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more efficient ship tools to go with are better hand tools?

Discussion in 'General' started by Kilroy 2, Mar 9, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Kilroy 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    161
    i was working in survival last night with one of my friends on grinding down a ship i was using a small ship with two grinder heads. he went out of his way to built the elite grinder and was able to run circles around the small ship... even though he had to keep running back and forth between a cargo cube and where we were working he was done in like half the time.. this feels wrong to me... thoughts?
     
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  2. VanGoghComplex Apprentice Engineer

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    I think they should add modules for upgrades to ship tools, but they should do it right this time.

    Add variance. Add different modules for different tasks. Don't just stair-step it from weak to strong, because then all you've done is given everyone the strongest version and cluttered their assembler queue menu and g-menu.

    Ideas for ship tool upgrade modules:

    Gas welding module: Allows faster welding, but consumes hydrogen gas. (Low rate of consumption compared to thrusters; an O2 gen should be able to supply a few welders.) Must be plumbed to a hydrogen gas supply, be it a tank or a gen.

    Dual gas welding module: Fastest welding available, but uses both hydrogen and oxygen to function. See above.

    Precision welding module: has a pinpoint AOE like the hand welder instead of the ship's standard spread, but welds much faster; on par with the elite hand welder in speed.

    Demolition grinder module: overpowers the grinders for faster disassembly, at a penalty: 50% of recovered steel components are returned as scrap and must be reprocessed to be usable again. (Non-steel components come out intact. Scrap steel recovered should be enough to rebuild lost components: no material loss.)

    Breeching grinder module: component recovery does not function at all with this grinder; all parts are irreparably destroyed. It works incredibly fast, though. This grinder is more of a weapon than a tool.

    Precise grinder module: see precise welder module above; same concept.

    The only tiered thing they got right on the first pass was the rifle. Everything else they tiered was done wrong.
     
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  3. EstebanLB Trainee Engineer

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    62
    I was about tu suggest the exact same thing. I started the Crashed Ship escenario and proceeded to make a hole in the asteroid and build a base in there to be safe from meteor storms. I was able to build elite tools with easily adquired materials (platinium is ver common compared to magnesium or gold), by that point, even a 3 grinder small ship was like 2 times slower than the elite grinder tool. What is even worse is that the toold shake was making it even more difficult to use a grinder ship

    So, and adjustable power consumption or an upgradable ship tool should be considered, modules ports and blocks could be created and used, but in a way that can be easily attached without altering much the ship's design
     
  4. StuffYouFear Apprentice Engineer

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    416
    Ive always felt it should have gone
    -Normal Rifle
    -Slower Precise Rifle
    -Faster Less Precise Rifle
    Without adding a elite that invaladates all others.

    How it really should have gone is(in order of power)

    -Sidearm
    -Rifle(current ingame one)
    -Shotgun
    -Boltaction sniper rifle with normal scope
    -Boltaction sniper rifle with platium enhanced scope(lacks 1970s scan lines and in full tecnocolor)
    -Grenade lanucher
    -Sholder mounted SAM with target painter
    -BFG9000
    -A small cargo container that fits in your hand filled with rocks, throwable.
     
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  5. g0vernor Apprentice Engineer

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    141
    Gotta add to this, that I haven't used the small ship for building in months, partly because welding with hand is way more precise and faster. I don't mind circling back and fourth, when I save a lot of time. Besides, with a small welder ship, it takes time to build it, it takes resources, energy, and I am constantly worried of breaking it. I see no point to use a welding ship myself, and it is kind of a bummer, because It would make sense that a ship is faster than by hand, but sadly it isn't.

    The gas welder module above would be super cool: with both oxy and hydro routed in, it could create a lot more sparks which is cool. The oxy and hydro welder module should double (triple?) the speed and weld 2 blocks deep, not the 1 block that the regulars do, and keep the weld range/area the same as stock welder. As far as I can see, there are really only 3 factors an upgrade could modify: range, as how large area it can weld, depth, as how many layers it can weld, and speed, which is how fast a block should be completed.
     
  6. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    Long time not playing survival, but I think you can grind/weld 4 blocks at once now, maybe this upgrades should be first, starting with a very short front reach and only 1 block affected and very slow grinding/welding. So higher tiers will be more blocks affected at once, and far reaching, and more speed. Maybe also more durability, resist to impact
     
  7. EstebanLB Trainee Engineer

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    62
    When welding multiple blocks, the welding speed is divided by the ammounts of blocks beign welded, so there is no net gain in that situation
     
  8. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    I like the idea of upgrade modules, but for ship blocks they should absolutely follow the model already set by the refinery+assembler modules.
     
  9. VanGoghComplex Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    Hm, power efficiency, productivity and effectiveness?

    Power efficiency and productivity are pretty clear, but how would effectiveness apply to welder and grinder blocks? I like the idea of adding those "general" types of performance enhancement modules, but it'd be really neat to see some specialized types too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    The modules are already selective in which ones can work for what blocks. Effectiveness only works on Refineries because it involves "getting more out than you put in" to some degree. So, presumably, welders and grinders would only be able to make use of Power and Speed modules, same as the Assembler.

    Unique upgrade modules that fill very particular niches sound like something better for mods to take care of.

    EDIT: Alternatively, they could do what they did for their example mod and make tool-specific upgrade modules that fit the established "generalized" system; maybe Speed, Range, and Power?
     
  11. WhiteWeasel Senior Engineer

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    1,086
    I support the idea of upgrade modules for tools. One thing I would like to note is they should be an inline module (with a built in conveyor tube). Because when building a tool based ship, if the upgrade module only worked with being side mounted, what would make them a worthwhile alternative to just placing another tool there?
     
  12. VanGoghComplex Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    I think I understand why you want to avoid specific things, bit don't think your suggestion is terribly different than just tiering the tools the same way they tiered the hand tools. Which was wrong.

    If it goes "add module -> tool is better" then all you've effectively done is given everyone better tools that take up a bit more space. I prefer the idea that we have different modules that will make tools better at some things and worse at others.
     
  13. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

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    1,130
    I'm not apposed to upgrade modules but a ship grinder should faster than any hand tool out of the box, it is way bigger and connected to a conveyor system.

    If there are upgrade modules they should be the size of the conveyor tube extension thingy, that is 1x3x3 so as to not extend ship designs so much and cause ships to get really long. Or just upgrade the grinder itself without the need for an upgrade block.
     
  14. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    I don't consider that viable due to how it runs counter to existing game mechanics. The game is a block-based building game where each block has a set function; we already have upgrades that make blocks more powerful, and they're relatively bulky affairs that you need to find space for in your builds. That should apply to tools, as well (although I agree that inline upgrades with conveyors would be good).

    It's why I don't really like the idea some people pitch about blocks that you can upgrade/skimp on by building them with different grades of components.
     
  15. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    The problem is that those are really niche, and Space Engineers largely avoids "niche" blocks; everything has a set purpose, but they can be combined and utilized in different ways to fill many roles. It makes far more sense to accomplish roughly the same thing by letting people choose between what basic upgrades to focus on. You want a really quick but short-range welder? Stack the maximum number of speed modules. Same goes for a "breaching" grinder. You want something for large construction projects? Use range upgrades so you can build more at once, with maybe a speed upgrade thrown in.
     
  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Upgrade modules on tools will result in extreme bulk for small grids and render it very hard to stack tools.

    Even inline upgrade modules are going to be huge, will they be 1 block thick for small grids? Or the size of large conveyors? etc.

    In contrast upgrade modules are very easy to fit to refineries, and moderately so to assemblers. They are also not especially important on assemblers.

    The upgraded hand tools are NOT faster than ship welding/grinding on X1 because you have to make a huge number of trips.

    People should stop using high inventory multiplyers as a reference point for balancing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    That rather depends on implementation, but yeah, upgrade modules that make tools better taking up more space makes total sense as a trade-off. Depending on the upgrades, they might even offset the lower number of tools that could be used in tandem. For instance, if you used "range" upgrades you could afford to use less welders.
     
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,826
    I would rebalance the hand tools. I would make them less energy efficient and drain energy from the suit faster. The elite welder should also consume a reasonable amount of hydrogen as fuel. The elite stuff should not be as energy efficient as the base models.

    I would like to see more upgrade modules in the game for ships and stations as well. I would make them very expensive so as to give some balance. Sure you can upgrade your turret or your grinder, but it's going to cost you bub. So when do you spring for the upgrade? Decisions like that enhance the playing experience as the player has to manage resources to achieve these upgrades and may have to sacrifice a lot if he/she wants them early on as an advantage. Anything that forks gameplay adds interest.
     
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  19. VanGoghComplex Apprentice Engineer

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    246
    I don't find the modules I listed to be "niche" at all, but they were just suggestions. The pattern they follow though, that your suggestion does not, is that in order to gain something you have to lose something. A grinder that works five times faster should do so at some cost, and it shouldn't be power; power is such a throwaway resource in SE it's laughable. A welder that works 5 times faster or over a larger area or whatever should cost something extra to use.

    That's just my opinion, of course, and it's formed mostly of disappointment in the current "tiered" tools.
     
  20. StuffYouFear Apprentice Engineer

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    416
    One way that tools could be balanced is as the teir of the tool rises so does it's space requierment in your inventory.
    We all toss our drills into storage at frist chance cause it takes up to much space, but even if we are not going to use our weilder or grinder we take it along because they require almost not cost to inventory.
    I think a moderate combination of the ideas presented by everyone here would do wonders for game play balance, not that we have anything to balance survival with as it is basicly time sink vs creative.
     
  21. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

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    1,130
    I only play on 1x and you should try it because it is still way faster to grind with an upgraded hand tool with trips than it is to grind with a ship. Another poster above stated this and said even with trips it was still faster. Try grinding down a small ship with an elite hand grinder and a ship grinder.
     
  22. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I have tried it, it's quite simply NOT faster, not by any metric because of the huge number of trips involved.

    The only way it could be made faster is with a grav scoop to collect floating objects after they've been rejected by a full inventory. Otherwise a grinding ship will always win. Grinding ships can also be semi-automated.

    If you're grinding down a small grid in bulk, you're simply playing survival wrong from an efficiency/effectiveness standpoint. Small grids are not worth savaging except for the thrusters, reactors and cockpits. Throw the rest of the steel/Ni bits away.
     
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  23. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    It's fine if they take up space, but they are generally pretty lame options based on the ones we currently have.

    For refineries, 4x effectiveness module is basically mandantory, no other options are really worthwhile except if you're just huffing iron.

    For welders/grinders there really can only be two choices: area and speed but the question is, how do you balance them between grids? If you make them volume-equivalent to the large grid (which has a min size of 1x1x1), the modules for small grids are HUGE, or they will be so marginal to not be worth it. Enough to increase the length of compact small grid ships by like 25%.
     
  24. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I can see no situation where you would ever want to upgrade a turret vs building a whole extra turret because turrets are best served by redundancy.

    The only exceptions being range or accuracy, but meaningful upgrades of either property would make weapon modules MANDANTORY, not nice to have.
     
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  25. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

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    2,818
    Long-term? Yes. When you're just starting out, Power modules are way more handy.

    Why would they not just come in different sizes for large and small grids? Small-grid welders have the benefit of being small and manouverable already, whereas large-grid welders require far larger ships supporting them and are usually better for printers and repair stations.

    Hell, making the tool upgrade modules only available for small grids is an option.
     
  26. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

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    1,130
    How long are your trips? I set my grinder ship down right next to what I'm grinding with my hand tool and all I have to do is turn to offload the cargo to a cargo hatch on my ship. There are no "trips..." and no grav scoops. So it is WAY faster to hand grind small ships, especially their armor blocks. When's the last time you tried it? I just finished capturing a pirate base on earth like so collecting drone bits is fresh in my mind.

    I'm playing survival wrong? Are you the dictator of SE? I don't like cluttered bits of small ships all over. Is that a crime?
     
  27. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I park right next to the target to grind as well. When you need to access inventory every few seconds to grind one large-grid heavy armor block you're not saving any time. Especially when you can stack 10-20 large grid grinders before you start crushing sim speed.

    And most importantly, it can be automated....so even less time.

    Yes you're playing survival wrong. No I'm not the dictator of SE, however you are complaining about the effectiveness/efficiency of hand grinding vs ship grinding so there is an objective metric of both of those parameters.

    Grinding down anything other than reactors and thrusters off a small grid is a provable waste of time because you can spend that same amount of time getting more of the same resources. Trash collection deals with unpowered bits of ship once you move away from the location, so there is no need to "clean up". The game does it for you.
     
  28. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Power is technically more efficient on an energy basis for extracting U on a purely refinery basis, however eff modules dramatically cus down on the amount of miner flying, which ultimately burns more U.

    I cannot think of a single survival playthrough where I've been so strapped for U that I've needed to run power modules. I've always gone straight to effectiveness without problem, and that lets you ramp up much faster by seriously cutting down the amount of mining trips you need to make.

    Frankly, I've really just never been strapped for power outside of that one attempt I made at a planetary start and found myself in a location with zero boulder spawns for like 100 km. Especially now that you've got drones to gank at 20 refined U a piece.

    They could come in different sizes, but then volume scaled-potency might either make the large one insanely good, or the small grid one so weak to be useless.

    Oxy gens for instance suffer from this problem already, which was resolved by simply making the small grid one have a smaller yield but insanely higher output for it's size. Ultimately not balanced either.
     
  29. Kilroy 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    161
    so we were playing with 3x inventory size and 2x grind speed. but he was still faster with the elite grinder than i was with my small grid dual grinder ship when breaking down the large grid ship. Though my build partner last night did admit that instead of going back to the main LCC he just would dump stuff in my small ship MCC.... lol :p
     
  30. fourthquantum Senior Engineer

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    1,286
    When Keen added the elite grinder they did not look at how it may effect gameplay, they just added it. The fact that keen did not look at the utility of ship based grinders when adding the elite grinder to the game is concerning and reinforces the point that keen do not consider gameplay dynamics enough.

    They are not playing their game in its entirety.
     
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