lot of games with exploration elements in general, jump drives is essential fast travel and it can quickly make a game that is expansive feel incredibly small. Why even have the limitation of jumping in a grav well then? Because it is still a minimum 12-13 minute travel from one planet to another. I don't see that as a problem (and I would prefer if the travel time is higher honestly), until you don't have have teleportation, then that travel time can quickly become grueling just to do basic maintenance and look at stuff for 2 minutes at a little base.

    The SE way of allowing teleportation allows you to teleport around to check up on ships and/or facilities around the map, just real quick to deal with that and then you can go back to the gameplay.

    This whole of idea of removing teleportation will also make everything even more localized, because why build bases anywhere now? Just stick to one single place, that is a good idea.
     
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  27. Levits

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    Use a mod. There's a nice "teleporter mod" for all your fast-travel problems.
     
  28. sioxernic

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    Use a mod to disable all of your fast-travel problems?
     
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  29. Corundum Guy

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    So what if there was a vanilla teleporter? That would allow different rulesets for the medbay and the teleporter, both of which could be balanced, modded and enabled/disabled independently from each other.
    Obviously Keen has limited resources and can't add a new block for everything. (And we already have the jump drive for similar gameplay-reasons). Wether this addition is worth the resources depends on how many players use/need it. And that, I at least, don't know.

    Edit: Grammar
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  30. PLPM

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    "Make a game that feels expansive feel incredibly small" that´s why I ticked your post as funny.

    That is EXACTLY what the teleport- *ahem* Medbay does. And the cost of it is? Insignificant.
    In fact, I could argue that this is a better way to motivate player interaction. Because they would no longer be able teleport around like if they´re in the Q continum, you´d be incentivized to not build things so far away, -at least not without preparation for it- thus, players could end less spread out as an outcome.

    I´d like to understand your take on trading, because I can´t see how it works in Vanilla SE with what we have.

    And I´d consider myself a casual, and yet I still don´t like the idea of a teleportation at my whim, we can´t simply pull out arguments out of our backside, I myself have had a very specific experience with servers and players that you haven´t had and viceversa.
     
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